Why cannabis legalization vs. decriminilization is disasterous for the global economy

ureapwhatusow · May 3, 2009

MoeBudz^420 said:
Decrim does not do the same thing as legalization because under decrim it is still an offense. Decrim was planned here under Chretien until the USG/Walters put the kybosh on it, and I followed it with great interest.

I call it "the Great Almost" - but it did not allow cultivation, just posession of certain amounts (I forget how much it was, an oz maybe) and fines instead of court/jail/crim. record for minor cannabis offenses.

In a decrimed scenario, you might not go to jail for it, but society still says "no" to it...

Legalization means that society has finally accepted cannabis for what it is - the safest therapeutically active substance known to man. I am for whatever will give me that greenhouse without fear of arrest. Call it what you will, I call it legalization...

Peace

i disagreee

medical legalizatio is the most we wil see

leaving the rest of th eot subculture smoking illegaly and going to jail when they get caught

decrim is freedom fo everyone and if it remains a finable offense it will be les than the taxes they are proposing to charge on the weed

so CURRENT lega s decrim does not afford rights to the average smoker

BUT WHAT SHOULD I CARE I AM MEDICAL

well cause there are a whol eworld that cant afford the dr to persccrie them weed so if its just free so is the ewhoel woorld needs pot but doesnt have LIFE THREATNING illness to justify use

listen medical marijuna legalizaation would be best for me

I have an unlimited supply of other medicaal users i could grow for

it would be a win win foor me

but pot chagned me makes me think if everyone who is american not jsut the cancer ridden or chronic disease ridden person should be allowed to grow ansd adminsiter as they wish

and as like with the technology boom, anyone a 12 year old ot college drop out cn go anywhere in that industry casue the lack or requirements to be in it

that dymanic makes technolgy evolve swiftly and all segments of all markets can participate

this is why IT has had such a huge impact on global economy

lessen the people who can access marijuana lessen the value they add like innovation
egal marijuna benfits me directly derim does no t

but its american where ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL and thus so should thier rights

and on top of it the decrim laws were in place beforee calis legal props and was a frist measure of many

its easier to adjust a decrim law on thee books )reduce elimate fines ect) than to create new ones

but economicly which is th eroot of thiss dscussion

how does having a smaller market help boost pot grow to econommic proportions?

only if it gts sold illegaly to non med patients

ack to square one

sound like this whole place is so so so fucking bent caue they have to pay a price for freedom i.e. risk of prosecution

so insted invite those that perseccute into your home to monitor your compliance

there are legalization and derim laws aready in place so do not refence so laws in th works in some states because aa they haent passed and b i dont thin they wil

bottom line = legaliation = less freedom for more $$$ (taxess)

decrim = more freedom for more people and less $$$ (fines)

see if its decrim they cant jsut come into your house to inspect your shit so as log as you are a lil descreet your good

as fara as what everyone thinks

you think th bible belt will say obama says teh weed is legal lets puff its sanctioned by god

cigarettes ar legal but ther are mny who HATE smokers an dscriminate against them

so legaliation wont change anit-drug ppls minds agsit the drug but against thooes who legalize it

unless its for releif form horrible chronic disease

weed will be legaal like oxycoton, get caught with some oxy and no script and tell me how they treat you in court

you knwo i really think

i think most ppl who dont sufffer horrible medical conditions who are going pro legal mostly want to have their cake and eat it too

if it makes you feel so scared and uncomfortable growing against the law remember guilt comes from you not the world

so either you stop casue the detriment aint worth the benefit

or you can simply do like many people before do what you belive i your heart is right and and let your own cocnvction be your conscience

legalization is great if everyone can shave access and there aree safeguard against it the law changing or beeing modified

since they hae changed the constituion already i don tthink they can make that promise

I PRAY TO GOD I AM ABSOLUTELY WRONG

cause i hate being right in these instances but sure enough time will tell and ill be here to eat pie or say i told you so

ureapwhatusow · May 3, 2009

randude101 said:
The word for it would be, The Government just Leaving People Alone.

