10 - Agrobar 720s over 6 - 4x8.5 ft rolling benches. F & D FTW

[Crooked8]

Thank you so much! How close did you get the tops to the lights? They are so close but look so good! Are the top buds closest any less terpy/smelly or the same as the rest?

Cheers!

They were too close this run. This is the closest ive ever gotten, some tops were 4-5ish inches away from bars. Way too close tbh. No less terpy, the only issue is the varied response when it comes to photobleaching. Our ogs all photobleached a little, the truffle and truffle mintz could be seriously 4-5 inches away and not one sign of stress or bleaching, its wild. This has been added to my list of things to consider when i place which strains in which location.

 

[urislav3000]

Hi very informative description of all your grows thanks for that.

I would be interested in your climate concept. What is the arrangement of your ac and your dehumidifiers. With the carbon filter I assume that you are not running a closed system? Is your mum and colne room also connected to it?

 

[fonzee]

Read this whole thing
Good stuff, thanks

You seem to operate the grows very profesionally, and your numbers are impressive

Want to drop this one off

Effect of Potassium (K) Supply on Cannabinoids, Terpenoids and Plant Function in Medical Cannabis

We have demonstrated in previous studies that the essential macro-nutrients nitrogen (N) and phosporous (P) have profound effects on the production of cannabinoids and terpenoids in the cannabis plant. The present study was undertaken to evaluate the hypothesis that potassium (K) supply, which...

www.mdpi.com

This regards quality drops with K increase
I have been seeing same effect in my experience

And what about light reflectors for the sides?

 

[weedemart]

You can't achieve top tier results if you dont have everything dialed in and as other and I stated your nutrients solution is not optimal , other than that I think you could be limited by the size of the slab. Would be interesting to know how much you yield by slab on average. If you let the slab dry too much it will affect yield too.

Anyway it all depend on various factor.

theorical yield is dli * yield factor * number of days / surface

at constant dli , the number of days will have significant impact on the final yield, in theory.

thats why you can achieve incredible result on some metrics but it doesnt tell you if it outperformed a different scenario because it took longer time to achieve those result.

the sqft metrics have to be in balance with the effiency of the method to be cost-effective.

 

[Crooked8]

Happy Ladies
Week 3

 

[Crooked8]

All smooth in here so far, happy ladies, lights at 80%.

No matter what my truffle mintz curls downward. Its just a genetic trait. The budsite foliage does it from the start. Nothing else in the room is doing it,
TM curl….

Roots look terrific….

Everything else NOT curling…..

Transplanted clones as well, veg going strong

I dont think the TM curl issue is correctable, or even a real issue. Gg4 always has leaf twist, could simply just be an expression but im done obsessing over it

 

[Ca++]

You might be going in a bit heavy with the feed. Overall there isn't much praying, but a bit of sagging. Some elongation that might be excessive, and the red stress markers that kinda bring it all together. They may need a bit more RH, or a bit less feed, to really look vigourous.

I realise you like this feed, and must run enough to get the K you need. There is a picture emerging though, where your plants look like they don't want so much N, and N in turn, antagonises K. Perhaps you have reached the point, where this feed is the next thing to change. Which would mean getting a lab to see what's really hiding in it. Before you could find something essentially the same, but with lower N. Alternatively, you could lower the EC 10%? then put the PK back. Just to have a look at what might be achieved.

Are you running a bit more EC than usual, or more regular applications? I don't remember seeing one of your crops like this. There looks like more branching in general.

 

[Crooked8]

You might be going in a bit heavy with the feed. Overall there isn't much praying, but a bit of sagging. Some elongation that might be excessive, and the red stress markers that kinda bring it all together. They may need a bit more RH, or a bit less feed, to really look vigourous.

