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A civil discussion on hunting, please.

Clarence

FUZZY WUZZY
Veteran
Grat3fulh3ad said:
It's not that they're not allowed to destroy a small area of habitat, it's that it is not in their best interest to be allowed to destroy it... Deer will overpopulate to the point of mass starvations during harsher winters, managing them prevents such tragedies... Needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few and all...

Ok agreed. But as humans when the same happens in our communities we find other ways of dealing with it. Here is something i found about human over population. But i do not think that it has the option to hunt and kill as a remedy.


Is population growth a problem? If so, what should be done about it? If not, why has it become a major issue?

Opinion A

Population is a serious problem. We need non-coercive population programmes to tackle it.

The world's population stands at 6.7 billion. It is expected to almost double by the middle of the next century. It took until 1804 for the first billion to be reached; by 1974 we reached four billion; the fifth billion came in 1987; and the seventh will arrive shortly.
The bulk of the population increases are in the Third World, where resources are already stretched. The more people there are in newly industrialising countries, the more consumers there will be in the year 2050.If those people consume at the same level that we are currently consuming, there will not be enough resources to feed them.

If nothing is done to check the growth in the world's population, the gap between rich and poor will widen, cities will face extreme pressures. Almost all developing country growth will be urban, and rapid urbanisation will contribute to pollution.
In Africa, the problem with population is stark. The total population of Africa is not high compared with other parts of the world. But the rate at which Africa's population is growing is one of the highest, if not the highest in the world. Kenya and Cote d'Ivoire's 3.8 per cent annual increase of natural growth is the developing world's fastest. Africa's projected annual growth rate for the years 1980-2000 is 3.2 per cent. That is much higher than the population growth rate in the previous period 1973-1984 which was 2.9 per cent. Sub-Saharan Africa's population is forecast to reach 729 million by the year 2000. Rapid urbanisation has also caused stress in many African economies.
Seventy five per cent (three quarters) of Africans live outside cities and towns. But more than 42 per cent of all urban dwellers now reside in cities of more than 500 000 people. In 1960 only eight per cent of Africans lived in cities of more than 500 000 people. In 1960 there were only two cities in the region with populations over 500 000. Today, there are 19 with populations of over a million.

There are also environmental concerns. Everyone is agreed that the " global commons", the air and the oceans and the rainforest, are under pressure. An ever expanding population cannot help but put pressure on such resources. People have been pointing out for years that it is the rich countries where population is not growing that have been destroying the environment more than poor countries, which is true. But that does not mean to say it is not a problem in developing countries. India is already the world's fifth or sixth largest emitter of the gases that cause the greenhouse effect.
In addition to urban and environmental stress, we should examine the effects large families in developing countries have on the individuals concerned. Children in large families are less likely to receive adequate nutrition and healthcare. They are less likely to go to school. Crowded and squalid living conditions obviously do not help their development.

Mothers with many children to support come under tremendous pressure. In places like Africa, childbirth is a risky business. One in six women die of it. Their health is affected, particularly if births are not spaced far apart. Very often abortion is the only way out , and abortions pose even greater dangers to women's health.

The crucial point is choice. Women need access to the right information, and the freedom to choose whether to have children, and when to have children, and how many children to have. If large families are genuinely desired by women, and not simply because they bring status to their men folk, they must have the freedom to have them. Coercive population programmes are not the answer, as millions of women in India and China would tell you if they could.

In addition to choice, the provision of health services is vital, since high infant mortality rates are a factor behind the desire for large families. Education is also extremely relevant to the population question. It is a fact that educated women have fewer children.

While the developing countries pose the greatest problem in terms of rapid population growth, that should not blind us to what we are doing in economically advanced countries in the North. Only twenty per cent of the world's population lives in the North, yet we consume 80 per cent of the world's resources. So population is not the only problem; the other is the distribution of the world's resources.

Opinion B

No, population growth is not a problem.