It will never happen. Government is the mob. They milk all the people under their rule for money and are power hungry on control they have.

yep and thats the reason i don twant legalization not cause teh concept but cause those who govern manipulate everything they can to their advantage

ureapwhatusow · May 3, 2009

and of topic economicaly

legalization wont keep non comliant ppl from jail

even if decrim is a fine, there is no jail involved

i liken it to a traffic ticket, only get em when you doing wrong and someone is watching

ureapwhatusow · May 3, 2009

Koroz said:
lol, and on top of it you gave me negative rep and call me a dick because I don't agree with you.

you are a class act guy! I won't return the favor I have control on my ability to lash out at people. /hug.

after a long refection oon my actions i shoud have relayed my feeings a lil different

tried to right it, not cause i think i was wrong i my thinking but definately in my actions

say i gotta spread more b4 i can hit you again

im so used to the hate form the opposition that i forget that when i have conflict here its easy to forget were on the same side only wiht differnt view

so after all is said and done i do agree wiht you on somehting

i shouldt of projected my frustration on you in that manner

sorry

Koroz · May 3, 2009

ureapwhatusow said:
and of topic economicaly

legalization wont keep non comliant ppl from jail

even if decrim is a fine, there is no jail involved

i liken it to a traffic ticket, only get em when you doing wrong and someone is watching

I am curious why you think legalization + taxation = Government control

But

Decriminalization + fines from the government for using = Not government control.

I think that is the major point where you and I are not understanding each other, to me, if I am going to have the choice between being taxed (If I SELL the plant), or being fined and looked down upon for smoking cannabis, with the constant between both being the government involved in my life, I would take legalization.

Burt · May 5, 2009

"I am curious why you think legalization + taxation = Government control"
there would be quality/safety controls placed on the merchandise, not to mention barcoded recall of batches-you may even have to purchase "authentic" clones and pay a labelling fee if it's organic/kosher etc...all of this requires huge bearecratic oversight-basically more government-not less!

Koroz · May 5, 2009

Burt said:
"I am curious why you think legalization + taxation = Government control"
there would be quality/safety controls placed on the merchandise, not to mention barcoded recall of batches-you may even have to purchase "authentic" clones and pay a labelling fee if it's organic/kosher etc...all of this requires huge bearecratic oversight-basically more government-not less!

you can't quote one sentence out of the whole paragraph. It was a Rhetorical question which if you read the whole paragraph would have made sense. I was asking him why he felt one form of governmental control Decriminalization+fines, is different, or in his view "not" governmental control compared to Legalization+Taxation.

I understand fully what legalization+Taxation would entail, I just don't understand why the OP feels Decriminalization means no governmental control when in fact it has been the exact opposite of that in any form we have seen it at least in the US.

Burt · May 6, 2009

no worries friend-i was just pointing out the ways in which big brother intend to get even bigger. no harm meant

Koroz · May 6, 2009

Burt said:
no worries friend-i was just pointing out the ways in which big brother intend to get even bigger. no harm meant

Gotcha. Just wanted to make sure since sometimes posts can be tricky sometimes to decipher =)

ureapwhatusow · May 7, 2009

Koroz said:
I am curious why you think legalization + taxation = Government control

But

Decriminalization + fines from the government for using = Not government control.

I think that is the major point where you and I are not understanding each other, to me, if I am going to have the choice between being taxed (If I SELL the plant), or being fined and looked down upon for smoking cannabis, with the constant between both being the government involved in my life, I would take legalization.

if it is legal, there will be a body of laws that dictate what can and cannot be done. Cannabis use will be determined by the government because we will have empowered them to do so

decriminilized means they cannot dictate use orr adminstration, only fine us for having to deal wiht something outside their jursidiction

Now I dont hae an issue wiht the government taxing something and using it to benefit society

I have an issue with the current government that has allowed corporations to destroy the american economy through greed and preditory business practice

gasoline cigarettes opiates

these are the products of government regulation

the bush administration murdered middles easterns for trillions of our dollars so hallibruton can get rich and let the corporations bleed us dry and then spend record profits ony to beg us for more tax money now cause they are broke THEY AINT BROKE THEY FUNNLED PROFITS OUTTA AMERICAN SOCIETY AND INTO PRIVATE OFFSHORE ENTITIES

we aint getting breaks on our mortgages but we shoudl bail out big business
who made more and got tax breaks

and we shoud do it by letting the government control the one resource that untaxed unregulated is keepign country alive

legalization gives uncle sam part of the profits to fuck misappropriate again

IF THE GOVERNMENT WANTS TO BALANCE THE BUDGET CUT THE FAT THAT FAILED TO DO ITS JOB THE LAST 3 ADMINISTRATIONS

Koroz · May 7, 2009

what do you think fines are?