I realise you like this feed, and must run enough to get the K you need. There is a picture emerging though, where your plants look like they don't want so much N, and N in turn, antagonises K. Perhaps you have reached the point, where this feed is the next thing to change. Which would mean getting a lab to see what's really hiding in it. Before you could find something essentially the same, but with lower N. Alternatively, you could lower the EC 10%? then put the PK back. Just to have a look at what might be achieved.

Are you running a bit more EC than usual, or more regular applications? I don't remember seeing one of your crops like this. There looks like more branching in general.

I disagree regarding the feed strength/N. I significantly lowered our base. Were seeing textbook N deficiency this run on a few strains like white truffle and truffle mintz. Just standard lower leaf chlorosis. I backed the feed down this run compared to last by a solid 10-15%. RH is in check, we’re in week 3 sitting around 60%. What makes you suspect too much N? That downward curl i displayed as explained is just one strain. Nothing else is curling down. Also, downward curl is not always associated with Nitrogen. Not having any K issues either this past few runs or this one thus far. The more branching could just be these photos or strains in these shots. I think this run seems pretty similar structurally to our last one but i could be wrong. Time will tell! So will the tissue tests im sending off this week . I did notice that the TM does have some redish stem action but thats it. Pretty much all other stems are green. I dunno, here i thought they were looking good but you have the eye and youve got me second guessing .

 

[Ca++]

Maybe they need some nitrous oxide (nos). Then they will grow like fock, and we will all be pissing ourselves
I have been in a similar situation, with dropping leaves, yet very green curling at the top. It can be a few things as you say, so it's good to hear it's not an overall N toxicity. Though that leaves me wondering. Just today I'm feeding low, dropping leaves, raising the N to find what some new plants like. While looking at the solitary kinky leaf. Folding itself from some odd growth spurt. It's in the lower stuff though, and so an accumulation over time seems more likely. At the top, it's usually a more recent change that happened. High watering frequency, with low nh4 can pump them full of water quickly (we are told). I have noticed water use increases a lot at the onset of buds. This could be a cause for over feeding, in some cases.
Do you increase light, watching the top leaves as an indicator? Maybe I'm seeing some sag, as you just tweaked the lights. That tends to increase water flow to the top, and reduce the praying appearance.

It's good to hear you just did a tissue sample. It's a lot more use than a bro's opinion of a few pics. I look forward to seeing that

 

[Crooked8]

Maybe they need some nitrous oxide (nos). Then they will grow like fuck, and we will all be pissing ourselves
I have been in a similar situation, with dropping leaves, yet very green curling at the top. It can be a few things as you say, so it's good to hear it's not an overall N toxicity. Though that leaves me wondering. Just today I'm feeding low, dropping leaves, raising the N to find what some new plants like. While looking at the solitary kinky leaf. Folding itself from some odd growth spurt. It's in the lower stuff though, and so an accumulation over time seems more likely. At the top, it's usually a more recent change that happened. High watering frequency, with low nh4 can pump them full of water quickly (we are told). I have noticed water use increases a lot at the onset of buds. This could be a cause for over feeding, in some cases.
Do you increase light, watching the top leaves as an indicator? Maybe I'm seeing some sag, as you just tweaked the lights. That tends to increase water flow to the top, and reduce the praying appearance.

It's good to hear you just did a tissue sample. It's a lot more use than a bro's opinion of a few pics. I look forward to seeing that

Every 2-3 days im upping them 5%, so a bump may have just happened. I dunno, well see when the lab gets back to us. Doing 3 of our house strains this time.

 

[Ca++]

3? nice. Is the curly one on the list.

I wish I could dial things in with tissue sampling. That's a serious tool at your disposal. I have done run-off every week, and even more regular through transition. Tissue is the real deal though. Some farmers have never even checked their fields. They are still professional growers, but you are getting into Bachelor's degree agronomy now. I hope you continue to bring us all along for the ride

 

[Crooked8]

3? nice. Is the curly one on the list.

