A Pain In Molasses

[Microbeman]

It seems the issue has been well covered but yes, molasses provides some micronutrients but mostly feeds soil microorganisms (bacteria/archaea & fungi) which result in nutrients passing to the plants.

On thing Heady said;

a temporary bump in plant-available nutrients from dead microbes

makes me want to ask where this information comes from. I've heard it from Jay and several others and if this is the case, I'd like to read about this process.

 

[Microbeman]

Never smelled buds with a fishy hue to them?

Kinda like the fishy taste of organic corn grown with fish hydrolysate?

 

[mad librettist]

Kinda like the fishy taste of organic corn grown with fish hydrolysate?

lol and don't forget tomatoes that taste like chicken shit. Happens all the time, that's why scientists invented clean ferts like ammonium nitrate

 

[GoneRooty]

Reading the thread that Green linked. There's a quote from Ed Rosenthal -

"...you can supplement your nutrient solution with extra
sugars to boost the natural levels created by photosynthesis and make your
plants more vigorous and productive. The real icing on the cake, though,
comes from the fact that a little extra sugar will improve not only the
yield of your garden but also the flavor of your favorite herb."

He goes on to say that you can measure the increase in sugar with a refractometer:

"...you can even measure the amount of sugar (on this scale, we call it “brix,” pronounced bree) in your plant with a device called a refractometer... you can squeeze a drop of juice out of a leaf and then place it on the refractometer’s viewing plate. Look through the lens and you will see an obvious line running across a column of numbers."

It's this seemingly endless stream of conflicting data that keeps me asking questions.

I'm pretty sure at one time Ed said something along the lines of adding kool-aid or orange juice to your water to get fruitier tasting buds too. Or was that one of the other "ganja gurus"?

 

[heady blunts]

On thing Heady said;

a temporary bump in plant-available nutrients from dead microbes

makes me want to ask where this information comes from. I've heard it from Jay and several others and if this is the case, I'd like to read about this process.

i'm pretty sure i picked up that idea from teaming with microbes. i'd love to look for a specific passage to refer to, but i've misplaced my copy

 

[rrog]

I'm pretty sure at one time Ed said something along the lines of adding kool-aid or orange juice to your water to get fruitier tasting buds too. Or was that one of the other "ganja gurus"?

I wonder if it was Ed jumping on a bandwagon of opinion

 

[Greenheart]

I only skimmed but is this correct? -


the "control group" was one plant, as were the other two "groups".

He stated the two moms that filled the room were clones from the same plant. He seems to like his cheese and know it well.

As to the Ed business all I really got from that part was that there is a cool gadget I can buy for around 100 dollars that tells me if nutrient changes payoff in extra sugar retention.

 

[Microbeman]

i'm pretty sure i picked up that idea from teaming with microbes. i'd love to look for a specific passage to refer to, but i've misplaced my copy

hmmm....I'll hafto check it out. I do not believe it to be accurate...well at least in a major way.

 

[rrog]

Hey Green. I hear ya. Ed's quote (if accurate) clearly states a smell and taste improvement. Then he goes on to say you can measure the increase... Not saying it's true, or that it is proof, just that this was the quote.

 

[jaykush]

i didn't get it from TWM, don't even own that book. it came from a very long and detailed book on bacteria.

microbes are not made of thin air, they all consist of fundamental elements(mostly N if i remember right), when they die, those elements are free game to other microbes, or the plant via the soil food web.

 

[FunkBomb]

From my experiences with organic growing, bat guano works better than molasses. That could be boiled down to which is better: Phosphorous or sugar?

-Funk

 

[heady blunts]

i didn't get it from TWM, don't even own that book. it came from a very long and detailed book on bacteria.

microbes are not made of thin air, they all consist of fundamental elements(mostly N if i remember right), when they die, those elements are free game to other microbes, or the plant via the soil food web.

maybe i got it from jay then.

either way, it makes sense to me.

if a population increase could be understood as an increase in the food source sustaining high levels of reproduction, then it would only follow logically that a decrease in population is a transition of live bodies to foodstuffs.

that's obviously oversimplifying, and i'd qualify that the foodstuffs are not always plant-available (but they could still feed soil organisms).

 

[DARC MIND]

strange

strange

hasnt Tim writen about the release of nutrients immobilised in microbial biomass???
little old but here
http://horizon.documentation.ird.fr/exl-doc/pleins_textes/pleins_textes_6/b_fdi_45-46/010008338.pdf

 

[mad librettist]

hasnt Tim writen about the release of nutrients immobilised in microbial biomass???
little old but here
http://horizon.documentation.ird.fr/exl-doc/pleins_textes/pleins_textes_6/b_fdi_45-46/010008338.pdf

yes but th claim about sugar releasing nutes does not follow

 

[DARC MIND]

if im not mistaken doesnt mm state mollasses feeds both bacteria and fungi..

