Automation

[GrowerGoneWild]

I enjoying finding ways to make things automated, but when it comes to plants I guess I draw the line. I love to be involved in weed growing.

Ah ha!. I knew there was an EE out there.

I understand that you dont want to automate your grow but some of us have an actual need for these products other than curiosity.

I work an odd schedule, some days I have to leave for a week at a time, lets just say that something as routine as topping off a res with water should be automated to fit my situation.

I'm still involved in the grow, theres all the manual labor like cloning, triming, cleanup, etc.. that wont be automated for a long time. Like you I _love_ growing weed.. hell I love gardening in general.

Even if you draw the line at using automation for growing, how about some input for those of us that want to use it?

 

[Hephaestus]

Yeah, but there's also the other side of it... Sometimes one can get too involved and fiddle with too much causing more problems especially if some good smoke was involved beforehand

That's my problem, I'll sit there and fiddle and find things to do - thus causing myself more grief... I need to be closer to hands off...

Electrical safety is a big one - like anything in growing... Like I said before - I'm a big fan of the allen bradley mushroom panic switches... One of these days I'll run a dedicated 20a circuit out to the grow through one of those...

Been thinking about UPS's and gensets lately - and how those can be effectively tied in...

 

[gardenlover]

Ok, so i just read through all of this again and my interest in automation has been re-ignited thanks to everyone here.

Count me in, I plan on purchasing Arduino and playing with it just because I am interested. If someone is manufacturing and producing custom stuff as i thought I read, i will be willing to purchase this stuff instead if it will help out. Please PM me or let me know if I can help out in anyway ( I am great at trouble shooting that is involved in projects like this). I am not sure how useful it will be but i can also take apart my Growtronix and take pics if it would help. Or if someone needs to look at the software to get some ideas. I should emphasize I do not know much about some of the systems discussed so please feel free to put me in my place when I start talking crazy.

This leads into my next topic. I have installed and played with the Growtronix system enough to understand that basing any controls or sensors off a computer may be a bad Idea for reasons previously stated by Hephaestus. There are just too many things that can, and do go wrong. The base system needs to be stand alone and simple. Lets face it all we really need to know is a few numbers that can fit on a tiny lcd display.

So we start off with a simple stand alone base unit that can perform simple functions, receive and process data then use this information to turn items off and on. This way if there is power outage the system is not shut down completely like a computer would do. If need be you could even hook up batteries to just do the bare minimum to keep plants alive for prolonged power outages like watering. Although without light it would probably one need about one watering but it the the philosophy that I am after here.


So I apologize if I repeated what has already been said, but I just want to put emesis on what I have found to be most important to a grow.

Oh I also love the idea of open source type of logic for this project. This should provide the best product for the cheapest price I would imagine?

anyway so on with my thinking---and it is only that; "MY" thinking and not fact or truth so i hope i do not offend. So now that the skeleton is in place we can start to add on luxuries that operating the system to enhance its ability to sense and control. Adding sensors seems to be easy enough by what I have read, so i guess the difficult part would be figuring out a way to store data/ and convert it to graphs and formats that are easier to interpret.

Here is where one could make money. I believe the hard part to this whole project would be the integration and programing of a computer to receive and display data as say graphs. when the system is set up like this, a problem only means a bit of data that would be lost, and not the whole crop. As growers it is vital to document as much as posable for future reference so I believe this would be important (eventually).

also i did not see any valves that could be controlled via wires, did I just miss it or is there a way to set up servo's?

The last part in the it MUST WORK WITH DIGITAL BALLAST to be able to operate in many of the new grow rooms. I will be testing this out as i will be running 4-600 watt digitals.

Well sorry if i came on strong or like i actually know something, but I just had to write it quick before I forgot, ADD ya know. and sorry if i stepped on toes, did not mean to re-invent the wheal from the beginning of the thread!.

 

[Hephaestus]

Storing data - not so hard; i2c eeproms will let you save up a fair bit - outputing as a graph... Little more programming intensive - possible yes, but I'm personally more worried about the instantaneous + highs / lows... Will have to look at the xbee stuff - should be pretty easy to output it for display on a computer.

Servos are easily setup; simple power on/off is sorted/tested. Digital ballasts - shouldn't be an issue, might need to add some isolation in some way but shouldn't be too hard to figure out in the end...

