The last organic soil grow that I did I got 1.2gpw growing 6 SSSDH so I'm a believer but my life is much easier now with coco and synthetic nutes lol.
Peace,
HGO
Peace,
HGO
Alright while all you guys have fun ripping my boy fred a new asshole I'm going to correct ya'll on some things. First off, as usual fred is right (any of ya wanna try and argue with my results? I don't just say the man has been teaching me things for nearly 20 years to hear myself talk. I don't know fred in real life. Never met the guy, but you know what, he has had a HUGE influence on my ability to produce like I do) that synthetic nutes produce more than chem (assume both gardens are completely dialed here), but his explanation, as usual, leaves a bit to be desired.
he's influenced my growing a lot too... and then when I disagreed he took to trolling me. At first it was just him telling me what's best for me, right? Now he goes around to other people's threads dropping mine and Veg's names for no apparent reason other than to be a troll. That's how his post got deleted from your thread. Because he was trolling.
It's true that organics are capable of producing the preverbal 2lbs+ per light just like chems (I do it with both regularly), the catch in that is that it takes longer to VEG them to get that yield. That is where chems pull ahead in the yield department (crops per year So before you guys continue to run your mouths and put the man down, maybe you should get the proper experience under your belt first.
you know better than this D. Numbers dictate yield!
Bobble you know you're my boy, and I love ya bro :friends:, but you are arguing with people that were doing this shit on a commercial scale when you were still getting your ass wiped for you. That, and you are trying to make your argument with second hand information, not your own experience, makes your argument null and void in my eyes.
with all due respect I have an organic garden with 3 crops under my belt. Freds grew with maxi bloom and gh 3 part as the story goes... so where's his first hand experience? I doubt all of his experience due to his claims to be an authority on all things cannabis related... When in fact he's not, nobody has ever met him, and he has no pictures! Just claims that are backed up with other people's threads! I really felt like a fool when I realized who I had been taking advice from, and I understand the urge to defend him. A lot of his tips were good, but a lot are terrible, like running your room in the high 80's low 90's to get the plants to cannibalize themselves. Bad info.
All that said if you find organics to be an easier route to getting your desired yield (no real surprise considering your difficulties managing nute strength and ph within the media), then far be it from me to stop you. Just don't think for a second that I won't hop in as usual to correct you when you are putting up incorrect information No hard feelings on my end, just facts.......
Alright while all you guys have fun ripping my boy fred a new asshole I'm going to correct ya'll on some things.
So before you guys continue to run your mouths and put the man down, maybe you should get the proper experience under your belt first.
I don't just say the man has been teaching me things for nearly 20 years to hear myself talk.
That, and you are trying to make your argument with second hand information, not your own experience,
Bobble you know you're my boy, and I love ya bro
No hard feelings on my end, just facts.......
Hi mister_d
All of bubbleheads information is peer reviewed published studies. Can you please explain how all these researchers are wrong and only DHF is right?
Peer reviewed studies on what plants exactly? Not everything transfers over from one plant species to another. And don't make me start quoting posts where bobble is using "bro science", cuz I assure you not "all" of his information is based on peer reviewed studies.
Difference in veg time because you use different nutrients?
Can you please explain this phenomenon to me?
Absolutely. It has to do with availability. Chem nutes are immediately available where as organic nutes have to be processed by the micro life in the soil first. It's this immediate availability that gives some of the speed advantage in veg. That along with chem growers generally using medias with a higher air capacity (coco, water, hydrotron, etc, all veg plants much faster than dirt). That is an observable fact noticed by any grower that has properly done both. No studies needed to see that difference, it's very obvious.
On one hand you say NPK is NPK and the source doesn't matter, on the other hand synthetic NPK grows plants faster, but once they flower, it doesn't matter organic or chem it will produce the same result...
Sounds like a lot of bro science dialage Medville talk to me.
Molecularly speaking once it reaches the inside of your plants roots, NPK is NPK. However one comes in an immediately available form while the other still needs processing. It's the availability that makes the difference in veg speed. No bro science there.