The idea that more people use more resources and therefore cause underdevelopment has a simplistic appeal, but simplistic arguments are not always scientific or right. The logic that links population growth to underdevelopment is so crude that it crumbles as soon as it is examined with any seriousness. Just contrast a country like Belgium with a country like Ghana and the flaw in the argument is immediately apparent. Belgium is one of the most densely populated countries on earth and yet it enjoys a level of development better than most. Ghana in comparison is sparsely populated and yet its development is stunted and slow.

The connection between population and development may sound logical but it is defied by reality. We should avoid the simplistic approach of the population lobby and explore the issue more rationally. In so doing we not only expose the flaws in the arguments for population control, we can also begin to understand why such arguments are promoted in establishment circles.

1. The problems of resource depletion are exaggerated

Arguments for population control have been around for a very long time but the population control lobby have yet to produce any convincing evidence that growing populations are about to outstrip the earth's natural resources.
The Reverend Thomas Malthus was the first person to argue that the growth in population would eventually outstrip food production. In a book published in 1798 called An Essay on the Principle of Population as it affects the future improvement of society, Malthus argued that the increase in population would very soon outstrip increases in productivity in food production. The earth would be unable to sustain humanity.

Time and science proved Malthus to be quite wrong. His argument was flawed because he ignored a number of factors in agricultural production. For a start productivity increases in food production have been massive. Over the last two hundred years science has combined with agriculture to transform food production out of all recognition to what existed previously. Increased productivity in food production was spurred by a number of scientific developments. These range from the use of machinery, the use of fertilisers and the use of genetics to the use of new techniques. In addition to this, land that was previously considered uncultivable has been brought into use as farming techniques improved. This can continue into the future. Even today humanity only uses eleven per cent of land for farming. Even at the present level of technology about 25 percent of the earth's land is suitable for food production. With further advances in technology this figure could very easily expand.

In that there is a problem in food production in places like Africa, the problems do not stem from the fact that there are too many mouths to feed. Rather the problem stems from the fact that too many African farmers are using backward technology that is more suited to the age of Malthus than the end of the twentieth century.

2. New arguments for an old prejudice

Since history proved Malthus wrong few now argue his line. Today, however, there is a new development on the old Malthusian argument. Many of those who support population control argue that while we may well be able to feed a population several times greater than the present one (so there may not be an absolute problem of resource depletion) population increases it nevertheless pose a threat to environmental stability and cause irreparable environmental degradation.

It is argued that an increase in population leads to a more intensive use of land. This then necessarily leads to soil erosion and deterioration. But a look at farming techniques across the globe indicate that there is no correlation between population size and the state of the soil. The United States for example farms its land more than five times more intensively and therefore productively than Africa. And yet land in the US is less eroded than land in Africa. Ironically soil erosion is often caused by under-population rather than over-population. Hillside terracing, for example, requires a lot of intensive work and maintenance. There is evidence to show that when the rural population drops below a certain critical level the terraces can no longer be maintained and topsoil is washed down the hillsides. Intensive farming is not the menace that it is often portrayed.

3. Women and population control

The other modern justification for population control is the argument that it is in the interests of women to limit family size in the third world. By repackaging population control as something that benefits women, the policy has become more acceptable to more people.

Women should have the right to use contraception and abortion facilities as and when they need them. It is up to women themselves to determine when to have and when not to have children. Population control programmes in the South however are not ones which are run with the interests of women in mind. While promoting themselves as pro-women such programmes in fact have one objective in mind - namely to reduce third world fertility rates.

It becomes clear that reducing fertility is the objective of these policies when one looks at what matters are prioritised in so called family planning projects. Educating women about contraception and child spacing is given a very high priority as is the distribution of contraceptives. Other matters like treating infertility or setting up IVF programmes on the other hand are given no resources. Project organisers claim that this bias in favour of contraception is the result of the fact that there is an unmet need for contraception in places like Ghana. But there is no evidence that this unmet need exists except in the imaginations of the project organisers.

