Why cannabis legalization vs. decriminilization is disasterous for the global economy

[sunwukong]

REAP, I gotta admit, I really didn't read thru your original post that carefully, and after thinking about this for a awhile, I realize my arguement was poorly aimed at you. I get a little arguementative whenever I think someone is attacking the validity of marijuana decriminalization or legalization. After going back and re-reading it more carefully, your post is about the differences between the two and the effect it would have on the market place. NOT what I had originally thought it was, a post about how marijuana shouldn't be made available, because it would simply lead to the downfall of the global economy. Although I still stick by my statements, and that is what I truely believe, it had really no real bearing on the topic of this discussion, the effects of legalization versus decriminalization on the free market.

With all this talk nowadays to a possible end of these draconian marijuana laws has got me a little edgy. My arguement was neither here nor there. My bad.

 

[ureapwhatusow]

I do see your point and still have to disagree with your conclusion.
fair enough

I think the tax base would be much more limited than you think. Most home growers would have a very localized market, only the large scale green house operators and outdoor farmers would see the taxation/regulation.

heres where i feel you may have missed the evidence i presented

A) look into some proposed tax schedules, most every one in them big and small. The only way way the small grower will circumvent them is to stay in tthe black market, continue to break the law and suffer the consequences but share the market wiht larger entities that can afford to grow in mass and operate at a skewed profit

we have the same prosecution of growers, just not the ones the government says are ok. in your model we are to invite the government, which is influenced by big corporations and lobbies, to charge us to do what we already do except now they get some

think of it as a local person growing carrots and selling their surplus at a nearby farmers market. That food was not inspected by anyone but it is still "regulated" under state health guidelines.

i vehemently disagree. american health is underminded by processed food that is designed and marketed by big corporations for ever increasing turnover to feed margins, these companies continue to pollute the american public

ad to the eqaution the massive failures of our government in the oversight they have already like that of the banking automotive and mortgage industries

let me remind you this is the same government that led the greatest economic power into a complete downturn, sparking global recession.

Here is case in point of our govermnet taking out tax money and failing miserably

my feeling is that to balance the power of the government on the economy, we must not let them have control of every economic variable.

shifting pot from the black market to the controlled market, opposed to decriminilization which would leave it in the same position as the black market but we would no longer be casualties

Not that we will ever see pot for sale at farmers markets (legally) but more than likely it will be available at certain licensed establishments.

correct, goovernment approved establishments, this is the achilles heel the corporations will attack. Let me ask you, they dont approve now, but that does that stop you from smoking pot? no, they failed to protect you BUT
you want to let them take the reigns again cause prohabition was a great idea and they enforced it well


This will probably be up to the individual states to decide (a good thing imo) and how mj supplied to those establishments is inspected/taxed will also be determined locally. the closest concession woudl be federal decriminilization, state decrim WITH medical oversight provisions

once again a nightmare. smoking pot can be a death sentence if you need an organ transplant as an example. so imagine lving in compliance in one part the country and needing help elsewhere and not getting it caues its legal there

Despite regulation and taxation, the small scale grower will more than likely see no difference in their cash flow and profit margins. In fact they may even see an increase because of certain tax loopholes. I think only the mid to large scale grow-ops that supply much larger regions would fall under increased scrutiny as they should.

see, in california where teh model you desire is in effect, i hear of many people sitting on weed and selling it far less than was teh case a few years ago

and as far as scrutiny, if we once again use california as a model, med uses of all sizes are getting scrutinized by the state and harrased by the feds

There is a real danger in tainted buds causing people to get sick, and you also want some safeguards for the consumer.

WHAT, i would bet 10,000$ that there are more hospitalizations and deaths due to failure in government regulations in medicine (bad medicine tainted medicine basic failures in oversight) than there has ever been for tainted weed

let big corporations grow weed and your going to have chemicals in the weed like they add to cigerettes

chances are the big corporate guy will never meet you or have a reason to give a fuck about you, but the local farmer lives with you, raises their kids with you, they hae to live with you. far less likely they are going to fuck you your a real person to them not a demographic or target market



IMO I feel the benefits, both socially and economically, of legalizing MJ far outweigh any potential impact government regulation might impose. It's impossible and unrealistic to inspect every small scale grower, they can't do it now with billions and they (the feds/staties) know this.

well here i feel i stated a reasonable case that the above is not true and not comletley relative

this is not about social benefit its a thread about differentails in economic outlooks

as far as social benefits, ill be honest i dont think they are relative so i havent considered them. f you really think they have a bering id liek to know what it is

 

[ureapwhatusow]

REAP, I gotta admit, I really didn't read thru your original post that carefully, and after thinking about this for a awhile, I realize my arguement was poorly aimed at you. I get a little arguementative whenever I think someone is attacking the validity of marijuana decriminalization or legalization. After going back and re-reading it more carefully, your post is about the differences between the two and the effect it would have on the market place. NOT what I had originally thought it was, a post about how marijuana shouldn't be made available, because it would simply lead to the downfall of the global economy. Although I still stick by my statements, and that is what I truely believe, it had really no real bearing on the topic of this discussion, the effects of legalization versus decriminalization on the free market.

