captinknots
Member
ive seen yes and no. it seems like adding additional cal mg is all thats needed , right?
are coco nutes necessary?
- Thread starter captinknots
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buddin_904
Member
this is a ? thats not going to really be answered how you ...i dont no..."want" it to be answered??.....just do what works for you is probably the best advice....
Absolutely correct.
I use PBP's line and have no qualms.
I use PBP's line and have no qualms.
captinknots
Member
Im not looking for any answer one way or the other. just want to know if guys are getting good results using normal nutes. im not really trying to buy a new line of nutes if ive got some cal mg and it can be used instead...
anyway, thanks MMM.
i was talking with a dude on here earlier who uses just maxibloom from gh by its self with a tad of ph up, for veg and bloom and gets killer results. he says he has no cal mg issues.
anyway, thanks MMM.
i was talking with a dude on here earlier who uses just maxibloom from gh by its self with a tad of ph up, for veg and bloom and gets killer results. he says he has no cal mg issues.
D
DickDasterdly
I have used Dutch masters gold line in top feed with no problem, and Atami Organics in Hempys with no problem
G
grasspass
I'm new to coco, but after rinsing new coco, I watered the coco with Epsom salt in the water before using it , using reg hydro ferts and water on the hard side , I'm not seeing any mag deficiency. [hempy style bucket] If mag def shows up later , I'm just gonna add a little Epsom salt to the feeding.
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Spanishwilly
Member
No.
Additional Calmag isn't needed if Ca is > 75 ppm (over 100 ppm is better) and Mg is over 50 ppm your all set. For example, you can use the Lucas formula in coco with excellent results, no need for extra CalMag. I have used coco and peat in the same exact fashion, I write from experience and from knowledge of soil science.
There is no need to 'charge' coco as is often claimed, the "percent base saturation" of CEC in coco is not really a concern because the CEC of coco provides low "effective CEC" (see below for info).
Here is some non-technical reading on this topic, but note it's for soil, that has much higher bulk density than coco. See what I wrote below for reasons why CEC of soil is not well related to CEC of coco (due to the very low bulk density of coco):
"Cation Exchange Capacity in Soils, Simplified"
http://www.soilminerals.com/Cation_Exchange_Simplified.htm
"Cation Exchange Capacity"
http://www.spectrumanalytic.com/support/library/ff/CEC_BpH_and_percent_sat.htm
"Cation Exchange Capacity and Percent Base Saturation"
http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~blpprt/IL64.html
The claims that more CalMag is needed in coco due to CEC (Cation Exchange Capacity) are false. However, if the coco isn't flushed it could have higher levels of soluble K, S and Na ions, and those could interferer with Ca but coco isn't anything special requiring special ferts. Bontanicare cocogrow is good stuff that is flushed by the manufacture before packing. So-called "coco" ferts are just an attempt for fert companies to make more money.http://www.soilminerals.com/Cation_Exchange_Simplified.htm
"Cation Exchange Capacity"
http://www.spectrumanalytic.com/support/library/ff/CEC_BpH_and_percent_sat.htm
"Cation Exchange Capacity and Percent Base Saturation"
http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~blpprt/IL64.html
Also, the claim that there is an ideal Ca to Mg ratio is false, proven so for decades by soil science and plant science. I mention Ca:Mg ratio because often coco companies claim such a thing, but the truth is anywhere from 1.5 to 8 (and higher) is fine; i.e. Ca:Mg as 1:1.5 to 1:8.
Here are two posts I recently wrote on this topic from my thread "Plants self-regulate uptake of ions; they control it, not us, unless we overdo ferts" (link)
And:
FWIW, here is my fert mix made after reviewing many leaf tissue assay of cannabis, and tested with peat and coco based media. Along with the info about low levels of P being ideal than claimed by cannabis book authors who don't know much about soil science and plant physiology (re: 50 ppm of P is fine, I use 40 ppm all the time, more than 50 ppm isn't needed nor helpful, esp. during pre-flowing).