Its another form of a tax. that was my point. There is no difference between decrim and legalization in the US. We either get taxed or we get fined. either way the money is leaving my hands and going to the state, one way I am not at risk of losing my house or children, and the other I am.

We will never see eye to eye on it I guess, because to me decriminalization does nothing but keep the plant in its current "evil" stigma. Under lets say the current legalization bill for California (only reference I have to go off, regardless if its only state wide and not federal) if I have ten plants I am legal. Under the Decriminalization laws in California currently, I would be cultivating for sale and be arrested.

One evil for another. You can wash it anyway you want but in the end one gives the people more freedom then the other. I am for freedom, even if it comes at the expense of paying taxes when I want to sell it.

ureapwhatusow · May 7, 2009

Koroz said:
what do you think fines are?

Its another form of a tax. that was my point.

no, you are wrong, tax is constant, tax is based on gross revenue.

fines are variables, based on the occurence of infractions.

The differential is revenue great.

Also big corporations cannot make a business plan behind a decrimed product which eliminates the possiblility of corporate influence

this keeps pot in the economic free market opposed to one controlled by the government

im not trying to be disrespetful but your trying to compare apples and oranges i explained it several ways and several times its about how marijuana will effect the economy once it no longer is in a free market but a government controlled one

legalization vs decriminiliation IMO has a HUGE INFLUENCE and i can argue it form ANY ANGLE because ive done research and studies this for a long time

LEGALIZATION puts weed in a GOVERNED MARKET

DECRIMINILIZATION keeps weed in the FREE MARKET

TAXATION AND FINES ARE ANSULARY OF THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD

ITS THE EFFECT OF MARKET PLACEMENT ON THE GLOBAL ECONOMY

you are beating a dead horse my arguement has nothing to dod wiht the government getting revenue from the weed market than it does wiht a free hand in the market place and the c

There is no difference between decrim and legalization in the US.

really so maine and cali are th same there is no fact to this statement

We either get taxed or we get fined. either way the money is leaving my hands and going to the state, one way I am not at risk of losing my house or children, and the other I am.

A) using maine and california legalization and decrim laws this is false

your dont lose your house in maine for pot, under 100 plants is a class d misdemenour finale UP TO 1000

compare the arrest rate per capita AND then add the federal involvement in cali i will bet hard cash that maine has more and less reporcussions per capita than california

B) Since there is no federal legalilization or decrim law in effect this is a moot argument and has no relevance to the discussion at hand

want to be diametrically oppossed to me do it on topic in a relavent way

We will never see eye to eye on it I guess, because to me decriminalization does nothing but keep the plant in its current "evil" stigma.

wtf are talking about

legal is sanctioned by the government decrim means its not

many herbs at the health store are not evaluated by the fda or governed by the USA and their not evil so why woudl pot be evil

your putting to much personal slant on this even if its off topic

Under lets say the current legalization bill for California (only reference I have to go off, regardless if its only state wide and not federal) if I have ten plants I am legal. Under the Decriminalization laws in California currently, I would be cultivating for sale and be arrested.

well if ya read anyhting i wrote to you i told you all the laws and state i referenced were at norml.org

thansk however for lettimng me know that your whole argument is heady conjecture and you took no time to really understand any of it

One evil for another. You can wash it anyway you want but in the end one gives the people more freedom then the other. I am for freedom, even if it comes at the expense of paying taxes when I want to sell it.

