Breeding ethics

[Gr33nSanta]

Looks like we are all on the same page. I have always tried to give credit to the original breeder, either by combining the names in the new cross or simply repeating the lineage over and over again.

But you get to a point where you got to shorten the names, among my most worked lines, I am germinating seeds right now that are Neroli91 X ((Blue City Diesel X Dr. Grinspoon) Selfed (I think) X (SLK X Blockhead) If I start more than a few beans I might spend half an hour writing on tags lol.

Anyway, in all of my seed lines, there are only a handful of breeders. My most important lines contain at least one cultivar from one of the following breeder; Jordan of the Island, Subcool, Bodhi, Archive, Chimera, Reggae seeds, . They are the main one in my collection for now. We all have a different list, but I just honored the ones in mine, I am free to art.

 

[Dr. Purpur]

Years ago Nevil asked me to get Mango Haze before the parents were , or could be lost. I did. I crossed that to a S1 of the very first OG Kush from very long ago. ( we found that seed in San Francisco, from a bud dealer that got it from Humboldt The S1 was very old when we got it about 8 years ago, but it popped. That plant looked like a dinosaur, with kneecaps where each branch came out. The buds were phenomenal. No lemon pledge flavor, just pure OG, and super strong clean high


We made OGMango Haze. It belongs to us. We rarely share it, and only with serious restrictions. We wouldn't sell that cut for 20 grand, and would have to think about it for 30K. Of course, for 40K you can have my first born........ Just kiddin

 

[Zeez]

Looking good Doctor.

 

[DJXX]

great to have a place for this subject, its always cluttering up other threads..thanks Hova..DJXX

 

[NEED 4 SEED]

What I feel about all this, I think everybody should be free to do whatever they want to do with their seeds once bought. But they also should give credits to the breeder when breeding further and I see this more with the new generation of breeders. All the old ones don't give you the information you want about their mother and father plants, let alone pictures of them. I can only assume they got something to hide. Are their parent plants not up to todays standards or are they "stolen" genetics or from someone they don't want to mention anymore or maybe they aren't the same plants anymore or never have been what they told you about it? Only they know but I see an overall increase of willingness to share USEFUL breeding information from the newer breeders. At least they tell you nowadays that its mostly polyhybrids and show them off.
Everyone who tells you genetics should be locked away they need to be told that they have already started with seeds from some other breeder. Even more so landraces, I saw people claiming in some other thread, landraces should be hoarded. Well thats not the idea of a landrace, period.

I wanna add that I dislike how a lot of breeders/hacks today slap one hybrid onto another give them fancy names even before they are created and sell them right away without testing to make quick money. This leads to an oversaturation of the market and a decline in quality and many good strains will drown in this sea of offerings. Most of the breeders today have too many "strains", which btw. aren't strains at all, in my opinion. A strain, for me, has to have some kind of stability in wanted traits.

 

[stoney917]

It's not that complicated if you buy it from a public source it's yours to do as you see fit. Breeder released it it's out there... if ya use it give credit where it's do .
If it was gifted ask permission.
If there was some sort of personal deal as far as breeding rights go done with animals all the time , Just be a man of your word...
And as far as hacking expensive packs ...fuck it if you pay several hundred dollars for a pack of seeds and you want to release another gen and sell it for 25 50 bucks go for it, not everyone has money like some of us do, it's a whole different market and these ppl deserve a good blueberry or cookie sumthin to...nobody who drops serious money on a pack a seeds does it blind they know what they buying and will still spend there money on originals and a bunch of f2s , but the ppl who buy the cheaper ones can't buy the originals and should have affordable access....
S1someones known work without asking is fuct up
S1 a rare cut that's dependent on the history and intentions. Do it for money charging hundreds . u an ass , do it to spread some genes out there and charge low price to cover costs I'm fine with...

As far as any of this shit goes it's just like anything else just be a man of your word don't do scumbag shit ..

BUT TODAY is different everything out the window, when us criminals ran this shit none of today's nonsense was tolerated , it was much smaller do to risk and kept 90%of today's marijuana related businesses out the game..new young generation is fucked all soft weak mentally and physically, self entitled, whining bitches , and it's our fault for making them that way, letting our kids opinions matter and it's to late to do shit bout it now. Wait a few more years... lil xan or some other tranny running for president... but weed will be legal in all 50 states... until it's totally illegal cause china runs the world...rotfflmao...