With all this talk nowadays to a possible end of these draconian marijuana laws has got me a little edgy. My arguement was neither here nor there. My bad.

Bro having to live in fear of persecution for being who we are, pot heads, tends to make us cynical

i want what we all want, and i think that to have that we need simply to remove the persecution without the regulation

does it mean we cant have a board that certifies pot is good for meidcal treatment and helps assure medical marijuana is being provided in a manner congruent with godo health

absolutely

do we need the governmetn to do it?

no

many boards oversee quality of trades and professions that are not manageed or owned by the governent

so its not as harsh as ppl may interpet, i actually believe a decriminilization model will make it more open to all levels of society, making it to be in my mind as free as possible in todays world

 

[ureapwhatusow]

Show me one single product in the nation that you're allowed to do this with.

A) Consultat Services. See as a consultant, im not obligated to charge or pay tax on my product , i.e. my sevices.

B) many products sold via the internet: I purposely used the technology analogy since during its inception it has enountered little encumbrence and has been on of the greatest driving forces in the economy since the industrial age

goods purchased via teh internet were not taxable at one time and most sales are still not

Why should cannabis be any different?

because in the current model ,the black market model, which is a free market model, cannabis is far more dynamic and i contend and made points over several post as to why

Certainly I support you in your desire for anyone to grow it themselves. AB 390 in CA allows that for anyone over the age of 21. (Here's hoping it gets passed)

The taxation part only comes into play for commercial operations. No big deal. There will be massive fields that will be sold and turned into products other than smokeable cannabis and a tax on it per ounce will quickly be deemed ridiculous.

i dont understand your saying that someone put up a bill allowing adutls to grow and your think that once its a law it wont change or get modified

do you have any idea how many times a tax bill gets modified once its in place

do research on gas and cigarette taxes, perhaps property taxes

but lets take it one further

were is the representation from teh taxation

ITS A WEED IT GROWS WITHOUT THIER HELP IN NATURE WHY YOU WANT TO MAKE THE GOVERNMENT THE POLAND SPRINGS OF WEED

I think you'll find that legalization is a much better recourse than decrim. Look at the laws in the states where it's been 'decriminalized' and you'll still see people suffering under the law.

im willing to bet there are more arrests per smoking adult in california than in maine

its also not total decriminilization just like califonias legalization is only medical
legalization

Legalize it, tax it and heal the nation.

here my feeling

i dont need legal, legal means they approve, this is beyond approval, its like air its a necessity of life and beyond our right to govern

i dont mind paying taxes but there is no fucking way im getting robbed

the gvernment has failed miserably taxing my tax money to protect me from the greed of inscrupulous bankers, mortgage brokers, investors and the such

big tabacco another great failure

and after they kill millions of americans and take are takes to pay the health costs

CIGARETTES ARE STILL LEGAL

the fucking government is corrupt dont you get it and we need some part of our economy outside the control of the government so they cant destroy it all

its like giving a crack head your debit card and passcode saying its cool he used to work at a bank

 

[groady-ho]

weed needs to be taken off the books as a illegal substance and listed as any other agricultural product..it should be something that i can grow next to my tomatoes without fear af persecution..just becuz it may become legal and a certain part of it controlled by the gov't and big business doesn't mean you have to but it from them..you can still grow it yourself like fruit,veggies or raise your own meat..
..it just doesn't matter if it's decriminalized or leagalized the gov't is always gonna have it's hand in it whether it through taxes on the big farms who will grow it for marlboro or through taxes for the products to grow i.e. nutes, soil, even magnifying glasses for all you trich heads..
it's laughable to think mj would cause a recession to the global markets.. the reason we are in this mess is bcuz of the lack of regulation..without regulation greed takes over as it is a fault of man..capatlism is a failing concept..man has proven that given the chance greed prevails..

 

[Hydro-Soil]

without regulation greed takes over as it is a fault of man..capatlism is a failing concept..man has proven that given the chance greed prevails..

I wouldn't say it's failed, actually. I'd say we've learned an awful lot in the last 200 years as to where the checks and balances need to be improved and expanded.

