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2.64w CCFL nano vert cab

ScrubNinja

Grow like nobody is watching
Veteran
Crake, I'll be giving it a go I reckon, if it has enough light to strike roots. All I need for 1gpw is a half gram bud from each plant although I was thinking about it and I'll probably want to keep these particular cuts if they do take. I'll work something out though. Maybe seed, maybe more cuts. I think there's a lot of sense going low wattage for yield (as in gpw). I've even seen knna discuss this so I know I'm not crazy. I've not seen anything approach this low of a wattage except for joke setups. And I'm 4 realz, lol. Well, sort of. :smoke:

MG, thanks, one thing I should make clear is that I always take a lot of photos and choose the best looking ones. I can make it look dim or bright, so I do go on the bright side, for the sake of great photos. In reality, it's dimmer than you guys see, by quite a bit. I'll try to take a representative shot next photo shoot, but even then it depends on many things like the colour calibration of our screens and so forth. Another factor is that they look quite high in kelvins in most pics. To my eye (in person) it probably looks around 3000-3500k (the bulbs are the "orange" ones). However, this means little in my opinion, and is possibly a good example of why kelvins are potentially inaccurate. I suspect there is not a lot of difference between the various colours, with the Bitspower bulbs, at least.

They do give off virtually no heat. I mean, they can only give off 2 to 3 watts of heat at the very most, because that's science. That's all they're drawing, and the only source of energy in there, so that's all there can be. On the whole though, these are less efficient than regular hot cathode fluoros, I believe. I got bit on the ass with my high-pod clone because I underestimated the heat these guys put out though. It's just a different way of working. The clear tube was undoubtedly the biggest problem in cooling them.

I haven't even put a thermometer in there because I can just tell it's ambient. When I open the pizza box, I mean door, I quickly feel the tips of the bulbs and it's hard to detect any heat at all. Seriously, it's like touching your skin, just faint warmth. But if I turn off the fan, or when I had it running in those tube/no-tube somparisons, they do get hot, and yes, actually hot. So as long as you have a bare trickle of air on the uncovered bulbs, there is little heat to dissipate. It takes a while for them to build up enough heat to be hot, whereas a CFL would heat up fairly instantly. If I let it build up to max heat, I can still hold the tip, and then the heat just dissipates into your hand. In other words yeah you can grow them right on the bulbs with the clear tubes, and I'm very confident I can with no tube too.



Crake, for the above reasons, I wouldn't personally use them for a "large" grow like you suggested. Put simply, 1ft 8w T-5's would be a much better choice - much easier to replicate known systems, and you can get SPDs, proper horticultural bulbs, and choice, specs, and efficiency in general. The best useage of CCFL is, in my opinion, in miniscule nano cabs where nothing else will fit. I mean, LEDs would fit but they have their own set of barriers. I could throw a 5w CFL in there but that takes up a lot of room and breaks the flow/balance. I would also have to remote ballast it, and I wouldn't have multiple light sources like the CCFLs.

What I did, eventually, was to analyse my experiences, and the others', and think, instead of trying to hammer these lights into my way of thinking, I will make the best of the situation, and let the lights decide how I use them. I worked with them. One of my favourite sayings especially when it comes to growing: It's not what you use, but how you use it. So for something this low power, it's gotta be used at 100% efficiency, and not a sliver less, and that's what I've got. :)

*rests fingers in ice water*
 

watson540

Member
hey scrub, nah the ozone gennie didnt work for me cause i was using a "Wall wart" plug for an inkjet printer..if i HAD used a computer supply it would have worked..the one I used would only put out 1 amp at 12 volts, though I did get corona between the foil it just wouldn't arc through the glass..

hopefully my neon transformer should get into the mail very soon..technically it should already be in the mail but im giving the guy from ebay a break since its the holidays

the odd thing is I never understood why you can buy a cold cathode for 5 bucks, and a neon transformer by itself it like 25 bucks used, and they both put out the exact same power..10,00 volts at 300 milli-amps!
 

ScrubNinja

Grow like nobody is watching
Veteran
Hmm you lost me there bro :) Does the neon transformer act like a ccfl inverter so you don't need an inverter?
 

ScrubNinja

Grow like nobody is watching
Veteran
No probs, and now that I think of it, this one I posted is fairly representative of the overall brightness and kelvin in there. Maybe slightly warmer in kelvin.