I wish I could dial things in with tissue sampling. That's a serious tool at your disposal. I have done run-off every week, and even more regular through transition. Tissue is the real deal though. Some farmers have never even checked their fields. They are still professional growers, but you are getting into Bachelor's degree agronomy now. I hope you continue to bring us all along for the ride

We are on the fence about keeping the Truffle Mintz, she checks a LOT of boxes. Great terps, very candied grapey gasoline and truffle earthy back end, leaves a very sweet candied flavor on the tongue. Very cool color, massive yield, but she seems irritated with our light intensity. I wanted to test her but ultimately decided its best to check on our front runners, the Tom Ford Og, White Truffle(also displays the downward curl just more towards the end, and is the parent of Truffle Mintz) and Raskals Fire. It wasnt cheap so its a tough choice. If we keep the Truffle Mintz or have an ah ha moment here from these results ill test her next. Im testing a ton of genetics at the moment. 8 female testers this run. 10 more going in next run.

Here is what i meant by N deficiency displayed here with this N hungry looking white truffle….

Its not the only hungry gal, but all the hungry ladies are white truffle or tom ford which feed heavy.

Here is what i meant about the red stems up top with light exposure vs below looking green and healthy, this top to bottom of the same plant…..

So i dunno, i think these lights are a lot to handle and some of them can handle it while others cant. Thankfully ive got a lot to play with soon.

8 testers this run:
-3 peat og - dna
-92 og - dna
-Triangle kush s1 - csi
-Nana glue - square one - 2 phenos
-WTF - white truffle x tom ford og - our own breeding - 2 phenos
Three Blue Kings - Humboldt seed co

Those are all in flower and thus far are stable females.

Coming up next im focusing on more candied stuff since the market is all about “candy gas” here.
Seedlings in Veg
2 - Giggle Gas - Solfire
2 - Bahama Bussdown - Solfire
2 - Peach Candy - La Chanavriere
2 - Lemon Cherry Gelato Bx1 - LIT
2 - Apples and Bananas x LIT OG - LIT

The goal after its all said and done is to keep 12 strains. Dripping in terps, icy looking and yielders who can handle 1400+ umol without being all bitchy like TM haha.

 

[Ca++]

The reports will be interesting. I can hear myself back peddling as I look at them more and more. I can't accept that red is light intensity, when you are around 250w per meter. Not unless there is a problem with the lights. I'm still not quite grasping the science, but there has been suggestion that the red is sugars that didn't get used. P is important to move them about, and in other aspects of there use. Yet P isn't really reported as showing like this. The view up through some leaves, shows stripes likely from a metals issue. These stripes look a light colour, suggesting Mg. Mg being the other red stems relation. However, there is a little Ca showing also. It's a lot going on. If they were not curling I would of said more food. This is of course why tissue samples are worth so much to the people able to make sense of them.
I think the curly may just be very capable of pulling N from solution. Without that plant in the system, other plants may get a greater share of what you put in. Plants will take from the tank, before their own stores. So this high N up top, yet dropping leaves, is in theory possible. Which would mean it has to go.
Those rapitest kits, look at n p and k separately. It's a very cheap and rough test method, but might answer what's happening with these curly leaves. Once the results are compared to other plants. $20 buys 10 tests of each. Enough to give comparative results. Then when the lab comes back to you, you can put some numbers to what the cheap test actually said. Allowing you to assess their usefulness going forward.

You think the White Truffle and Tom Ford are one's I should try? If one is 8 weeks, I could probably find it over here.