In a recent survey it was reported that over 90 percent of Ghanaian women are well aware of contraceptives, where to get them and how to use them. Only a much smaller percentage of women however use contraceptives. Moreover when the women were asked what was their ideal family size the average figure was just under five children. The average family in Ghana has just over five children indicating that by and large women are having for the families that they want. Promoting family planning as the most important unmet need of African women flies in the face of reality. Most women would no doubt claim that they were far more concerned about their unmet need for decent housing, clean water, productive industry and cheap foodstuffs.

4. A hidden agenda

Population control programmes may defy logic but they still remain extremely popular amongst the governments and politicians in Northern countries. Bodies like the Overseas Development Agency (the aid wing of the British Foreign Office) have done much to promote family planning projects in Southern nations. The ODA will now give 100 percent funding for projects that contain a family planning element. Other projects can only attract up to 50 percent government funding. The same funding policy can be found amongst other official donors like the World Bank.

In fact throughout the whole of the post war period Western nations–especially the USA - have systematically tried to promote population control programmes in various guises. Even when faced with fierce opposition from Southern nations the USA has rarely deflected from this task. At the Bucharest United Nations Conference on population in 1974 the USA was widely condemned as racist and imperialist for promoting such policies but it was not deflected from its desire to see such programmes through. True, US politicians went away and repackaged its programmes as women's reproductive health programmes but the real objective of reducing the fertility rates of people in the South remained.

Western politicians have been keen to push population control programmes because such programmes fit into their own particular way of seeing the world. Many establishment figures are worried about the fact that the (mainly black) populations of the South are expanding while the (mainly white) populations of Europe and America seem to be declining. It is no exaggeration to say that the Western establishment fear that power will shift to Southern nations. Such a sentiment can be seen in a recent article that was published in one of America's leading foreign policy journals.

The UN diplomat who wrote the piece compared the threat posed to the West by migration from the 'overcrowded' third world to the Japanese invasion of British-held Singapore in 1941. Like the Japanese, he notes, the modern 'invading armies' of the third world poor will 'also arrive on bicycles and on foot', but they will be 'moving without commanders or orders, and seeping slowly through porous borders' (K Mahbubani, 'The West and the rest', National Interest, Summer 1992).

Scratch the surface of the debate about population, and it begins to look more like a war between the Western nations and the rest.

Many other influential authors of our age touch upon this racial concern with population. In his pessimistic tract Preparing for the Twenty-First Century, Paul Kennedy questions whether, given the growth of third world population, 'Western values' can survive against the irrational, illiberal in&Mac223;uence of other cultures. In his description of a journey through Delhi in The Population Bomb, Paul Ehrlich exposes the emotional fears underlying the concern of Western intellectuals with population growth in the third world:

'My wife and daughter and I were returning to our hotel in an ancient taxi. The seats were hopping with fleas....The streets seemed alive with people. People eating, people washing, people sleeping. People visiting, arguing, and screaming. People thrusting their hands through the taxi window, begging. People defecating and urinating. People clinging to buses. People herding animals. People, people, people, people.'

As long as such sentiments continue to exist amongst influential individuals and organisations in the North about people in the South, it is understandable that many men and women in the South remain highly suspicious of population control programmes.



Now maybe i have a different angle on the whole thing but as humans we can put our heads together and come up with population control programmes without having to hunt and kill ourselves. Why then is it necessary to hunt and kill other animals to control their population. Would i then be right in saying that in not hunting and killing our overpopulated areas we are not actually having our best interests looked after.
 

marx2k

Active member
Veteran
Clarence said:
1. The problems of resource depletion are exaggerated

Arguments for population control have been around for a very long time but the population control lobby have yet to produce any convincing evidence that growing populations are about to outstrip the earth's natural resources.
The Reverend Thomas Malthus was the first person to argue that the growth in population would eventually outstrip food production. In a book published in 1798 called An Essay on the Principle of Population as it affects the future improvement of society, Malthus argued that the increase in population would very soon outstrip increases in productivity in food production. The earth would be unable to sustain humanity.