True, the current level of corruption in the U.S. might be so bad it needs a bloody fight to push the restart button, but that's hardly a valid reason for throwing out capitalism.

What's really needed is an in-depth study of exactly how the original checks and balances were corrupted and a re-write of the constitution and supporting legislature to match it. You have to remember that the original document was written 200 years ago in an era that was, slightly, less sophisticated and complex as it is today.

I'd say it's sort of like trying to power a bullet train with a wood burning engine. With all the 'improvements' and bastardizations of the original engine, it's still not going to be able to put out the kind of power you need.

By redesigning the engine and maintaining the original ability to run on train tracks and draw cars you now have the means to draw a bullet train the way it's needed.

Same for the constitution and current legislature. By re-writing them and keeping the theme of preserving human rights, a totally new and wickidder(tm) foundation for the country could be created.

The original framework was really a rough draft that did awesome. I would like to see the leading thinkers of our time do an overhaul, in my lifetime.

Here's pushing for it.

 

[ChronJohn]

I have read all the posts here and think I can add my .02 now.. it seems a very romantic idea to have a completely free cannabis market where people can sell, buy, and consume with absolutely no strings attached but that is not ideal. because there is still a black market (a large one at that). I realize that that is your very intention, to keep a substantial black market that remains independent of any government regulations and controls the problem is that, as people have pointed out, the current illegality does drive prices up so inadvertently (or purposefully?) the government does control the cost of cannabis to an extent. this is what i see as an ideal situation (im no market expert nor do i kno much about the commercial agriculture business but this is what i see in the utopia in my head): cannabis is both absorbed by big business for mass distribution, yet there still remains small mom and pop grow ops. Rather than compare the cannabis industry to tobacco like I keep seeing, I prefer the alcohol business. Microbrewing is the hottest new trend in the alcohol biz. Microbreweries are taking a bigger market share every year. The same can be with cannabis. Let noobs or casual tokers smoke their mass produced mid-grade marlboro greens. The real connoisseurs can buy from their local organic grower, who can either sell out of the back of his car like roadside fruit/vegetable stands you see in the country or sell his wares to a local licensed distributor. I can make lemonade and sell it at a lemonade stand, I can bake cookies and sell them at a bake sale, why not grow cannabis and sell it out of the back of my truck? There can be safeguards and laws in place which will make sure that if I sell cannabis that's laced or has shit in it (grit weed anybody?) then they can track it back to me using the cannabis' DNA and throw me in jail. The technology already exists. The buyer can point me out. It's not that hard. With this kind of system not only would you be able to pick up generic weed at the store but you could get the really high-grade shit from your bros without fear of arrest as well. And of course, we can all grow it ourselves tax free. What people said in previous posts, that taxation will really only kick in when commercial-level sales happen, could be true. There's so many levels and systems we could use, so many benchmarks we can make, so many tax systems but I prefer something like this: 100 plants or less you're good. Even if you decide to sell it all, you're good. It's up to you to claim the money on your taxes or not. If you don't and get away, great if not well.. IRS are dickheads so watch out. Anything over 100 plants requires a certain level license. Between 100 and 1000 plants is local producer. Between 1000 and 10,000 is regional producer. 10,000+ is commercial. Commercial is where Federal regulations should kick in, because odds are some of that product will cross state lines. The other two licenses only get checked out by state officials and held to state standards. These licenses cost money. Local and regional license holders only pay the state for their license. The commercial grower pays the Feds and the state. All license holders are required to put the average THC content on the packaging. Packaging should be standardized too so as to avoid damaging excess amounts of crystals, thus lowering the THC content. The licensed growers sell it to a vendor. No taxes paid yet. The only taxes that will be paid on this transaction are when the grower files his/her income taxes for their business. The other taxes paid are sales tax when the product finally reaches the consumer, and income tax that the vendor pays on the profits of their sale to the consumer. The other monies the govt gets are the license fees (to be determined): The grower's license fee they pay for their particular license and the vendor's license fee they pay for their seller's license. Like alcohol, hard to get easy to lose. I really wouldn't like to see age restrictions to be honest because kids are always gonna get it somehow and I hate seeing them locked up for stupid shit but better to make it harder for them to get than easier, and no legalization/decrim would fly without age restrictions (think of the children!). That said, age limit should be 18. Not 21. Whoever came up with 21 is a fucking dumbshit. We're all adults here, we can do whatever the fuck we want with our body. And we don't need a bunch of college kids losing their college funds or getting kicked out of school for bud. We already have that mess with alcohol, and schools hate it.
So in conclusion, I want a sort of hybrid of decrim and legalization. A way to let legit citizens sell their product without harassment but still keeping the criminal market out of it (if someone in your neighborhood sells pounds, why buy from a gangster or cartel who might shoot/rob you?). It's one less source of income for organized crime, and it will bring the prison population/drug war funding crashing down. It will allow police resources to focus on the hard drug dealers/producers instead, and will allow them to be much more efficient about catching the REAL bad guys, not a bunch of gardeners and florists. Ideally, I want to see the drug war end altogether, make all drugs legalized but that's a different discussion altogether. Hope my contribution here is useful. Peace out all.