Once again NOT ONCE HAVE YOU BEEN IN CONTEXT WITH THIS THREAD

BUT

using the maine (decrim) (or ny fo rthat matter) vs california (california) comparison i think date would prove otherwise

the feds are swarming cali busting ppl due to the leagalization movement

dont see that here its a civil liberty to have an once in ny 100$ fine and they get thrown out

IMO you dont understand the topic at hand and havent even made a relative statement thereof

so if you dont want to discuss the topic at hand great, if not go troll elsewhere

Not every one is willing to pay uncle sam to be thier pot pimp cause they cant live like our forefathers, pushing hte envelope of the law and putting fredom on the line fors basic liberties

to be honest, in a nut shell, sounds like yoiur fear of big brother got your mind scared shut

Koroz · May 7, 2009

well if ya read anyhting i wrote to you i told you all the laws and state i referenced were at norml.org

thansk however for lettimng me know that your whole argument is heady conjecture and you took no time to really understand any of it

NORML said:
Cultivation
Any amount (exception for patients or caregivers) felony 16 - 36 months none

California.

Felony arrests for drugs in California, the state has the right to auction your house and put your children in CPS. Please, tell me again how I am using conjecture?

CULTIVATION OF ANY AMOUNT IS A FELONY UNDER CURRENT LAWS UNLESS A CAREGIVER OR PATIENT.

--------------

Once again NOT ONCE HAVE YOU BEEN IN CONTEXT WITH THIS THREAD

Then go back and remove every single instance where you talk about anything other then the economy. You can't make posts about things that have nothing to do with your topic, then expect people to not respond to those points.
---------------------------------

B) Since there is no federal legalilization or decrim law in effect this is a moot argument and has no relevance to the discussion at hand

want to be diametrically oppossed to me do it on topic in a relavent way

Since there is no legalized Cannabis in the world, then any topic that argues your point in your mind is not relevant, because we can only use other situations as a base point for comparison. Why is it hard for you to understand that using a state wide legalization bill for a general "base" is acceptable when there is no federal "base" to go from?

Would you rather we made up numbers, and statistics and then present them to you as facts? How are you able to have a discussion about the repercussions of the global economy then if we are not allowed to use nation wide, or state wide situations as possible examples of what would happen on a greater scale? You can, its called using a smaller scale sample size for a greater hypothesis.

Its done all the time. you use an example of a smaller scale to "theorize" what would happen in a larger sample.

-------------------------------------

Also big corporations cannot make a business plan behind a decrimed product which eliminates the possiblility of corporate influence

this keeps pot in the economic free market opposed to one controlled by the government

As I pointed out already, the government DOES control the market because by keeping the legality of the plant under scrutiny they can influence the given market for that item. They did it with Alcohol prohibition in LA. The Mayor and Chief of Police were making millions of dollars a month by busting sellers outside their underground bars, while selling the alcohol to people at an increased rate inside their illegal bars. They were able to control the market by keeping the product illegal because they were the only ones who had access to a greater quantity.

The same thing happens with Cannabis. Sure there aren't large underground "cannabis" bars, but how do you think the majority of cocaine made it to East Los Angeles, and Crenshaw Blvd? You think Rick Ross flew down to Columbia, picked up a Key of Coke and flew it back to South Side LA?
----------------------

so if you dont want to discuss the topic at hand great, if not go troll elsewhere

Not every one is willing to pay uncle sam to be thier pot pimp cause they cant live like our forefathers, pushing hte envelope of the law and putting fredom on the line fors basic liberties

to be honest, in a nut shell, sounds like yoiur fear of big brother got your mind scared shut

The only person being nasty is you. I was trying to have a conversation with you about a topic that you can't seem to handle with out calling someone names, or making brash assumptions about. Maybe if you had the ability to actually articulate yourself in a clear manner, with out the need to lash out there could be a nice discussion to be had. But you don't want to do that, you want people to only agree with you and when they don't you neg rep them and start calling them names.

But I see now that is impossible with you. I would argue that the one who has the "mind scared shut" is the one unwilling to see another persons point of view with out enraging themselves into a frenzy.

CoughingWidow · May 8, 2009

In my opinion decriminalzation really only merits the legality of possessing, smoking, and growing MJ for personal use only. Decriminalization will never give rights to personal growers to sell their finished products for dollar and it shouldn't. A national decriminilzation will increase a demand for seed/clone suppliers. These shops would need legal rights to be able to operate without government interference. I don't see an issue because their not actually selling any final product. They sell the tools to start a legal personal grow. Of course, just like any other business, they must be taxed.