 

StealthDragon

Recovering UO addict.
Veteran
How they holdin up Scrub? Do yo have any plans for the return wire or are ya just gonna "freeball" it?

I never mentioned this in past posts but after about a week or so I started to get a slight whine from one or 2 of the bulbs...not noticeable unless I stick my ear at them, but they definitely didn't make that noise when I first got them. Do all yours do that?
 

ScrubNinja

Grow like nobody is watching
Veteran
Pretty shithouse bro, I was gonna post pics later and I still will. I doubt any will live though. I'll replace the dying cuts with seeds and see if they fare any better. I massacred my flowering plants to get the cuts so :mad:

No problems at all with the returns but I don't ever go in there though. I know it's not safe but in the name of science, the bulbs have been soaked in water spray without issue. No noise at all that I can hear. Sure it's not your power supply? My supply (same style as yours) makes a whine just like you described, where it didn't when new.
 

ScrubNinja

Grow like nobody is watching
Veteran
Okay cancel the pics, I ripped the clones out in disgust and shame. They all had the stems shrivel/brown. Will load up with 6 x Crappy Outdoor seeds in a minute.

I would like to make a bubble cloner that fits in there neatly but I'll have to go container shopping. Temps probably get up to 85 in there since it's summer and no air-con, is that too hot for a bubble cloner? I read that bubblers are better than aero cloners in high temps but maybe I'm too high for bubbles even?
 

StealthDragon

Recovering UO addict.
Veteran
Damn sorry to hear that bro, they can be fussy little girls sometimes.

Kind of ironic that I'm about to ditch my bubblecloner and switch to cloning in soil. I just took a temp reading off my cloner and it was @ 70 degrees, I wish it was a little higher though I notice quite a difference in the lower temps. I used to run it in the high 70's during the summer and had much faster results. Maybe I'll switch over to a ww cfl...should raise temps a few degrees. Man do you have one of those temperature guns? the laser ones..I think maybe we discussed this before...but damn those things are awesome coolest toy I've bought in a long time!! After having one I'd pay 2x as much for it!

I think you would be ok at 85..can't say for sure I didn't take mine over 80. Just keep a close eye(feel) out for slime and clean it well when you change water. I'm lazy and clean mine out about every 2 weeks and my clones are suffering because of it(I think I lost a few this round). Ideally I should be changing the water every week, as well as cleaning everything. I just reach in a touch the airline once in a while and feel for slime...seems like that's the first place it builds up. Can you move it to any cooler part of the house if necessary?

On the ccfls I'm positive the sound is coming from the bulbs. I pulled a blue one out of the case and could barely hear it. It got a little louder as I held the bulb at different angles or jiggled it.

I'm starting to love container shopping btw..it's awesome finding some random container that's perfect for growing weed in. Score!
 

ScrubNinja

Grow like nobody is watching
Veteran
Thanks for the detailed reply bro! You gotta change the water? Nahhh too much effort for me right from the get go :D Sadly the whole house is this hot, or hotter!

I have this 5 litre square container with a lid that slots in perfectly, but I'd have to mount the lights more traditionally - on the roof horizontally. And it would still be a tight squeeze on top. Oh well I might try it in winter.

You ever think about using hydrogen peroxide? I keep reading about it and bought some in case it comes in handy for hydro. I think it may have helped in the coco.
 

ScrubNinja

Grow like nobody is watching
Veteran
Alright! I never seem to have enough of what I want! I ended up going with some random bagseed. This actually means it's seed I've made but have no idea what it is, and it may/may not be several strains mixed in, and probably sativa leaning. They may turn out as freaks like most of the other seeds I made about that time. So we'll see what happens.

I had 5 seeds in the bag, and only 4 jiffy pellets so I planted 4 and split the worst looking seed and it was white and fleshy inside :yes: A good start at least.

Planted straight into the pellets, no soaking.

picture.php


I measured the temp on the lowest fan speed (17db) and it's below ambient as expected. I'd just removed the sensor from my cupboard when the pic was taken in case you're wondering. I'll try to get some more Leda Uno seeds, they're rather indica and would be quite suitable.