I'm a big fan of the open source movements - Though I have started to keep some things under my hat; as I'm noticing there are a lot of people suddenly working on the same project; with very similar parts, and intent on selling it (in some cases for big $). Will release them all when done - so there's no issues with copyright / patents / etc...

The second version - the one designed to be a 'production' version; working hard to make it as efficient and inexpensive to build as possible... If someone wants to work it out for themselves and clone - they're welcome to - but I'm not going to give it to them

 

[GrowerGoneWild]

The last part in the it MUST WORK WITH DIGITAL BALLAST to be able to operate in many of the new grow rooms. I will be testing this out as i will be running 4-600 watt digitals.

I do believe that a PLC should work.

I've run this thing next to all kinds of ballasts, mags and digis and it seems to work fine.

Not to get off topic.. but..

Why digital ballasts?.. I avoided them because I like to use hortilux bulbs, and they seems to shorten the life span of those bulbs, from what I've heard.

 

[Hephaestus]

Well digital ballasts are more efficient, and supposedly put out more lumens / watt; and are dimmable.

However, the PWM used - can cause interference with some electronic devices... Just a matter of how you address it - Shielded wire between the arduino and control pack, SSRs, and opto-isolation via use of the port expanders... Should cover the bases- however only way to know for sure - is to test it (I don't have a digital ballast at my disposal). Might be some feedback through the high voltage side (ie having the arduino plugged into the same breaker) but 5v regulated power supply should filter that out.

Spent a fair bit of time looking at this one, think i've got all those bases covered - but only way to know is to test...

 

[medi-useA]

'm a big fan of the open source movements - Though I have started to keep some things under my hat; as I'm noticing there are a lot of people suddenly working on the same project; with very similar parts, and intent on selling it (in some cases for big $). Will release them all when done - so there's no issues with copyright / patents / etc...

The second version - the one designed to be a 'production' version; working hard to make it as efficient and inexpensive to build as possible... If someone wants to work it out for themselves and clone - they're welcome to - but I'm not going to give it to them

Hep...if you're referring to me because of this exchange

medi-useA, you seem quite keen to invest in this project, are you trying to build this for yourself or did you intend to develop a solution to resell?

The idea is not repellant to me, but I aim to learn to build and use the controller first...and make info all available free online...It is the very freedom of the open source/licence system th@ is allowing this to be possible...but if a suitable compromise could be made, great, but if not...others will still benefit from the research and efforts of all involved.

Let me make this clear, in case you think I am interested in making big $$ or even any $$ from this project...I am not...nor am I offended @ the idea you might think this.

It is understandable, considering the exchange...

I am a disability pensioner...no $$.
I get about 14-16 thou a year to live on...
I sell to one person only, on occasional basis as gratuity...
I could pull triple my pension per year if I wanted to...but I don't want th@

I started this thread because Automation of grows has always fascinated me...
I got interested in the Aduino and in your efforts.

I have no interest in copying your board...or even in putting out a board!....it's the process th@ interests me...and the possibilities....of Grow Automation with an Aduino.

I am ALL for the Open Source Movement.

If I make $$ off of this project it would be from a BOOK on automating a Grow with an Aduino...ALL different methods...using as many different solutions as possible...
NOT based on any one project...or example...

Most probably a compilation of examples and overview, outline, chapters and basic starters idea's...


And something like this cannot really come along until

#1 I learn about Electronics & Aduino use.
#2 Until there actually ARE grows running on Aduino boards I know nothing and have seen nothing on the subject. {IE: This thread lives and evolves...your thread lives and evolves..other threads start and evolve...}
#3 I actually get off my arse and DO IT!


If you di'nt mean me, the please excuse the preamble....

About the digital ballasts...would they effect the probes and bits or just the board with the chips?

If it's just the board...wh@ about some type of Faraday cage?

muA

PS if you decide not to sell me any of you boards...I don't mind and won't feel offended, I understand your concerns...if you are willing to sell me the 2 boards I dibbed on, I would respect your wishes as to keeping it 'mum'.

One way or another, I'm sure I'll see something up and running from you on your thread sooner or later...would love to participate..but am aware of the potential Complete Bastardry th@ could occur with a Concept with this much Potential!