Time and science proved Malthus to be quite wrong. His argument was flawed because he ignored a number of factors in agricultural production. For a start productivity increases in food production have been massive. Over the last two hundred years science has combined with agriculture to transform food production out of all recognition to what existed previously. Increased productivity in food production was spurred by a number of scientific developments. These range from the use of machinery, the use of fertilisers and the use of genetics to the use of new techniques. In addition to this, land that was previously considered uncultivable has been brought into use as farming techniques improved. This can continue into the future. Even today humanity only uses eleven per cent of land for farming. Even at the present level of technology about 25 percent of the earth's land is suitable for food production. With further advances in technology this figure could very easily expand.

There is also the other side of that coin in which unsustainable and toxic practices have become commonplace in mid-size to factory farms. Not only do these practices harm the earth (farmers need to fert their soil more and more every year to get the same output), but they also put toxins into the people eating the food. Yes, we can get more food out of the land, but at what price?

In that there is a problem in food production in places like Africa, the problems do not stem from the fact that there are too many mouths to feed. Rather the problem stems from the fact that too many African farmers are using backward technology that is more suited to the age of Malthus than the end of the twentieth century.

Don't forget the fact that they're also under attack from blood thirsty regimes in their unstable countries. It's hard to farm when a separatist rebel is hacking off your arms, legs and lips.

2. New arguments for an old prejudice
[...]
It is argued that an increase in population leads to a more intensive use of land. This then necessarily leads to soil erosion and deterioration. But a look at farming techniques across the globe indicate that there is no correlation between population size and the state of the soil. The United States for example farms its land more than five times more intensively and therefore productively than Africa. And yet land in the US is less eroded than land in Africa. Ironically soil erosion is often caused by under-population rather than over-population. Hillside terracing, for example, requires a lot of intensive work and maintenance. There is evidence to show that when the rural population drops below a certain critical level the terraces can no longer be maintained and topsoil is washed down the hillsides. Intensive farming is not the menace that it is often portrayed.
What the author just said is that because people clear a hillside of factors that stop things like mudslides and soil erosion, you need people who will maintain the hillside to stop the mudslides and soil erosion. So therefore, underpopulation is a problem.
:fsu:

3. Women and population control

The other modern justification for population control is the argument that it is in the interests of women to limit family size in the third world. By repackaging population control as something that benefits women, the policy has become more acceptable to more people.

Women should have the right to use contraception and abortion facilities as and when they need them. It is up to women themselves to determine when to have and when not to have children. Population control programmes in the South however are not ones which are run with the interests of women in mind. While promoting themselves as pro-women such programmes in fact have one objective in mind - namely to reduce third world fertility rates.

Tell that to catholics.

It becomes clear that reducing fertility is the objective of these policies when one looks at what matters are prioritised in so called family planning projects. Educating women about contraception and child spacing is given a very high priority as is the distribution of contraceptives. Other matters like treating infertility or setting up IVF programmes on the other hand are given no resources. Project organisers claim that this bias in favour of contraception is the result of the fact that there is an unmet need for contraception in places like Ghana. But there is no evidence that this unmet need exists except in the imaginations of the project organisers.

Tell that to African AIDS patients.

In a recent survey it was reported that over 90 percent of Ghanaian women are well aware of contraceptives, where to get them and how to use them. Only a much smaller percentage of women however use contraceptives. Moreover when the women were asked what was their ideal family size the average figure was just under five children. The average family in Ghana has just over five children indicating that by and large women are having for the families that they want. Promoting family planning as the most important unmet need of African women flies in the face of reality. Most women would no doubt claim that they were far more concerned about their unmet need for decent housing, clean water, productive industry and cheap foodstuffs.

She can blame other Ghanans all with 5 kids each, competing for her share of the resources.