 

[Crooked8]

The reports will be interesting. I can hear myself back peddling as I look at them more and more. I can't accept that red is light intensity, when you are around 250w per meter. Not unless there is a problem with the lights. I'm still not quite grasping the science, but there has been suggestion that the red is sugars that didn't get used. P is important to move them about, and in other aspects of there use. Yet P isn't really reported as showing like this. The view up through some leaves, shows stripes likely from a metals issue. These stripes look a light colour, suggesting Mg. Mg being the other red stems relation. However, there is a little Ca showing also. It's a lot going on. If they were not curling I would of said more food. This is of course why tissue samples are worth so much to the people able to make sense of them.
I think the curly may just be very capable of pulling N from solution. Without that plant in the system, other plants may get a greater share of what you put in. Plants will take from the tank, before their own stores. So this high N up top, yet dropping leaves, is in theory possible. Which would mean it has to go.
Those rapitest kits, look at n p and k separately. It's a very cheap and rough test method, but might answer what's happening with these curly leaves. Once the results are compared to other plants. $20 buys 10 tests of each. Enough to give comparative results. Then when the lab comes back to you, you can put some numbers to what the cheap test actually said. Allowing you to assess their usefulness going forward.

You think the White Truffle and Tom Ford are one's I should try? If one is 8 weeks, I could probably find it over here.

Well the other reason i believe it to be light is because of the striping. Where there is a constant shadow up top, the stem is green. Like a green stripe within a reddish stem. Its also only some strains showing this and they are the ones that turn purple. But again, tests tell us more than our assumptions for sure.

The Tom Ford is our strain and she needs 9 weeks(i realize there is another one on the internet but its not ours). As for the white truffle if you can find a legit cut i would grab it. I run her to 9 weeks but shes fully ready by 8.

 

[Crooked8]

Lab manager said he thinks all of my values are solid. No advice. He said anything over or under is so negligible its not important. Said these were some of the best overall values hed seen in a while. Manganese is high, ill likely run a tray or two at a higher ph next run and test again. Glad the boron is lower. Confused about both though. Nitrogen is slightly high but still acceptable and nowhere near any toxic levels imo. Also, both the raskal and tom ford have more nitrogen in these samples than the truffle, yet truffle is the only one to claw downward at all, like its cousin truffle mintz which claws down the most. I truly believe its a genetic trait at this point. Might back down the overall feed a touch this next run but barely.

 

[Crooked8]

To those speculating about my feed, proof is in the pudding. I have shown all cards here. Dialing is still clearly possible, but i feel good about this.

 

[Dr.Dutch]

That doesn't look so good when you compare it with Bugbee's values and especially those of NCSU. Your calcium is much too high. Additionally, you have a overfertilization with three micronutrients.

In an effort to create a cohesive set of leaf tissue nutrient reference ranges for floral CBD varieties grown in North Carolina, 6,119 hemp plant tissue samples were collected from 76 North Carolina counties and submitted to the North Carolina Department of Agriculture & Consumer Services (NCDA&CS) Agronomic Division between 2017 and 2020. These samples were analyzed for N, P, K, Ca, Mg, S, Fe, Mn, Zn, Cu, and B. The >100 Cannabis sativa varieties included in this robust survey were grown for CBD production in both field and greenhouse systems. Reference ranges for each element were calculated using a quartiles approach on the population distribution of the sample set (Figure 1), and the recommended sufficiency range was the 50% of samples between the first (Q1; 25th percentile) and third (Q3; 75th percentile) quartiles.

Hemp Leaf Tissue Nutrient Ranges: Refinement of Reference Standards for Floral Hemp | NC State Extension Publications

As a newly legal crop, little information exists about optimum nutrient levels in hemp. This publication provides additional information on hemp leaf tissue nutrient ranges from a survey conducted between 2017 and 2020.

content.ces.ncsu.edu

If my values deviate from that, I would be concerned. And that is the case with you multiple times.

 

[Crooked8]

That doesn't look so good when you compare it with Bugbee's values and especially those of NCSU. Your calcium is much too high. Additionally, you have a overfertilization with three micronutrients.


View attachment 19017296

Hemp Leaf Tissue Nutrient Ranges: Refinement of Reference Standards for Floral Hemp | NC State Extension Publications

As a newly legal crop, little information exists about optimum nutrient levels in hemp. This publication provides additional information on hemp leaf tissue nutrient ranges from a survey conducted between 2017 and 2020.

content.ces.ncsu.edu

If my values deviate from that, I would be concerned. And that is the case with you multiple times.