 

[Mustafunk]

Since genetics are often shared and passed along, I think it all comes about don't do others what you won't like others to do to you and common sense. And of course, respect any wishes, conditions or restrictions in case they exist. Being a man of word is priceless nowadays and you will earn people's respect because you have some integrity.

Also there is a big difference between buying genetics and obtaining them from someone else who shared them with you as a gift or during a trade. Everything must be discussed in detail in order to avoid any misunderstanding, especially when someone has intentions to do further commercial breeding with those.

• This is especially true when people/breeders are sharing their seeds, after depositing their trust on you. In this case, asking for their blessing or any restrictions is not just mandatory, it's common sense actually, a matter of respect for the trust they have put in you. Especially since there is no regulation like in the case of using music samples or texts from someone else for your own work, so it's a matter of ethics, honor and respect.
  
  
• In case you pay for the seeds, I guess you could do whatever you feel... after all, they have been released in return of a certain sum of money you have paid for them, be it big or small. Normally breeders are happy to see how others are using their creations for their own projects. But again credit is mandatory, because you are using someone else's work as a foundation for your own.
  
  
• On the other hand, another different case comes when someone is buying X strain from a company and then reproducing it and selling his own F2 seeds, taking advantage on the reputation of the original breeder/company and all the work he may have invested on those. This is wack, a different case will be when companies dissapear or a certain breeder gives you his blessing to carry on and distribute his genetics, like what Swami did with Greengene's Cherry Bomb for example and many breeders sharing genetics, clones and so on. But I still believe in this case giving them out as a freebies with your work is way more classy.
  
  
• Another important point that's often missed is transparency with lineages and pedigrees, source of them, history and any other useful information. This is the only way to make sure the info is passed and no one manipulates it to his own benefit. And of course, always credit where the genetics come from and who were the originators. It's important to give credit when due, even if you won't make money with those. Respect those who came before you and contributed.
  

Anyway asking is always free and a safe way to avoid hard feelings, dramas or misunderstandings. While you will earn people's respect.

Sometimes people don't realize someone may have invested a lot of time, dedication and so on in order to maintain or even source his genetics. Be it the case of those who have maintained and cherished certain genetics for years, those who travelled abroad to source them or even those who have invested a lot of time and dedication on networking or building their career in order to have access to the right people or genetics. It's all the same.

Things may change as regulation does as well... gene banks and pland breeders often use transfer releases and contracts when they pass germplasm or plant material to someone else. This is the most convenient way to do things in a professional way IMO, at least in the case of commercial use of genetics. Terms are written and everyone signs the conditions, so everything is crystal clear.

It's sad but because most people seem to have a selfish approach and may stab you in the back if needed, things are changing and most people no longer trusts like back in the days. As usual, greedy people ruin everything.

In this case, genetics are the raw material we may use for developing our own creations and works. So this is an important topic for sure. Recongnizing the work and contributions from others before us is a must.

Peace.

 

[sourpuss]

I agree with the golden rule. Find it applies across everything in life. Always ask. Never hurts to ask. Ive only got encouragement from breeders when asked. I think breeders understand that most wont pop enough seed anyway to do any real breeding and is more for preservation. Most pollen chuckers will take 2 completely different strains and hope for the best. Without any real thought beforehand. Is just a crap shoot of muddied genetics anyway. Similar to a bushweed seed with no real unique flavour.

 

[Gr33nSanta]

I agree with the golden rule. Find it applies across everything in life. Always ask. Never hurts to ask. Ive only got encouragement from breeders when asked. I think breeders understand that most wont pop enough seed anyway to do any real breeding and is more for preservation. Most pollen chuckers will take 2 completely different strains and hope for the best. Without any real thought beforehand. Is just a crap shoot of muddied genetics anyway. Similar to a bushweed seed with no real unique flavour.

define real breeding?

In my pollen chucking, I slowly get to know my lines, or the ones that produce good females. Over time, my memory is accumulating a great repertoire of smells, highs, plant structure.... helping me understand the plant more every day.

I do not like to be stagnant, I like to keep moving. That is one thing that small scale can beat large scale. I do not need to grow many females to know whether a line has potential or not.

If you start with great genetics, the breeder and the breeder's breeder have already done the hard work.