People in undeveloped countries tend to have more children instinctively to raise the chances of one of them surviving. You will see the same behavior in animals. But the expectations of a woman in her view of a ideal family size has more to do with social norms in that area. But those can be unlearned as well. Just look at the Chinese :)

4. A hidden agenda

Population control programmes may defy logic but they still remain extremely popular amongst the governments and politicians in Northern countries. Bodies like the Overseas Development Agency (the aid wing of the British Foreign Office) have done much to promote family planning projects in Southern nations. The ODA will now give 100 percent funding for projects that contain a family planning element. Other projects can only attract up to 50 percent government funding. The same funding policy can be found amongst other official donors like the World Bank.

I don't see this as a problem.

In fact throughout the whole of the post war period Western nations–especially the USA - have systematically tried to promote population control programmes in various guises. Even when faced with fierce opposition from Southern nations the USA has rarely deflected from this task. At the Bucharest United Nations Conference on population in 1974 the USA was widely condemned as racist and imperialist for promoting such policies but it was not deflected from its desire to see such programmes through. True, US politicians went away and repackaged its programmes as women's reproductive health programmes but the real objective of reducing the fertility rates of people in the South remained.

Even today, around many people when you suggest the idea of population control, they look at you like you're Hitler. To many people, children are "a blessing", regardless of what sort of impact these people have on an already crowded planet.

Western politicians have been keen to push population control programmes because such programmes fit into their own particular way of seeing the world. Many establishment figures are worried about the fact that the (mainly black) populations of the South are expanding while the (mainly white) populations of Europe and America seem to be declining. It is no exaggeration to say that the Western establishment fear that power will shift to Southern nations. Such a sentiment can be seen in a recent article that was published in one of America's leading foreign policy journals.

So is that saying that people pushing population control are just afraid of a black uprising?

The UN diplomat who wrote the piece compared the threat posed to the West by migration from the 'overcrowded' third world to the Japanese invasion of British-held Singapore in 1941. Like the Japanese, he notes, the modern 'invading armies' of the third world poor will 'also arrive on bicycles and on foot', but they will be 'moving without commanders or orders, and seeping slowly through porous borders' (K Mahbubani, 'The West and the rest', National Interest, Summer 1992).

Sounds like a person who doesn't want to give up their good seat in front of the TV .

Scratch the surface of the debate about population, and it begins to look more like a war between the Western nations and the rest.

Not sure about that. Even in America, you have a nation divided among people who think people should be allowed to do what they want with their bodies, and people who want to make sure you're doing what THEY want you to do with your body. Population control doesn't work in any country that tries it. Shining example is China. Instead of population control, they have a ridiculous amount of men for every woman there.

Many other influential authors of our age touch upon this racial concern with population. In his pessimistic tract Preparing for the Twenty-First Century, Paul Kennedy questions whether, given the growth of third world population, 'Western values' can survive against the irrational, illiberal in&Mac223;uence of other cultures. In his description of a journey through Delhi in The Population Bomb, Paul Ehrlich exposes the emotional fears underlying the concern of Western intellectuals with population growth in the third world:

'My wife and daughter and I were returning to our hotel in an ancient taxi. The seats were hopping with fleas....The streets seemed alive with people. People eating, people washing, people sleeping. People visiting, arguing, and screaming. People thrusting their hands through the taxi window, begging. People defecating and urinating. People clinging to buses. People herding animals. People, people, people, people.'

So I'm not sure how this jives with what was pasted earlier in the article. This seems to be FOR population control (though for the wrong reasons). The author here wants population control so HE doesn't have to deal with a rising 3rd world populace. Not so much so the suffering of THOSE people can be relieved.

Again, another case of someone not wanting to lose their seat on the couch :)


Now maybe i have a different angle on the whole thing but as humans we can put our heads together and come up with population control programmes without having to hunt and kill ourselves. Why then is it necessary to hunt and kill other animals to control their population. Would i then be right in saying that in not hunting and killing our overpopulated areas we are not actually having our best interests looked after.