We just hit our best yield of the highest quality last run. I at least know were headed in the right direction. Bugbee explained during the course that his ideal values deviate from others, he grows non drug type cannabis which is a huge factor. We cant just go by his numbers. He actually allows for a lot more manganese than i remembered which was my biggest concern and what i want to correct. Not worried about the ca as at week three we cut out supplementing it. Samples were taken at day 21 when we had just ramped up the ca. Bugbee also did a whole lesson about iron and how cannabis can take a lot of it, the lab instructor also told me the boron at an even higher level last run wasnt a big deal so i was glad to see that was lower. My ph never goes below 5.8 so its not an uptake issue for the micros. Perfection is hard to attain and this was a step in the right direction. Have you done any tissue testing? How do your numbers look? Thanks for the reality check but id rather not stick only to hemp values which both of your charts referenced are for. I do realize there is some work to do. Im thinking the micros accumulation is a root zone over saturation issue which is tough because when we dry back ec goes up. Trying to plan ahead for dry back feed increases is difficult especially without sensors in the slab. If you have gotten tissue test results and have any suggestions on how to correct anything here id love that. I do plan to lower our base slightly and the ca next run and try to dry back more in weeks 2-3. You mentioned hydro store nutes being our issue in an earlier comment. Bugbee uses an amended jacks formula, which you can buy at a hydro store. I cant suddenly become a chemist/nutrient producer and make our own feed. I run this 100+ plant room solo and i have 3 jobs other than this. Testing out front row ag next run on one tray. Ive had better luck with liquid nutrients than any powder so far but well try it and see how the tests stack up.

 

[weedemart]

one thing that seems obvious to me is that your feed lacks sodium and most likely chlorine due to the fact that you use reverse osmosis water and that your fertilizer does not provide all the essential minerals. You could mix back 10% tap water to fix this. sulfates are not listed either and they are essential.

it looks like overfertilisation for the leaf curl. Some strain doesnt tolerate high EC. dark green leaf and red branch often show with N toxicity as it compete with P uptake.

And micros are way more absorbed at low ph ( below 5.8 ) than high ph.
Its way better to aim for the entire range than a fix value.

 

[Crooked8]

one thing that seems obvious to me is that your feed lacks sodium and most likely chlorine due to the fact that you use reverse osmosis water and that your fertilizer does not provide all the essential minerals. You could mix back 10% tap water to fix this. sulfates are not listed either and they are essential.

it looks like overfertilisation for the leaf curl. Some strain doesnt tolerate high EC. dark green leaf and red stem often show with N toxicity as it compete with P uptake.

And micros are way more absorbed at low ph ( below 5.8 ) than high ph.
Its way better to aim for the entire range than a fix value.

I allow it to swing between 5.8-6.0. And the curl is genetic. It did it back when we were underfeeding them. I have photos of this. The 10% tap isnt a bad idea its just rough rough tap water. Well have to see next run. They overall look pretty happy. Its definitely a mix too. Lots of genetics. Some areas have higher ppfd than others. As for the red stems i showed back a few posts ago it is appearing to be high intensity related. As we move down the plants their stems are all green. Also many strains arent showing this at all. There is even green striping where the stems are in the shadow up top. Also, our K levels seem fine? Ill keep playing around until i find 12 things that can tolerate high feed and higher umol levels. Its a lot of fun tbh. Def feels weird hearing all these critics about my results when many folks never even see these figures. Everyone knows their ec, vpd, ph etc even in their media, but to know whats in the tissue matters most. Were gonna get there. I cant be upset with better yields and quality if that keeps happening each run. Improvement is all i can ask for. Ill spend 500$ now and again to do these tests. I feel its super worth it! You and I dont agree on everything but I do think you are smart and I could be more welcoming of your info on nutrition. I look forward to hearing from you more.