The topic of why plants need much less P than most cannabis growers think is not really relevant to this thread, but suffice it to say over 50 ppm of soluble (i.e. plant bio-available) phosphate anions is unneeded and can hinder stalky plant growth. To keep phosphate anion soluble it's wise to include citric acid in your fertigation water. Ex. Fe cations will make phosphate anions insoluble; but if citric acid chelates the anions first the Fe won't make them insoluble--thus the anions won't precipitate out of solution and no longer be plant available. The greater the P (and N) the greater the plant will stretch and the greater the internodal length, esp. important for pre-flowing when people tend to boost P with bloom boosters. During pre-flowing is a time when it's best to NOT boost P, but boosting K is fine because it has little effect upon internodal length/stretch and can increase yields. IMO the efficacy of bloom boosters comes from the K, not the P.
Here is what I feed when using chems, I use this all the time for vet to harvest. There is no need to use grow and bloom ferts, as has been shown for a long time by those using the Lucas formula:
FWIW, here is data from CNS17 (from bontaicre) thanks to Carl Carlson:
Hope that helps you
Here are two other papers about CEC and bulk density of coco and coco/perlite, etc., and about bulk density. The first paper by Agro and Fisher is a must read and debunks the claims about CEC in media with low bulk desnity, etc.
1. Here is a good read about why CEC in media with low bulk density does not do what CEC in soil (high bulk density) does. Soil has the lowest CEC but most "effective CEC" out of the total CEC. This is probably the most relevant reference considering most studies and writings about CEC are about soil, which has high bulk density, not about s.peat or coco that we most often use as a base for our media.
"Understanding Plant Nutrition: Nutrient Sources: Media Cation Exchange Capacity"
By Bill Argo and Paul Fisher, February 2008
http://www.greenhousegrower.com/magazine/?storyid=47
(coir/perlite media tested amongst others)
2. "Soil Bulk Density - Physical Properties"
(University of Missouri)
http://soils.missouri.edu/tutorial/page10.asp
1. Here is a good read about why CEC in media with low bulk density does not do what CEC in soil (high bulk density) does. Soil has the lowest CEC but most "effective CEC" out of the total CEC. This is probably the most relevant reference considering most studies and writings about CEC are about soil, which has high bulk density, not about s.peat or coco that we most often use as a base for our media.
"Understanding Plant Nutrition: Nutrient Sources: Media Cation Exchange Capacity"
By Bill Argo and Paul Fisher, February 2008
http://www.greenhousegrower.com/magazine/?storyid=47
(coir/perlite media tested amongst others)
2. "Soil Bulk Density - Physical Properties"
(University of Missouri)
http://soils.missouri.edu/tutorial/page10.asp
captinknots
Member
Spurr, I hardly graduated high school bro! lol cec and all that is way beyond me man.
i swear the more tech shit I think I learn, the more I fuck shit up! When I knew dick about any of the chemistry I did great! The more ive studied and learned about nute uptake and all that noise, the more i change shit, and fuck shit up.
Ive seen the results using maxibloom from gh @ 1tsp/gal and some cal mg @ 5ml/gal (with RO water) no calmg with tap, while using coco.... simple simple simple!!
ph to 5.8 and grow!!
check out the K.i.s.s. method thread. thats where i saw this technique. pics for proof too.
thanks for all your input guys! im going to be switching to coco once i use all my soil up! probably a month or so......
i swear the more tech shit I think I learn, the more I fuck shit up! When I knew dick about any of the chemistry I did great! The more ive studied and learned about nute uptake and all that noise, the more i change shit, and fuck shit up.
Ive seen the results using maxibloom from gh @ 1tsp/gal and some cal mg @ 5ml/gal (with RO water) no calmg with tap, while using coco.... simple simple simple!!
ph to 5.8 and grow!!
check out the K.i.s.s. method thread. thats where i saw this technique. pics for proof too.
thanks for all your input guys! im going to be switching to coco once i use all my soil up! probably a month or so......
hey
what I wrote means that you don't need coco ferts for coco
KISS enough for ya? (see my first paragraph to you in my first post) Beyond that, my posts explained the 'whys', I didn't try to change how you grow. That said, inclusion of silica via. ProTeKt is a very wise move, Si is a needed element that is sadly too often left out...
What I wrote wasn't only for you, it was for anyone reading who was unaware of those facts/issues. Some people like to learn more than the very basics.