In my most recent indoor grow, I planted clones after 10 days of propagation , 1 week under T5s and 4 days under 10,000w. In total 21 days of vegetative growth. I include propagation in veg time.
I have 3 different varieties in there now and will see over 2 per lamp on them.
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Originally Posted by Mister_D
Alright while all you guys have fun ripping my boy fred a new asshole I'm going to correct ya'll on some things. First off, as usual fred is right (any of ya wanna try and argue with my results? I don't just say the man has been teaching me things for nearly 20 years to hear myself talk. I don't know fred in real life. Never met the guy, but you know what, he has had a HUGE influence on my ability to produce like I do) that synthetic nutes produce more than chem (assume both gardens are completely dialed here), but his explanation, as usual, leaves a bit to be desired.
he's influenced my growing a lot too... and then when I disagreed he took to trolling me. At first it was just him telling me what's best for me, right? Now he goes around to other people's threads dropping mine and Veg's names for no apparent reason other than to be a troll. That's how his post got deleted from your thread. Because he was trolling.
I made clear long ago how I felt about you two bickering. It's childish to say the very least, and to be perfectly honest I've lost a bit of respect for both of you over it.........
It's true that organics are capable of producing the preverbal 2lbs+ per light just like chems (I do it with both regularly), the catch in that is that it takes longer to VEG them to get that yield. That is where chems pull ahead in the yield department (crops per year So before you guys continue to run your mouths and put the man down, maybe you should get the proper experience under your belt first.
you know better than this D. Numbers dictate yield!
Numbers do dictate yield, but you guys constantly miss why that is. Less veg time means more crops per year, which all else equal means greater yield. Fred is nothing short of terrible at "completely" explaining most concepts, so ya it's easy to say the man is contradicting himself, lying, or just plain wrong. I honestly can't remember reading anything freds has been wrong about in 20 years. There have been many times, especially early in my grow career, where I felt he was full of shit. However knowing what I know now, I see he just didn't share everything needed to be successful with a certain technique. Difficult to do in a single post anyway, but also very typical of people coming from his time period. Not saying he does or doesn't do it on purpose, but I have yet to see him be completely wrong about something. That's not to say that it hasn't happened, but I haven't seen it. If I did I'd be on his ass just like I'm on anyone else I see posting incorrect information.
Bobble you know you're my boy, and I love ya bro, but you are arguing with people that were doing this shit on a commercial scale when you were still getting your ass wiped for you. That, and you are trying to make your argument with second hand information, not your own experience, makes your argument null and void in my eyes.
with all due respect I have an organic garden with 3 crops under my belt. Freds grew with maxi bloom and gh 3 part as the story goes... so where's his first hand experience? I doubt all of his experience due to his claims to be an authority on all things cannabis related... When in fact he's not, nobody has ever met him, and he has no pictures! Just claims that are backed up with other people's threads! I really felt like a fool when I realized who I had been taking advice from, and I understand the urge to defend him. A lot of his tips were good, but a lot are terrible, like running your room in the high 80's low 90's to get the plants to cannibalize themselves. Bad info.
First off, I think you misunderstand my reasons behind defending him. It's not because he's my bro, you and me disagree all the time, and we're friends too. I don't pull punches with anybody, if I think your right or wrong I'll explain why. The who in the situation is irrelevant. The best growers I know have never taken a picture of their crops. I believe this is in large part due to them coming from a time where growing meant long prison sentences, medical/legal was a pipe dream for most of these guys (fred included). Trying being in that state of mind for 30 years and then tell me how many pictures you toss up (oh and move to the deep south where they toss you in prison for years over a single joint). As for the room being in the high 80's, low 90's being bad advice, just take a closer look at jackmayoffer's grow and then try to make that argument . There's more to it than just upping the temps, everything else has to be inline also (VPD, nutes, air flow, etc). You know all those little things we keep talking about dialing in, they all have to be dialed to take advantage of the benefits. Having even one aspect out of line can cause shit to fuck up real fast when trying to use advanced techniques.