It would be cool to do a perpetual sog grow in jiffy pellets! I could probably fit about 20 in. :)
 

ScrubNinja

Grow like nobody is watching
Veteran
Thanks dude! I forget if I mentioned this, but it's wierd how you can see the bulbs themselves cast shadows :eek:

If things get hectic in there, I have a small amount left of a PGR which could come in very handy here. I don't smoke or like the stuff but no arguing it would eliminate stretch completely. And since it's not exactly gonna be supplying me with any meaningful amount of 'erb, I may just try it. It's the strangest results you'll ever see in growing, I guarantee :)
 

sx646522

Member
Leave it to Scrub for doing another fine McFrankenGyver Ninja grow!

Forget about experimenting with a how-low-can-you-go grow with the CCFL, might as well do it up right and add a few more watts - eh, Scrub?

To your point, best to maximize these by doing a vertical, since even the best reflector with a radial source light will still lose too high a % of lumens, which you can't afford to do using lights like these.

Looking at your and SD's earlier efforts originally made me want to do a T - light (horizontally mounted top (roof) and a middle wall) with CCFL, but now I think it's best to do it up something like this (with vert bulbs):

(Top-Down View)


picture.php



C = Cathode (Red, Blue, White (Black))
X = Plant

(Note: Drawing not to scale.)

That's not exactly how I'd place the colors, but you get the idea. More like a 2-1 red over blue/white, maybe start with blue (and perhaps white also) only, and scale up once sex is shown.

That way, there's at least two plants on either side of each light, and each plant gets light from two (or three - for the middle row) sides, using the six plant example. Expand the matrix as needed and add additional rows for better plant/light coverage ratios, and put reflective material close around the resulting edges. (You'll lose some light at the edges, but you'll also have better plant illumination/coverage - a decent trade-off, IMO.) What say you?

You're going to be growing for a few months either way, might as well get some yield out of them! :) That'd make it the coolest grow on the net--!


Cheers mate,

-SX


P.S. Now, do the above as stated (but anchored from below) and then add some LEDs up top, and now you have a garden! Call it a Micro CCFLED-Tron... :)
 

ScrubNinja

Grow like nobody is watching
Veteran
G'day SX, welcome to the madhouse :D I have the option of adding in a ton more bulbs if it needs it but by the same token, I get plenty of smoke from my other cab, so no worries about experiments.

Sorry, but I've put a lotta thought into this. I'm gonna have to rag on your diagram there, in a friendly way of course. The thing is, I'm approaching this from a gpw yield perspective. Each of my bulbs may be p*ss-weak, but 100% of the bulbs are shining on plants, from close up. Total bulb access to plants: 100% no less. Full efficiency.

Check out your red C's on the wall. Approx 90º of each bulb is wasted on the wall. Now check out the 2 central clusters of 2 blue, and 2 white. Hmmm 4 fluoro tubes in close proximity. What does that remind me of? Yep, you just made the worlds most expensive CFL aka the most wasteful light I can think of. You can space them out a bit but still, there is no plant in the centre...that light is more or less wasted because it's petered out by the time it would hit a plant. I'd say you'd have approx 90º of wasteage on those bulbs.

Put simply, a simple checkerboard design is the most efficient for a setup like that, imo. B=Bulb, P = Plant.

BPBPBP
PBPBPB
BPBPBP

You'd still lose out on the outer bulbs unless you simply remove them. Remember, this is strictly gpw stuff, not how big your buds are etc. 100% of the bulbs would be used and contributing to plant growth directly (once the outers are removed). If you tally up the wasteage in your proposed setup, I would estimate you have about 3 bulbs worth of wasted light. That will not help your gpw. Of course, a lot changes because this is so extremely low wattage. Maybe my two tiny bulbs simply aren't enough to even flower a bud, so efficiency could be moot. That's what we'll find out. :)

Now, the next issue is that you're using coloured bulbs. The important thing to understand is that they still put out a spectrum of light. The red bulbs don't put out only red light for example. All the colours put out a mixed spectrum of sorts, from what I can tell. This is using the Bitspowers. If you look up some recent posts there's a lot of good info on spectrums, kelvins etc. Basically my point is that if we spectrally analysed a red light for example, it could potentially be made up of mostly blue light, or whatever. Stealth says his are different, so I'm not ruling it out, just that I'd be very skeptical these lights could do that. If it worked like that, all fluoro makers would be releasing lights like this. Instead it's a very expensive process involving a lot of science. These ccfl makers can't even work out velcro or glue that sticks, so I don't believe they could target their fluoro spectrum so well.