Micro-foodwebs mainly comprise microfauna that are predators of bacteria
and fungi, and their predators. Microfauna do not appear to produce recognizable solid excrements and hence, the effect of these invertebrates on soil organic matter dynamics is not prolonged ‘in structures that are stable for some time after deposition. They have, however, a significant impact on population dynamics of micro-organisms and the release of nutrients immobilised in microbial biomass (Trofymow and Coleman, 1982; Clarholm,1985). This process is especially developed in the rhizosphere. Predatory Acarina or Collembola, and even larger invertebrates (earthworms) may extend this foodweb over several trophic levels.

from my link
edit:
lets not forget,molasses(carbs) also has K,N & im sure some other trace elements...

 

[heady blunts]

yes but th claim about sugar releasing nutes does not follow

who claimed that?

 

[schwilly]

There is absolutely no evidence for what you are suggesting and it's a waste of time to argue about it.

I find it highly suspect that you detect fish in buds fed with fish and molasses in buds fed with molasses. If either were going to have a systemic effect altering taste, how likely is it that each time, it expresses itself as the very smells you detected while applying your ferts?

Sounds like you need to be more careful with the spray gun bro.

There has been a lot of good research in recent years regarding root uptake of complex molecules. I hope a peer reviewed paper will qualify as evidence for you, here's one regarding root uptake of non-ionized complex molecules in barley: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ps.2780130506/abstract

I only have free access to these full papers when I'm in certain labs at school. If you want to view the full thing it will cost. If I remember I'll look up a more relevant paper when I have full access if I can find one and paste it for you here.

I cannot tell what a plant was fed by smelling the buds. Only in extreme circumstances of over-feeding and early harvest have I ever smelled molasses, once, and fishiness a few times. And smell, I never said taste, nor did I say every time.

I do not believe that there is actual fish emulsion or molasses in buds. I do believe that plants are capable of uptaking by root some of the component aromatic compounds that make up the odor of the feeding regiment, a position backed by science.

The only thing I ever spray is BT.

 

[schwilly]

yes but th claim about sugar releasing nutes does not follow

Chelation?

 

[mad librettist]

There has been a lot of good research in recent years regarding root uptake of complex molecules. I hope a peer reviewed paper will qualify as evidence for you, here's one regarding root uptake of non-ionized complex molecules in barley: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ps.2780130506/abstract

I only have free access to these full papers when I'm in certain labs at school. If you want to view the full thing it will cost. If I remember I'll look up a more relevant paper when I have full access if I can find one and paste it for you here.

I cannot tell what a plant was fed by smelling the buds. Only in extreme circumstances of over-feeding and early harvest have I ever smelled molasses, once, and fishiness a few times. And smell, I never said taste, nor did I say every time.

I do not believe that there is actual fish emulsion or molasses in buds. I do believe that plants are capable of uptaking by root some of the component aromatic compounds that make up the odor of the feeding regiment, a position backed by science.

The only thing I ever spray is BT.

as usual a non sequitur.

you have no science backing your contention, only a study that raises the possibility of a precursor to what you claim is actually happening.

 

[Microbeman]

maybe i got it from jay then.

either way, it makes sense to me.

if a population increase could be understood as an increase in the food source sustaining high levels of reproduction, then it would only follow logically that a decrease in population is a transition of live bodies to foodstuffs.

that's obviously oversimplifying, and i'd qualify that the foodstuffs are not always plant-available (but they could still feed soil organisms).

It is for sure that dead microbes (bacteria, archaea, fungi, protozoa, etc) do become food for other microbes which make up the nutrient cycle. I think this is mostly true of fungi which are devoured by bacteria. I just don't think it is a major direct food to the roots of plants although I could easily be mistaken. The only reason I mention it at all is that I've heard it now put forth by several 'listened to' people as a main source of nutrient to plants.

From my understanding organic nutrients in the rhyzoshere are delivered to roots in a number of ways, some more major than others. Kind of in order; 1/ predation of bacteria/archaea by protozoa & nematodes1/ mycorrhizal fungi
2/ free living nutrient fixing bacteria 2/ nutrient fixing bacteria in unison with legume types
3/ some soluble nutrients 'sloughed' from organic matter
3/ nutrients mineralized by bacteria/archaea (fungi?) made directly available 3/ nutrients mineralized by root exudates [DON, DOP]

Anything I'm missing? Don't forget about above ground too.