I'm either really sleepy (I am) or that last sentence didn't make any sense. Please restate :) We will never work out a proper population control. The reason is that people have this insatiable need to breed. And you also have people going militant on anyone who thinks this overpopulation trend should be reversed.

Personally, our society (Americans) are so warped that we still can't get past gay people and the word 'vagina'... I'm not sure how there'd be a movement towards any sort of control (especially since these days, people have a very low tolerance for anything that takes away from their self-gratification)
 

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
Clarence said:
Ok agreed. But as humans when the same happens in our communities we find other ways of dealing with it.
Yeah... We're smarter than deer... Most of the time...
 

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
DogBoy said:
From the hunters point of view you feel it is your right to control and manage populations that nature has managed for years.
But, since man has completely interfered in that management, and made things out of balance, there needs to be human management to prevent further imbalance...

For example... Man has already interfered with an area so much that the habitat remaining can feed 200 deer through the winter... However, with all natural predators eliminated ,the deer can easily increase their numbers to 350 during the year... If no-one harvest 150 of those deer, then during that winter 350 will starve to death...

Everywhere where man has restricted and altered the environment, especially to the point where the systems mother nature uses to balance everything no longer exist, Man is responsible for taking up the slack...


Yes, it is tragic that mankind cannot exist in harmony with nature, without dominating and controlling and destroying her. But Man can't or won't, and because of it, management of natural resources is absolutely necessary.


Funny that you think people hunt to 'feel big and powerful'... I hunt to be closer to nature, not to dominate her... I hunt because I'm not too squeamish to do what others have made necessary, because unlike all of you who sit in your houses in your cities and eat your prepackaged meats and feel morally superior not actually 'taking a life', I do care about the conservation of natural resources through proper management... I've even spent time in the woods 'out of season' helping gather population data for the game and fish commission biologists...

If we'd left nature to her own devices, I'd say let her manage...
But since we've tied her hands, we have to help out...
 
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D

DogBoy

You think i've never taken an animals life? Why do you think i have trained to shoot, not to play with targets made of paper though that is how i improve. I kill, i'm human.

I think we agree with the causes but the solution is where we differ.

I appreciate the deer will explode and do damage but nature is fully capable of allowing them to starve back down to a sensible number. Now ask yourself why you say the environ is only able to support a small number of deer. Could it be that the small habitat is due to the fact that man has taken the rest of the state, country etc away from the deer. It all comes back to mans greed and inability to live with nature.

why do i think hunters 'feel big and powerful'?

Read any hunters thread and they rarely mention the good they have done the environment. It's always about how cool the shot was or how well the hunt went. All the things that make them happy.

I dont refer to you personally and my posts are not attacking anyone, simply offering a different view. If you continue to hunt and do what you feel is good then thats great. If my post offers you a moments ponderance on how things could be done differently then i have succeeded in my goal. I seek only to offer a different way, not judge on the validity of other methods.

It comes down to the fact that it's going wrong, we can apportion blame or we can discuss new ways of doing things. Personally i think blame is a mugs game so i'm happy to just chat and hopefully work towards resolution.
 

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
No worries DogBoy... I know nothing's personal... I'm just inserting my 2¢ same as you, and mean nothing personal either...

I wish you could offer an actual viable alternative method of dealing with the situation as it currently exist.

I state you cite unreliable sources and that your hunting ethic is based on greed, selfishness and a self supremacy notion. Can you prove me wrong? I dont sit with the hunters or the anti hunters so i'm curious to see how you will reply.

Often as I creep through the woods, stalking an animal which is very aware of the presence of potential predators, I think of the of the attitudes of the native american hunters of old... Not at all separate from nature, or seeking to dominate nature, or prove any superiority... When the native hunter would take game, he would thank the spirit of the animal, and was very conscious of the part we all play in the ecosystem... He viewed himself and all creatures as brother spirits, each with a part to play...

I don't have to prove anything... I know why I hunt, and it's neither greed nor ego...