P.S. AB 390 is way too restrictive, like super duper restrictive. I would read all the way through the bill if I were you to better understand it. I liked the idea, but when you actually read it, it's far from ideal and I've decided not to support it. I like the medical situation in cali better.

 

[blitted]

I already pay tax when i buy my seeds in person

 

[ben ttech]

its quite tragic...

the local free speech radio is quite progressive... and yet they get suckered by the ONLY group with a full time lobbiest working DC to promote REGULATION of growing...

this fucker started in on the benefits of regulation SUCH as " knowing what ADDITIVES are in your pot..."

he then went on to describe all cannaboids other than THC as additives...

"_

the host of the program...
was jumping out of his chair... gleefully suggesting that the TAXABLE INCOME from this would be FAR great than the even the lobbiests were imagining... simple on assumption that the TRUE scale of the underground enterprise...

was greater than the REGULATION hawks were daring to suggest...

forgetting of course that there isnt a PENNY to be made in honest taxes on pot... IF the cost of its production remains the sizable potion of its market price...

these idiots are advertising the end of gangs involved in marijuanna ALL the while their legal weed is selling for hundreds of dollars an ounce...

wonder who guards the door to keep this dolts from being questioned about how lucritive smuggling tobacco products is BECAUSE of over regulation...

and how big the BATF will have to swell...
in order to deal with the proliferation of FALSELY credentialed marijuanna products....

which REGULATION of growing would INSTANTLY create ANOTHER market for???

 

[10k]

wonder who guards the door to keep this dolts from being questioned about how lucritive smuggling tobacco products is BECAUSE of over regulation..

The same thought ran thru my mind just today. Being perturbed at how damn expensive cigarettes have become with the new baccy tax the taxers have cooked up, so I dug out my old tube style cig rolling machine and leftover box of empty tubes and headed down to the local discount tobacco shop to buy a bag of tobacco and start rolling my own again. I used to pay about $7.50 for an 8oz bag, which is enough to rool about a cartons worth of cigs... But DAYYUM they didnt have the 8oz bags, just the 16ouncers for...get this FORTY SEVEN bucks a bag. Holy crap the government has lost its friggin mind with the damn tobacco taxes !!! I ended up buying a little bag 1.5 oz for just under 7 bucks, which is enough for maybe two and a half packs of rolled cigs after I spend way too much time to roll em.

F'k at that rate, I might as well start growing my own damn tobacco or just quit altogether those damn tax nazis !

Man it's good to see you around Ben

 

[ureapwhatusow]

There ahve been some very thoughtful and intersting responses

i have more to say but not the proper time to do so without it being a mess

i think decrim weed legalize medical mariuana is a thought as a hybrin approach

conversely i think marijuana if decrimed would have a great effect on the economy because jsut cause pot is decrimed it doesnt mean growing and smoking supplies arent

so that market would aka explode grow stores on every corner a smoke shop in every 7-11 nutes co,panies could go public ect



more later when i can

 

[ureapwhatusow]

Now i meant to stir thought and open minds

I got great feedback and i like the alternate persepectives

I think legalization allows the government to control the pot market

till now by virtue of its black market status it exists in an illegal but uncontrolled free market

in this market pot is dynamic

it also, by virtue of its status injectss capital directly into the lower and middle class, not into hands of the upper 9% who control 90% of the countries assets

shift marijuana to a government controled market would shift the resources back into the hands of those who control majority of wealth and because of such wealth, do not put back the same relative proprotion of money they take form our economy (how much of madoffs money is outta thi scountry for example?)

keeping marijuana in the free market through decriminilization allows for the current market dynamic marijuna enjoys will remain constant

I personaly find it difficult to look throughout history and find most great non diversified empires ebb and wane and think the same appraoach will work in our day and age

einstien said true insanity is doint the same thing and expecting a different result


so we are to trust the same government again to regulate a commodity market without fail

please keep in mind america is great because it has and had untapped resources

farming made us great. since then what the stae of the american farmer? Is the hard working backbone of this country loving how the government has managed them?