The medicinal production side of this issue will have to include some form of legalization rights and strict government regulations including the FDA. However, the national decriminalization gives patients the option to personally grow MJ.

The only other alternative is of course a complete legalization of MJ including recreational use and placed under both federal and statewide regulations and guidelines. Far from ever happening IMO.

My 2 cents

whodair · May 8, 2009

legalize hookers!

ureapwhatusow · May 8, 2009

Koroz said:
Felony arrests for drugs in California, the state has the right to auction your house and put your children in CPS. Please, tell me again how I am using conjecture?

CULTIVATION OF ANY AMOUNT IS A FELONY UNDER CURRENT LAWS UNLESS A CAREGIVER OR PATIENT.
--------------
and your point is ????

Then go back and remove every single instance where you talk about anything other then the economy. You can't make posts about things that have nothing to do with your topic, then expect people to not respond to those points.

we discussed the off topic thing your the only one lambasting the same points

Since there is no legalized Cannabis in the world, then any topic that argues your point in your mind is not relevant, because we can only use other situations as a base point for comparison. Why is it hard for you to understand that using a state wide legalization bill for a general "base" is acceptable when there is no federal "base" to go from?

its a discussion about federal economic strategy and its effect on the economy not about how legaliation at state level will help federal laws change

no correlation at all

Would you rather we made up numbers, and statistics and then present them to you as facts? How are you able to have a discussion about the repercussions of the global economy then if we are not allowed to use nation wide, or state wide situations as possible examples of what would happen on a greater scale? You can, its called using a smaller scale sample size for a greater hypothesis.
Its done all the time. you use an example of a smaller scale to "theorize" what would happen in a larger sample.

the point of the discussion is to know the pros and cons before a solution is proposed

As I pointed out already, the government DOES control the market because by keeping the legality of the plant under scrutiny they can influence the given market for that item. They did it with Alcohol prohibition in LA. The Mayor and Chief of Police were making millions of dollars a month by busting sellers outside their underground bars, while selling the alcohol to people at an increased rate inside their illegal bars. They were able to control the market by keeping the product illegal because they were the only ones who had access to a greater quantity.

The same thing happens with Cannabis. Sure there aren't large underground "cannabis" bars, but how do you think the majority of cocaine made it to East Los Angeles, and Crenshaw Blvd? You think Rick Ross flew down to Columbia, picked up a Key of Coke and flew it back to South Side LA?

i know you are bringing granular arguments about california into a thread about global economy without any correlation to the main discussion again and again because its bringing so much value thank you

The only person being nasty is you. I was trying to have a conversation with you about a topic that you can't seem to handle with out calling someone names, or making brash assumptions about. Maybe if you had the ability to actually articulate yourself in a clear manner, with out the need to lash out there could be a nice discussion to be had. But you don't want to do that, you want people to only agree with you and when they don't you neg rep them and start calling them names.

But I see now that is impossible with you. I would argue that the one who has the "mind scared shut" is the one unwilling to see another persons point of view with out enraging themselves into a frenzy.

not once did you discuss any conceptual or real examples of the paradigm of free market vs government influenced market, but ya felt it was right to fill 3 pages of off topic comments, which you said were my responcibility to keep on track

SO after 3 pages of continued off topic comments i think everytin gi said about your and your views are spot on

your not here to add a thrid dimension to the world we are shaping, your not here to add an alternate view about a topic that has economic reason to it

there is a difference between free market and governed market

the point about norml is per maine vs california is that the legalization of MJ in california has given the FEDS LEGAL MOTVATION to persecute growers

so even off topic there i think your arguement is not well thought out

DEA cant say we have 50 dispenseries where we know there is a federally illegal drug to scrutinize

Weird · Dec 2, 2015

spunion bump

shaggyballs · Aug 31, 2016

for a good thread

shaggyballs · Jan 31, 2017

Well how do things look now?

Weird · Jan 31, 2017

as predicted

- ureapwhatusow

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