As far as wether it is an enjoyable activity or not... Of course it is... Does every labor worth performing need to be unpleasant?

Why must you look down on someone who is proud of their skill?
Of course, 'canned hunting' where you sit in a box and shoot an unknowing animal is nothing to be proud of... but... Spending a months scouting an area for sign... Then stalking an animal which has a superior sense of smell, hearing, and vision... an animal with superior camouflage and stealth... and killing it without 'spooking' it... does require alot of skill, and is something one can unashamedly take pride in...

The Idea of man hunting man is not new...
The only ones who would have any intrest in that are the same type of asshats who give real hunters a bad name in the first place...

If you have any Ideas on how to properly care for the small crippled ecosystems we've created, without taking the life of other organisms, then I'd love to hear them...
 
D

DogBoy

There you see the hole in my case. I have no solution, i'm just a normal dude like everyone else. If i had the answer rest assured i'd be shouting it but i fear the only answer is the destruction of all animals. Only then will man willingly do something about it, and even then i dont think we will make the right choice as it's impossible to get all the US's 12.5 million hunters to agree. Not that this is just a US problem.

I also dont want to come across as having a soap box, just an opinion i stand firmly behind.
 
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Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
DogBoy said:
There you see the hole in my case. I have no solution, i'm just a normal dude like everyone else. If i had the answer rest assured i'd be shouting it but i fear the only answer is the destruction of all animals. Only then will man willingly do something about it, and even then i dont think we will make the right choice as it's impossible to get all the US's 12.5 million hunters to agree. Not that this is just a US problem.

I also dont want to come across as having a soap box, just an opinion i stand firmly behind.
Absolutely...
If you don't stand behind what you believe, then it doesn't mean much...
And, if we don't discuss what we believe, no one ever gains alternate perspective...
 

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
Clarence said:
This is the most recent hunting episode in England. Wow and check out who is in the thick of it all. Our own very innocent Prince Harry. Nothing like leading by example. What was that....there are only twenty pairs of Hen Harriers in England. Oooopsadaisy recalculate. Make that nineteen

http://www.guardian.co.uk/monarchy/story/0,,2202160,00.html
This was not a HUNTING episode at all...
At best it was a poaching episode, more accurately it was an illegal destruction of an protected animal...

Harry is just the type of cruel thoughtless asshat who give real hunters a bad name...
 
D

DogBoy

Lets not confuse Harry and hunters. Hunting means you went to find your prey, not took a step out into the back garden and popped a few shots off at the first living being you saw. Harry may be an asshat but he's certainly no hunter.
 

Clarence

FUZZY WUZZY
Veteran
Grat3fulh3ad said:
This was not a HUNTING episode at all...
At best it was a poaching episode, more accurately it was an illegal destruction of an protected animal...

Harry is just the type of cruel thoughtless asshat who give real hunters a bad name...


I could not agree with you more. And was pretty much the whole reason why i put the link up. It is pretty self explanatory. As with anything else on the planet there are always asshats, as you put it, who tarnish things for others. Unfortunately most people end up taking notice of the bad but not the good.
 

RED145

Member
Family farm=500 acres
tillable=300
managed woodlot=50 acres
estimated deer population = 14 deer per square mile

I take 2 deer a year,thats all I need.I could get numerous tags because of being a landowner for nuisance animals.deer,turkey do major crop damage to any farmer.The deer and turkey population is becoming way out of control.Management is key,it is fact that the deer and turkey population is 3 times what it was in the 1800's.Kill ethically,eat what you kill and I got no problems.
Now,being a modern hunter and it snowing like hell this am,I will smoke a bowl and load the stove before I go check my game cam!!Got a dandy 10 hangin out buy some still standin corn,just waiting to drop string on him.

Now get out there and hunt hard fellas,bucks are running does real hard right now,the ruts on!!!! :jump:

ps H3ad,
Deer are WAY smarter than us,25 yrs ago before tree stands you would NEVER see a deer looking up in trees,now thats all they do.there smart,they learn,and there tenderloins are so good it'll make your tongue slap your brains out.
 