this is one of the few resources that are keeping our country from going over the cliff and egalization puts this arket in control of the people who managed the frequency of the markets as we know it today

we cant avoid cycles in the market but we contribute to the frequency and in my mind unbridled greed of the government and big american corporations has created a great imbalance and we as americans need to take control back not give them some more

My basic summation is that we cant give any one person or group of persons control over every variable due to the variables of imperfection in human nature

 

[justalilrowdy]

Legalization all the way! Arent we so tired of hiding and staying in the shadows? Total legalization is where its at. Get the greed and criminal element out of the business with total legalization. When the big profits are gone only the true lovers of the herb will still be going and growing for love and not for profit.
www.goodkarmagrowers.com

 

[nephilthim]

just want to add that marijuana is ,looked at by some in goverment as potential tax revenue potentialy bringing about a more quasi legality for those that undergo goverment conditions;amount,tax,stamp,license,etc.
goverment only cares about goverment and how to maintain it's grip on power(money,laws)and to whatever ends it can achieve this purpose, taxing marijuana.
hypocrisy ? to feed goverment with any taxes from those that benefited from it's illegality in the past..just say no to bad goverment.besides the only decent thing about goverment is state propositions like 215,prop 36 an prop13. limiting the power of goverment! which is a good thing for those of you who lack a medical license and or living in a country where it's illegal.

 

[ureapwhatusow]

Legalization all the way! Arent we so tired of hiding and staying in the shadows? Total legalization is where its at. Get the greed and criminal element out of the business with total legalization. When the big profits are gone only the true lovers of the herb will still be going and growing for love and not for profit.
removed spam

legalization will make it a corporate commodity and a government controlled commidty and does not makeit elgal for anyone just just those the government deems appropriate


decriminilization makes it free for all

 

[dopeshow]

legalization will make it a corporate commodity and a government controlled commidty and does not makeit elgal for anyone just just those the government deems appropriate


decriminilization makes it free for all

for the love of god and all that is holy...

DECRIMINALIZATION MEANS CANNABIS GROWERS GO TO JAIL.

what kind of "cannabis lover" are you that you want your fellow canna-lovers to go to jail?? it's pathetic how long you've held onto this idea without even educating yourself on what DECRIMINALIZATION actually means

COPY AND PASTED DIRECTLY FROM NORML:
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decriminalization means no prison time or criminal record for first-time possession of a small amount for personal consumption. The conduct is treated like a minor traffic violation.

GUESS WHAT IT MEANS FOR POSSESSION OF A LARGE AMOUNT, OR CULTIVATION?!?!?!?!

seriously dude... if you want to start a thread and argue a point, make sure you have a clue what you're talking about.

you can make your economic argument all day long (which isn't even a good one, as pointed out by myself earlier and by many others in this thread) but it still doesn't change what you are advocating is SENDING CANNABIS GROWERS TO JAIL.

pathetic.

YOU SAID...

[/FONT]einstien said true insanity is doint the same thing and expecting a different result

cannabis has been decriminalized in a few states and countries already!!!! PEOPLE GO TO JAIL FOR CANNABIS IN THESE STATES AND COUNTRIES. Why would you decriminalize it Federally, when we have seen what happens with decriminalization?! YOU SMOKE A DOOBIE, YOU GET A TICKET. YOU GROW A QUARTER POUND, YOU GO TO JAIL!!!!! THAT IS DECRIMINALIZATION

screw the market dynamic no argument for economics justifies prison time for cannabis and i really wish you'd stop spouting this garbage
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[/FONT]

 

[justalilrowdy]

then it wouldnt be legalization.. I guess its what your definition of "legal" is.
Legal to me means we can grow and have legal outlets for our product and we wont be arrested for possession ect..
I simply dont agree with the greediness of keeping it illegal any longer.
That's what keeps the criminal element alive in the industry. Let the huge profit go from it and we would all benefit.

 

[Koroz]

legalization will make it a corporate commodity and a government controlled commidty and does not makeit elgal for anyone just just those the government deems appropriate


decriminilization makes it free for all

Not true at all.

AB390 Legalization bill in California would have allowed people to grow their own for non sale if it was under 10 plants. No legal limits on amount, just plant count.

Alcohol legalization allows for people to make their own beer, yet it does not allow them to sell it. What I do agree with you is that the government would then open the door to regulate it in the same way they regulate the hard alcohol market, in the sense that certain states can regulate the THC content allowed in its market, but in the end I would still rather deal with that then deal with jail time, fines, or losing my kids.

 

[justalilrowdy]

Thank you and bravo.. my sentiments exactly you just communicated it so much better than I did.

 

[JackTheGrower]

if they could tax air they would

I'm sure someone is planning to sell us Air.

Jack