All that said if you find organics to be an easier route to getting your desired yield (no real surprise considering your difficulties managing nute strength and ph within the media), then far be it from me to stop you. Just don't think for a second that I won't hop in as usual to correct you when you are putting up incorrect informationNo hard feelings on my end, just facts.......
Please feel free to chime in and share your view of the truth at any time. You've always been respectful toward me, and me toward you. I will continue to take peer reviewed research over bro science all day.
How do you know synthetics increase veg speed? My veg speed is pretty remarkable especially since I've added a fogger. Don't really see it getting any faster, wondering how you even determine that? Have you done many side by sides?
Mr D , micro life makes plant nutrients available?
Yes, as I'm sure you well should know, bacteria consume the raw materials digesting them into a plant useable form available once the bacteria die off in the natural cycle of the food web.
While there are species of bacteria that fix nitrogen solubilize phosphorus and potassium, a plant that is grown organically with the correct method, not hippie tear TLO crap makes its own nutrients available by exuding organic acids and complex carbohydrates and photo compounds in to the soil.
This is true also, but not the only way plants assimilate organic nutes. Thank you for admitting that organics are not immediately available to the roots though
Ańother thing that dictates the availability of organic nutrients is particle size. Under 100microns and you had best believe that it is going to be plant available..in that it will able to be absorbed through the root hairs
And how many of the typically used organic nutes come screened to less than 100 microns? Not many........
Have you heard of foliar spraying? This is the preferred method of nutrient delivery in cutting edge organic farms. Studies show results in the plant in as little as 30 minutes.
Of course I have, but nobody is feeding crops on a commercial scale solely with foliar feeds. It's not cost effective, and doesn't really add to your argument because the same effects are witness by foliar feeding in a chem garden
My experience shows that veg speed is determined by environment , not weather or not the nutrients are conventional or organic.
So you don't have experience testing chem vs organic both in the same dialed environment? If the answer is no, then you don't have a foot to stand on in this argument. I agree having a proper environment will increase veg speed. It is irrelevant to the what we are arguing here however. I clearly stated earlier that chems out yield organics all other factors being equal (i.e both tests done in a dialed environment).
Chemical nutrients are often nitrate based, when a plant has too much nitrates it isn't able to create the proteins and enzymes it needs to in order to be healthy. Mn, Co, and B can help to turn these excess nitrates to proteins however when chelated via DPTA, EDTA etc, they are less than preferred to,the plant. There are better sources like manganese sulfate, cobalt sulfate and boric acid...
If your plant has too much nitrate in it, your nutes are not dialed, period. You are correct about the rest of that, but again none of that is relevant if using your nutes properly (i.e your dialed)
I do agree healthy plants grow faster and produce better crops. I just disagree that chemical nutrients will get you there.
I also think that any study done on C3 fruiting plants is applicable to marijuana as their life system is generally the same. I agree that specific amounts may not transfer over but you have a place to start that has field tested results on similar crops and if you're an astute grower that takes notes and can do math you'll be able,to find the effective concentration for your environment.
Again I never said white papers contained no valid information (just the opposite in fact), but again you are agreeing with me that the information often has to be adjusted for herb specifically. So would you rather take information from people that have been working with herb and already know this shit, or take the information off a paper that's not cannabis specific and assume it's correct until you find out otherwise? Personally I use a healthy amount of both, leaning more towards experienced advice of course.
You missed my point, in that after 10 days of propagation and 7 days of veg under T5 4 days of veg in the flower beds I was able to flower a crop that will yield 2+ and I used organic nutrients to veg and flower.
Which is not a valid argument for the point I made. I never said organics can't produce 2+ per light, or that organics veg "slow". I said that chems will produce 2+ per light more times per year, thus increasing the amount you harvest, all else being equal. Using my example, 4 days shorter veg time per crop is a difficult thing to witness if you don't have extensive notes and experience with the clone being tested.