You simply pick up where they left off. Once you get to the point where your work is so removed from the original breeders and that you feel very confident that you have something special, you could make loads of seeds, pretend that the seeds are straight fire, the kill, are you still a pollen chucker or are you now a breeder? where is the line?

Anyone producing seeds with potential for killer weed is a breeder in my opinion, though I refer to myself as a pollen chucker not to upset anyone

 

[Easy7]

It sure as shit gives a better promise of quality when stating exactly what the heritage is. Who the lines came from.

From a consumer perspective and buisiness perspective, not bullshitting around hiding facts treats everyone proper.

Is it really something special or just putting yourself in the seed biz?

 

[Gr33nSanta]

To be clear, I have no desire to get in the seed biz. A truly special plant is what I am after. If I succeed, I will gladly share and hope people do not forget where it came from, that s all!

 

[Miraculous Meds]

To make something with seeds you have purchased is totally fine. that's how the people that sold them to you got started, or they were given to them, or they found them from the earth. they weren't born with seeds in their butthole. So making seeds from what you purchased is fine. Now like some have mentioned already, when someone has built a brand around their work, and you just make f2's and use their branding to sell your seeds, that's stealing from their hard work.


Now im a Dj short fan. And Dj has been in this situation and spoken about it several times. What I said is basically where hes coming from. Make whatever you want, hell he even released his mother plants. Just don't make knockoffs of dj short bb, and sell it. at least not till the guys dead or retired. Otherwise your just living on his coat tails of work. Make them, grow them, give them away.


But I also understand Stoneys perspective, that people that want originals, are gonna source them and pay up for them. And somebody like dj, isn't exactly easy to get originals since you have to get them from him, not seed banks. So if you want to grow bb and cant get in contact with dj, what are your choices? Theres many knock off bb varieties for sale. How bout working a deal with the breeder and giving a %. Nobody does it, you know why, cause there is no law or punishment for not paying the original breeder. So if you want to make your own bb, then add something of value that you like with an outcross if your going to sell it, and call it your own bb name. Then credit the lineage accurately. That would be a fine way to go about it. But the people just making copies of others works that are still selling, would be prosecuted and lose all their money for copyright infringement. It will be a giant mess when fed legalization happens, billions of dollars to be settled, and the lawyers win again.


If your one of those people that say well, some cant afford them, or some don't have access to obtain them, and you feel bad for those people, and want them to have access to those genetics. Why not make the seed and just give it to them, instead of calling them the original name, and making f2's of them, to sell at a really low price, cause all the work you had into it was buying a pack of seeds, and growing a couple plants.


I usually don't respond to threads like this, cause inevitably it offers an opportunity for the knock off people to come here and state their case, basically spreading their word to sell their knockoffs. I think its important to discuss though, so people can get more educated on the subject. So thanks for asking it again.

 

[beanz]

lets start with what breeders consider too be fair ( most breeders )
make f2 is ok , if your don,t make profit from them , or use then too profit without permission .
if you want to make money from the line , take it several generations and put a different spin on it from the original .

most don,t like in house crosses being made of there brands , but anything go,s crossing with another strain outside there branding

messing with testers and making seed is certainly frowned upon .

I think these all are pretty reasonable , theres some that we hear have unrealistic expectations and think they can sell there product and keep restrictions on it . lets face it most of us are just canna fans and if we make seed we share it with our fellow friends and profit doesnt even enter our minds .

I think some breeders are realising , being greedy and trying to put restrictions on everything just makes them look bad , the weed world is evolving and people views on sharing is changing and helping others ....its not about ego anymore for some . there will always be seed sales for breeders if there work is good , regardless if people make seed of there product or not . one bad egg spoils it sometimes and rips and breeder off and profits from there line in raw form , but its not an out of control thing imo . ( it gets put in a thread soon enough who that breeder was and does them more harm than good normally )


my personal views , if you paid for it ....do what you want ( sept profiting ), finding off spring In f2 is likely too take you down a different road unless its super stable line . I Paid big money for some seed first thing I,m doing it making more seed , 10 seeds is not enough for me I don,t keep clones so seeds is my asset or investment . sometimes paying upwards of 300 US I,m certainly going reproduce more to make my money go further . its not even that ...also the effort to get some seeds is a hop skip and a jump also , its not a matter of walking into the corner store , it takes me several weeks or sometimes months and help from friends to even get a strain .

anything gifted , is given the utmost respect...... end off .
not even shared with friends if that is what is asked or seeds made of it .... nothing .
asume nothing with gifted seeds , always ask .