Peace all

muA

PS HEP...just found you thread on Aquaponics...gonna read it today....got shitloads of bookmarks fromth@ search subject also!

muA

 

[Hephaestus]

Mua - I'm a lot more direct If I had issues with you - you'd know it cuz I'd be directly in yer face Plus - gotta admit - these two threads make me think a lot sometimes... Get some great ideas from your links - if anything I should be tossing you some boards at n/c as a collaborator

No like the link you pm'd me earlier (and i posted) - there's 3-4 new almost identical projects appearing... One even did a DIY home etched board - looks like they copied my schematic pin for pin - and just let the autorouter in kicad set it up and called it good (made for a ugly board with a bunch of throughpins). Haven't seen anything posted since the board assembly - thinking either he's stuck on the software and doesn't know how to test it; and likely he found the couple glitches I know of and have fixed (and didn't change on the posted schematic)

And my damn chip is still in winterpeg... What - did the mosquito's get it and haul it away?!?! Lord tunnering this is pissing me off... One chip... All I need to finish testing so I can send the boards off for a run...

Ah well, seriously broke right now anyway... Christmas and budgets just never mix

 

[GrowerGoneWild]

Well digital ballasts are more efficient, and supposedly put out more lumens / watt; and are dimmable.

Spent a fair bit of time looking at this one, think i've got all those bases covered - but only way to know is to test...

Off topic but..

I dont understand the point of a dimmable ballast. When the clones hit the flower room, I hit them with every watt I can, especially when they are small and stretching.

The 20-30% more lumens.. seems pointless to me, I would rather use a bulb with higher PAR than just any lumen. Not to say a horilux wont work, but there seems to be a compatiblity problem.

But the good news.

For those of us using constant PPM/PH monitoring. I've noticed that the RFI from digital ballasts is not anything to bother hanna series monitors, like the gro-checks.

 

[Hephaestus]

Some uses - more in aquarium use... But I could see the dimming in case of heat issues being very handy - especially in the more equatorial places... Pretty much you're going to run it at 100%.

I know a few controllers where digital ballasts have been a problem, knowing the basic setup of them - they share some common theories; I'm trying to make I stay away from those problems with a slightly different design - that helps avoid these interference issues...

I think a lot of the problem with the digital ballasts is on the high voltage side... that 'flickering' power has to cause some problems... Possibly some EM and RF interference - but I don't think that's so much the issue - I'm betting if we put a spectrum analyzer on the circuit - we'd see the sine wave form getting screwy/spikey from the rapid cut in/out...

 

[medi-useA]

Hep...I figgered you would be..you've been upfront so far...But as a stoner I had to be sure, hence the post...but also...well, this is an open forum and someone coming in and reading half a page might get the wrong idea...so I had to publicly make sure.

I had no idea others were also doing this...nor th@ they were using your specs...

Could you PM the addies so I can check 'em out?

muA

 

[Hephaestus]

PS HEP...just found you thread on Aquaponics...gonna read it today....got shitloads of bookmarks fromth@ search subject also!

muA

Yeah having fun with that one - loving the growth I'm seeing suddenly... Can't wait to get flowering...

 

[Hephaestus]

Hep...I figgered you would be..you've been upfront so far...But as a stoner I had to be sure, hence the post...but also...well, this is an open forum and someone coming in and reading half a page might get the wrong idea...so I had to publicly make sure.

I had no idea others were also doing this...nor th@ they were using your specs...

Could you PM the addies so I can check 'em out?

muA

MuA - will PM in time; contemplating calling them out in public in cases where they were posted on another forum; and might have a quick consult with a lawyer about one of them... Plus - don't need them getting more hits right now; just helps their google rankings...

Alternatively I might just have the sites shut down... I've got an IT buddy who tells me he could take the websites offline in 5 minutes... Gotta love them hacker friends I'll have to go have a with him

 

[YouGrowBoy]

Yeah having fun with that one - loving the growth I'm seeing suddenly... Can't wait to get flowering...

My System is a custom DWC/Aero (with great results) and having automation will make the process so much easier. I have been preforming reservoir nute changes and flushes for many grows and it is basically the same process over and over. Pump out the old, refill with new.

Was thinking of having automation that would drain and fill the entire system at biweekly intervals for nute changes and final flush. Inbetween drainings a refill system like GGW's would top off.