Sorry for the long winded reply, I'm definitely not saying you couldn't kick my ass even for gpw with that proposed setup. You should build it and we'll see. :D:yes: Thank you for taking the time to diagram it and respond, and best of luck.
 

sx646522

Member
G'day SX, welcome to the madhouse :D I have the option of adding in a ton more bulbs if it needs it but by the same token, I get plenty of smoke from my other cab, so no worries about experiments...

Sorry, but I've put a lotta thought into this. I'm gonna have to rag on your diagram there, in a friendly way of course...


Now, the next issue is that you're using coloured bulbs...(edit)

Sure, go ahead and crap all over my diagram lol! Gotcha. No worries, I agree with what you said if going strictly for g/w. Any other way and you lose efficiency in the system.

Yeah, my diag's not to scale, looks like the lights are closer than they are (would be), but I see your point. Best efficiency would be using plant/bulb, with plants around the outside of the garden edge, equidistant from the lights at all times.

Most light would be from a four-sided box around each plant and CCFL's up top, too.

My version kinda split the difference, but I was going for better intensity, also... a half and half. Your way is definitely better for g/w, but who knows if it'll produce any bud? Guess we'll see--!

Haven't seen any real data on nm/spectrum for these from either the Bitspower or Logisys sites, to be sure - if it's stuck in your last thread, suppose it's time to go slog through it and read for a couple hours... I noticed you use(d) blue for veg in the past, though. With normal CFL it's just the phosphor that determines spectrum, and efficiencies definitely vary (though less lumens at a proper spectrum may be better than more at an inefficient PAR watt output). Is your current take on this that the whites are most efficient overall and would support decent growth throughout the grow, and/or are you planning to use any others during this cycle?

(I'm also wondering what the lifespan is for these using a single inverter per CCFL vs. 1-2, as you mentioned...not that mine would be a long-term experiment, mind you...)

Once I'm back in town and settled next year, hopefully I'll build it out and show you what I mean!

Happy New Year Scrub, :)

-SX
 

ScrubNinja

Grow like nobody is watching
Veteran
Thanks buddy I hope it's prosperous for everybody :yes:

I don't think the lifespan would be much of an issue. If you look on youtube there are demonstrations of these lights in sound activation mode with drum'n'bass etc and they can take quite a barrage of abuse, strobing like crazy. That's sort of the benefit of them, they're a bit hardier internally I believe.

Yeah an important thing to remember is that I'm no authority really, I can be wrong about anything :) The only results we have to go on use these computer style coloured lights, so it's all speculation really. 420.se used a clear/white from a scanner but that was only for rooting cuttings.

My current thoughts are: I dunno! lol. I tend to think clear/white would be best. On the other hand, I was reading on g-cure about hanging red tinted cellophane on your growroom walls. Dude claimed there were hard results with tomato plants, but I didn't read too closely.

So maybe the colour does have an effect. I mainly used the blues because of an idea you can influence the sex of the seed, blue light supposedly creates more females. So, I figured blue would be better than red, lol. More to the point, I wasn't interested in any kind of mix, I just wanted to see what one colour bulb will do, and one day I can compare that to the other colours, because like I said, I'm skeptical there's much difference. The mini high-pod thing taught me nothing about how each colour will grow a plant, because it was one big mashup.

With normal CFL it's just the phosphor that determines spectrum

Exactly, and it's the same for any fluoro, and these are fluoros too. Hmmmm. It's way confusing because we know that the tubes are all the same colour when turned off, so it must be the phosphor making the colour, so I dunno. Pedro is my current IC lighting guru...any thoughts man?

I noticed mention of some USB device which prints out SPDs. We seriously need one of those up in here! :D

I hear you on the intensity thing. As a generalisation, I look at indoor growing two ways now - either for a high yield gpw... or more of a conissuer grow that gives you bigger and/or better bud quality with possibly a decrease in yield.

This is the orange bulbs I'm using at the moment, in a cd. Not much can be derived from this other than it puts out more than orange. :xmasnut:

 

ScrubNinja

Grow like nobody is watching
Veteran
Cheers buddy :) I hope to have some pics soon when they sprout, although what seed run is complete without letting the jiffies get bone dry? :biglaugh: It seems even on minimum, I still have too much air flow.
 

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