 

[JohnnyChicago]

My personal opinion is that real true breeding is only when you start your work with landraces, heavy inbred strains or when you know extactly the genetical background of the plants you are using.

And a breeder that does not test a strain before releasing it, is no more a real breeder for me. It's not because you have been successful in breeding a few strains in the past (and crossing these with elite cuts), that this gives you the right to use the paying customers of your expensive seeds, as beta-testers.

A lot of people have been scammed by one of the most respected breeders, that was hyping his own untested strain for month before releasing it on SB. Then released it slowly. Few packs first, then another few and so on. But obviuosly he is to much respected here on the forum to be criticized for hyping untested crosses. He probably did share a lot of seeds with the right people or/and people do scare to loose their realationship with this well respected breeder. Thats how it seem to work in this business.

What I really would love to see is more breeders and seed sellers donating a small % their benefit to the medical MMJ research.

 

[zachrockbadenof]

there are 'breeders' on seedbay/elsewhere who are selling 20-30-50 diff seeds... how could this be??? do they have 20-30-50 diff rooms to be sure that the pollen from one is not pollinating another. when they go from one room to another are they changing clothes so not to bring it into another room..

in 20yrs of growing, i can count the number of 'breeders' on one hand... and mite even have a finger or two left...

 

[Natural high]

there are 'breeders' on seedbay/elsewhere who are selling 20-30-50 diff seeds... how could this be??? do they have 20-30-50 diff rooms to be sure that the pollen from one is not pollinating another. when they go from one room to another are they changing clothes so not to bring it into another room..

Yes unless they are a very big and secure operation then there is bound to be some cross contamination. This is the reason why the odd male has been reported in some feminized seeds.

 

[Yard dog]

Yes unless they are a very big and secure operation then there is bound to be some cross contamination. This is the reason why the odd male has been reported in some feminized seeds.

Maybe you should put alleged reason rather than reason? or have people had proof they have a Y in there?

 

[VenturaHwy]

What is legal or who owns the genetics? That is the real quesion. Or is the name copyrighted? I don't believe anyone owns anything legally except a name they may have copyrighted.

So anything more than this means nothing. If you payed for the seeds they are yours. If someone gives you a clone with restrictions keep your word.

Remember, Zuckerberg did not come up with the idea for Fakebook. He stole the idea. What were the names of the guys he stole it from? I only know because I like the movie.

 

[Natural high]

Maybe you should put alleged reason rather than reason? or have people had proof they have a Y in there?

Yeah sorry I was only talking about true males. The XX "males" are another story.

 

[mushroombrew]

Seems like you guys all agree that using someones seed stock is ok if you acknowledge the original breeder.

But that is not what gets everybody bent.

It's the clones gents. Someone gets a clone that wasn't supposed to be passed and breeds with it. I have Josey's Sour Dubb. I am not supposed to. Mis labled clone. So if I release an S1 I am a dickhead basically.

Any idea how much drama the Corey cut created? Wow. Oh there is an S1 being made standby for the shit slinging.

And in this clone x clone era the beef is big.

I found a bomb copper chem male. The best I have ever seen in a chem line. Who was the first guy to hear about it? GU I emailed him pics.

I am line breeding. Ever heard of it?? LOL! My current pop is 150. Still "small" I will be picking the stinkers for a terp line breed. Will take 2yrs before seeds are ready for release.

I will only sell seeds that produce 2-3 phenos. Not 127 phenos like the latest Purple Punch x GMO cross.

For me breeding is all in the males. Fem seed was a way of breeders not releasing their males. but fem x fem(poly x poly) is causing issues already. Loads of herms, N sensitivity and 127 phenos. Also Fem crosses around f8 are not looking to hot.

Modern poly's are mutating pretty bad. Another decade of this and many breeders will have garbage muddled genetics. Eventually poly x poly becomes sterile. Mule OG.

I pick very symmetrical structure in my males. I find they are always diploid.

I see a lot of talk on IG about fem only breeding. I do not believe it is a sustainable practice.

Males for the win.