One could either have nutes premixed and pumped in as needed.

YGB

 

[GrowerGoneWild]

My System is a custom DWC/Aero (with great results) and having automation will make the process so much easier. I have been preforming reservoir nute changes and flushes for many grows and it is basically the same process over and over. Pump out the old, refill with new.

Was thinking of having automation that would drain and fill the entire system at biweekly intervals for nute changes and final flush. Inbetween drainings a refill system like GGW's would top off.

One could either have nutes premixed and pumped in as needed.

YGB

I'm working on the ladder logic now. I'll post it here, right now its a work in progress. The program for the AB controller is a different so i'm learning it again. You dont have to use the AB controller but there are similar controllers that share the same language.

It took me awhile to realize that it was in fact better to dump nutrients every couple of weeks instead of trying to adjust a solution that is slowly going out of balance by adding back nutrients.

 

[YouGrowBoy]

It took me awhile to realize that it was in fact better to dump nutrients every couple of weeks instead of trying to adjust a solution that is slowly going out of balance by adding back nutrients.

Off topic a bit, but yes it is. That's why I want a programmable drain, refill and top off system

Every 2 week (done manually do now), I will drain, then fill with some fresh water to rinse roots of toxins, drain again then fill with nutes. it's kind of like a washing machine cycle except without the spin and agitation.

So you're working with PLC's?

YGB

 

[GrowerGoneWild]

Off topic a bit, but yes it is. That's why I want a programmable drain, refill and top off system

Every 2 week (done manually do now), I will drain, then fill with some fresh water to rinse roots of toxins, drain again then fill with nutes. it's kind of like a washing machine cycle except without the spin and agitation.

So you're working with PLC's?

YGB

Yes, I'm working with the Allen-Bradley Pico 1760-L12AWA.

120V is the standard here, so thats why I picked it.

Basic overview,

Every 14 days.

-PLC will trigger sump pump on for 12 hours, or longer.

-Fill valve will keep adding water.

-Sump Pump will turn off.

-Dosing pump will turn on, emptying out pre-measured mix.

OR

Simply dump nutrient every 14 days or 336 hours with sump pump.

Manually add your own nutrient.

 

[YouGrowBoy]

Yes, I'm working with the Allen-Bradley Pico 1760-L12AWA.

120V is the standard here, so thats why I picked it.

Basic overview

I have a few questions about this.

How do you program the PLC?
How many outlets can you program (i.e. one for lights , one for pumps, one for fans etc?
How do you connect it to each device to activate it?

Thanks, YGB

 

[Hephaestus]

typically programming is done via RS485 or similar cable (some proprietary some not) - outlets are PLC dependant, Believe my 14mr is 14 outputs - but I've also got a 30mr sitting here so

2 ways to do it - can run pumps etc directly as it can usually handle the device loads... But better setup is to run a low voltage controls circuit (ie somewhat standard 24vac) for floats and controls then a series of relays/contactors to handle the high voltage side...

PLCs are great for simple automation - you'd have a devil of a time programming pH monitoring or communication to other devices in... but for simple on off switching (lights/pumps etc) and topoff type scenarios (switch on - pump on) and timer based events - you can't beat em...

Suppose monitoring wouldn't be that hard to program in - some do automagically output switch/device conditions to the comms cable... but you'd need a pc connected 24/7 to datalog/analyze it...

 

[GrowerGoneWild]

I have a few questions about this.

How do you program the PLC?
How many outlets can you program (i.e. one for lights , one for pumps, one for fans etc?
How do you connect it to each device to activate it?

Thanks, YGB

Programming can be done directly via the PLC or on your computer and transfered via a special cable. I personally only use the program to draw it out and I do the programming directly on the PLC.

I use Picosoft v. 6, and it comes with a tutorial on drawing a basic diagram.

Publication 1760-GR001C-EN-P - April 2005 1
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/gr/1760-gr001_-en-p.pdf

This will guide you through the basics of PLC programming.

On that particular PLC there are 4 outputs. Labeled Q1- Q4. Wiring is pretty much standard.

The device (120V) is simply wired to the outputs. Or you could wire it to a standard plug. Makes things simpler in case of pump failure or if you have to swap things out.

For example: When I used it as a pump timer, I simply wired it to a plug in and labed that plug as a timed pump.