The bit about lower P being good was just a sidebar for this thread, less P than in Lucas formula and maxibloom = win. (maxibloom is pretty close to Lucas formula AFAIK)
The problem with lots of info about ferts from cannabis growers is lots of the info is wrong...
FWIW, a pH of 5.8 isn't needed, anywhere from 5.5-7 is fine, that way it's even more KISS for ya! Water pH has very little effect upon pH of media (rhziosphere and soil solution) and it's that media pH that has the greatest affect upon solubility of ions from chem ferts.
One thing I would suggset, again keeping it KISS, and saving you money, is to use citric acid to lower pH, not pH down. The reason is citric acid will chelate P (phosphate anions) so they stay available (soluble) to the plant, otherwise they can get locked up (made insoluble) pretty easily. Also, using citric acid as pH down is good for other reasons too.
what I wrote means that you don't need coco ferts for coco
KISS enough for ya? (see my first paragraph to you in my first post) Beyond that, my posts explained the 'whys', I didn't try to change how you grow. That said, inclusion of silica via. ProTeKt is a very wise move, Si is a needed element that is sadly too often left out...What I wrote wasn't only for you, it was for anyone reading who was unaware of those facts/issues. Some people like to learn more than the very basics.
The bit about lower P being good was just a sidebar for this thread, less P than in Lucas formula and maxibloom = win. (maxibloom is pretty close to Lucas formula AFAIK)
The problem with lots of info about ferts from cannabis growers is lots of the info is wrong...
FWIW, a pH of 5.8 isn't needed, anywhere from 5.5-7 is fine, that way it's even more KISS for ya! Water pH has very little effect upon pH of media (rhziosphere and soil solution) and it's that media pH that has the greatest affect upon solubility of ions from chem ferts.
One thing I would suggset, again keeping it KISS, and saving you money, is to use citric acid to lower pH, not pH down. The reason is citric acid will chelate P (phosphate anions) so they stay available (soluble) to the plant, otherwise they can get locked up (made insoluble) pretty easily. Also, using citric acid as pH down is good for other reasons too.
buddin_904
Member
see look at all this shit......this is the variety of varing answers your going to get....just fucking do what works for you.......
^^ The only problem with that is there is no personal growth of knowledge, and what about increasing the quality/growth of the herb? You can grow herb with miracle-grow, or with a mix of piss and ash (that no joke, it's true), but I wouldn't want to do so...
Within this whole thread everyone agrees one doesn't need coco specific ferts, so I don't see any variation in answers in the regard. The only variation I see is people listing the non-coco specific fets they do use, but that's merely as a means to answer the OP question. And my posts simply explain the why's.
captinknots
Member
captinknots
Member
Spurr, Thank you!
G
Guywithoutajeep
use whatever you want, that what coco is all about
i prefer going for whats cheap, simple, and effective
i prefer going for whats cheap, simple, and effective
D
dramamine
Spurr,
It's very interesting, the CEC info regarding coco. If the CEC of coco is, in practice, actually low due to lack of density, what causes all the Ca/Mg deficiencies that go hand in hand with (especially young) plants in coco? This deficiency is very commonplace and it's generally understood to be a result of the coco exchanging cations with the nutrient solution, leaving Ca/Mg shortages. Would you explain these deficiencies to be simply a result of the high potassium levels in coco? Is it a mystery? It sounded as if you feel that well-rinsed coco is, in practice, a neutral, inert medium. My observations tell me differently.
It's interesting, what you've presented, but it begs more questions, to be honest...
It's very interesting, the CEC info regarding coco. If the CEC of coco is, in practice, actually low due to lack of density, what causes all the Ca/Mg deficiencies that go hand in hand with (especially young) plants in coco? This deficiency is very commonplace and it's generally understood to be a result of the coco exchanging cations with the nutrient solution, leaving Ca/Mg shortages. Would you explain these deficiencies to be simply a result of the high potassium levels in coco? Is it a mystery? It sounded as if you feel that well-rinsed coco is, in practice, a neutral, inert medium. My observations tell me differently.
It's interesting, what you've presented, but it begs more questions, to be honest...