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
RED145 said:
ps H3ad,
Deer are WAY smarter than us,25 yrs ago before tree stands you would NEVER see a deer looking up in trees,now thats all they do.there smart,they learn,and there tenderloins are so good it'll make your tongue slap your brains out.

Nah... we're smarter... 25 yrs ago we didn't have game cameras, or motion sensors, or night vision... everyone didn't have an ATV with a gun rack... they could drive right up to their stand... Couldn't get a call from your buddy on the cell phone to tell you of the one headed up the trail toward you...

We've made alot of advances in our ability to kill deer more effectively in the last 25 years... Deer have learned to look up...
 
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RED145

Member
Well I could argue but whats the point,We are at the top of the food chain for a reason.I cant recall the source,but somewere I read that within 2 days of you entering and hunting a piece of land,every deer in the woods knows your mo,were ya go,how you look smell etc.
modern tools may have helped in our ability to find deer,but killing them still is and always will be up to the hunter.just because I know a certain deer is at point a every day at 6am doesnt mean I can kill him any easier.Ya still gotta make the shot,and loads of hunters cant.more than half the given tags dont get filled,even with all the modern tech.
I dont have a gun rack on my polaris,its a bow holder! :wave:

No One I know is calling buddies up on a cell phone to tell them a deer is coming,lol
 
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Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
RED145 said:
Well I could argue but whats the point,We are at the top of the food chain for a reason.I cant recall the source,but somewere I read that within 2 days of you entering and hunting a piece of land,every deer in the woods knows your mo,were ya go,how you look smell etc.
modern tools may have helped in our ability to find deer,but killing them still is and always be up to the hunter.just because I know a certain deer is at point a every day at 6am doesnt mean I can kill him any easier.Ya still gotta make the shot,and loads of hunters cant.more than half the given tags dont get filled,even with all the modern tech.
I dont have a gun rack on my polaris,its a bow holder! :wave:
Oh absolutely, their senses are more finely tuned than ours... they have superior camouflage and steath...
That's what I meant when I was talking about the skill necessary to track one...

But smarter?

I know exactly how difficult hunting is... been doing it all my life... you have no argument from me there...
 
D

DogBoy

It's not about arguing, it's about making a valid point and sticking by it. Head and i have disagreed but both made points. Dont give up your side so easily.

We are at the top of the food chain as we were the first mammals to introduce tools which were subsequently improved on. No other animal uses tools like we do so it's no surprise really. Your bow is no doubt a recurve or compound bow which instantly gives you one distinct advantage. Range. Nature has never had to evolve to deal with something so quickly as mans invention of ranged weapons which is why we are the top of the tree. Evolution comes slowly to all but man.
 

RED145

Member
I'm not arguing,I know that acedemically we are smarter than any creature on the globe.As usuall H3ad knew what I was talking about,huntin is hard.
Our brains make us top of the food chain,not ranged weapons.Of course we could say a rock is a ranged weapon,They have made killing more humane.First man would drive herds off of cliffs to kill,no weapons.Spears made it easier to kill as did the natural progression of weapons.But in the begining there was just man,no weapon other than brain,and we killed.
No matter how you look at it there will always be a need to kill and to eat,we are carnivores and cannot survive on just a vegan diet.
 

marx2k

Active member
Veteran
Grat3fulh3ad said:
Of course, 'canned hunting' where you sit in a box and shoot an unknowing animal is nothing to be proud of... but...

I thought canned hunting was jackasses who pay to hunt on an enclosed area with animals released into the enclosed area for the sole purpose of being killed by these jackasses? Enclosed area as in an acre or two with fences all around.
 

marx2k

Active member
Veteran
RED145 said:
Well I could argue but whats the point,We are at the top of the food chain for a reason.

Remove your hunting tools and suddenly your place in the food chain becomes reconfigured.
 
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