FWIW, jack ain't running his room in the 90s, homie has 20 tons of ac for 50k
Dude if I really need to i'll go dig up the post where he talks about keeping his room in the mid to high 80's on purpose. This is done with good reason, but like I said before there are other factors besides temp that make that work so well for him. It's not that hot because he can't cool it further if desired, it's that hot because in combination with other environmental factors being adjusted for the higher temps it increases his yield.
Bobbles info wasn't always peer reviewed,I will give you that...but those examples you can pull are when he was drinking the DHF Kool Aid.
It's not hard to regurgitate information that's been relatively accepted as fact or procedure within certain circles. Hang out long enough, you'll talk the talk.
Mister D
Attempting to converse with you is like beating a dead horse. I need to pull my hat from the ring.
I have plenty to add mister D what you don't understand is the level I'm contributing from.
It's tiresome to continually point out how you and DHF really have no idea what you're talking about , then to have you just come through with some more bro drivel.
Go read the label of GHMicro , it's main ingredients are ammonium nitrate, calcium nitrate , and potassium nitrate. GHGrow has magnesium nitrate in it. Please let me know how you can dial in these nutrients in to a plant to not have excess nitrate levels and do you do the sap testing to know? Ca , K , and Mg are extremely important cations in the plant, when attached to a NO 3 to make it available the plant takes up the NO 3 as well ... Don't even get me started on what NH4NH3 does to a plant!
You right, and since your soooo smart you should also know how the information was originally acquired, trial/error and testing. So you saying that because I don't own a meter I don't know shit is pretty laughable. It's very cute how you like to add a bunch a irrelevant information that makes you sound smart to the average joe, but adds nothing to your argument.
Foliar feeding not happening in big Ag? Dude, comments like this are what make it so I can't continue with you! It shows how little you know! Farmers use foliar spraying to cover big acreage with less water and less nutrient input! Yes you can have good results adding a solid foliar program to a conventional program. Adding foliar Mn, B , and Co will help convert excess NO 3 to protein.
Again where did I say it's not happening? I said it's not used as the "sole method of feeding" in a typical commercial operation Trying to twist my words to redirect the conversation away from the original argument isn't going to work with me, I'm not an idiot. Even better how you again finish your blurb by agreeing with what I said above. I feel like you are arguing with me just because you don't like fred
Let's do a little math, cuts are taken 20 days prior to harvest.
10 days propagation
7 days pre veg
4 days acclimation in raised beds in flower room
60 days flowering
Separate propagation area , pre veg , and flower area , 64 days time in the flower room. 5 crops per year.
Let me know how you could squeeze more in. There's 365 days per year and if you're on a 9 week cycle I'm not sure how using chemical nutrients is going to get you more crops per year? Does it add more days to the calendar?
Finally you make a valid point concerning the debate at hand, with one issue. Every time you move your grow you've lost at least 20lbs the first year there. From then on in your case yield would be even, but still that's ~40-100K lost depending on your market. Not insignificant by any means. So again chems win the yield per year debate as you won't make up that extra 20 lbs anytime in the future.
My dog in this race is that DHF isn't giving advice based on his own experience if you read his posts for long enough you'd know he's contradicted himself as he's gone from DEDHEADFRED to DHF and the few names in between to now...DUNHAVINFUN and continuously perpetuates bullshit...in the advice he gives and stories he tells, and the guy continuously mentions me in his posts in a trolling manner ... It's just comedy to me at this point.
Dude I'm starting to feel like you don't read 95% of my posts before replying. I've been talking to fred for damn near 20 years now, don't you think maybe sometime in that period I might have picked up that the dude doesn't know what he's talking about? You know, if that were actually the case. You guys put way to much emphasis on the story behind the information he is sharing, rather than the information itself. Ever consider maybe he alters the story a bit to protect himself? Like I said his mind state is much different than ours coming from a medical/legal situation vs. a highly illegal one.
Looking at your gallery it's obvious how little time you spend in and on your garden.
I've got to put you on ignore now.