Root Aphids A Couple Of Alternatives For 100% Irradication...(DARK SIDE COCKTAIL)

sheik_yerbouti · Mar 9, 2013

Hey Eclipse,

So I found a store today that would sell me some Endeavor (synthetic Pyrethrin) and Orthene. Problem is they only would sell enough Orthene for 3 gallons and said that guys were having good success with foliar spraying.

Technically Acephate works very well as a spray as it is systemic but I can not find any information nor am I knowledgeable enough in plant botany to know for sure if it will systemically move into the roots thus killing the root aphids. Do you have any info on this subject whether it would work or not?

Also as I am about 4 weeks into flower I'm concerned about residual Acephate in the buds, the label for Orthene says don't spray for 14-21 days before harvesting (crop dependent) yet this stuff seems quite toxic so I'm concerned about using a systemic this far into flower. Do you have any info on this that would convince me either to use it or not this far into flower?

I'm confident the Endeavor will work as a soil drench, I would like to use Orthene in conjunction to really hammer these bastards but I want to be more informed before I go ahead with it.

EclipseFour20 · Mar 9, 2013

DO NOT SPRAY ORTHENE!!!!!!!!!
The routine I developed is for DUNKING (where the RAs reside). Spraying is for the leaf variety of aphids...which is not our target.

That said, look at the rate of Orthene you are getting and calculate the dosage to equal 3/4 lb per acre rate...which is equivalent to 3.4 grams/5ml based on 97.4% active ingredient. Example: If the percentage of Acephate is 48.7% (half of the granulated variety), then you will need 10ml (twice as much).

If you DO NOT SPRAY but dunk, there will be little to zero residual in your buds at harvest time...(that half life thing).

spook719 · Mar 9, 2013

If you wanna ever stop using all those chemicals and not worry about having poison in your buds try a 100% organic way... Guardian gnat nematodes with some lady bugs will go to town on the fuckers.. But you can't be spraying chemicals it will kill them. Spray the lady bugs with fresh water do they can drink and keep your soil moist especially the top or else the nematodes will die...

sheik_yerbouti · Mar 9, 2013

EclipseFour20 said:
DO NOT SPRAY ORTHENE!!!!!!!!!
The routine I developed is for DUNKING (where the RAs reside). Spraying is for the leaf variety of aphids...which is not our target.

That said, look at the rate of Orthene you are getting and calculate the dosage to equal 3/4 lb per acre rate...which is equivalent to 3.4 grams/5ml based on 97.4% active ingredient. Example: If the percentage of Acephate is 48.7% (half of the granulated variety), then you will need 10ml (twice as much).

If you DO NOT SPRAY but dunk, there will be little to zero residual in your buds at harvest time...(that half life thing).

I get that the Aphids live in the soil but they feed on the roots which are part of the plants vascular system. If the Acephate is absorbed into the plants via the leaves would it not be absorbed into the roots as well killing the Aphids as they feed on the roots? I only picked up 3 grams of Orthene so it won't be enough for any sort of dunking or drench.

Guess I'm wondering if the product is systemic is there really any difference between spraying and dunking. Obviously dunking is more of a surefire way but it will get absorbed into the roots and into the plant tissue no different than a spray no?

I may give it a shot as every source I can find it says it lasts for only 3 weeks. Whether that mean it's only effective for 3 weeks yet still has a residue that would be toxic or it means it's totally gone from the plant tissue after 3 weeks is unknown to me.

EclipseFour20 · Mar 9, 2013

Orthene is BOTH a systemic and contact; RAs are affected by the Orthene's contact abilities--in this particular instance, the systemic attributes of Orthene are meaningless for our purpose...we want the contact attributes.

The idea is NOT to load the plant with a systemic (like Bayer products), rather the objective is to get rid of the bastards NOW...once and for all....without having to conduct repeat applications. IMHO, each application of any pesticide reduces the ability to feed the soil/plant--hard to give the plant her dosage of ferts, if she is water logged cuz I had to do my "3rd applications of Botanigard/Bayer/Spectracide".

An expert from Cal Poly explained to me over several beers, pyrethrin products--real or synthetic may not always kill the target but immobilize them; a common side effect of pyrethrin is many critters will drop eggs at the first whiff of pyrethrin...resulting in stunned/dead adults but live babies (spider mites do this). By adding Orthene to the mix...I am adding additional MOA (mode of action) and what "what Orthene does not take care of--Riptide will".

The final problem with foliar spraying Orthene...is exactly that. If the plant has root aphids, then the leaves are probably showing signs of "phantom nute deficiencies" are not the healthiest; probably brittle with crispy edges. It may not be the smartest thing to further damage...already damaged leaves, with a pesticide; even a seaweed spray can cause further damage...if the leaf's stomatas are all closed.

At least those are my thoughts...after my 4th glass of wine

EclipseFour20 · Mar 9, 2013

spook719 said:
If you wanna ever stop using all those chemicals and not worry about having poison in your buds try a 100% organic way... Guardian gnat nematodes with some lady bugs will go to town on the fuckers.. But you can't be spraying chemicals it will kill them. Spray the lady bugs with fresh water do they can drink and keep your soil moist especially the top or else the nematodes will die...

Missed your post spook...I know the logic and rationale behind your suggestion should work, but RAs are a unique problem--that require unique solutions. I can always rebuild the microherd (even in flower mode)--but I can not rebuild a damaged plant. The objective of any responsible cannabis grower is growing the best plant...not growing the best microherd. No offense, just been there...done that, and hate to see others suffer the calamity of shit I had to go through!

Avinash.miles · Mar 9, 2013

what about using hydrogen peroxide (h2o2) ? thought i read somwhere on here that it worked against RA's

sheik_yerbouti · Mar 9, 2013

I'm not sure why you say that the systemic abilities of Othene are useless. Do the Aphids not feed on the roots? I'm guessing that this in a major reason why your combo punch of Riptide and Orthene works so well, any missed Aphids that feed on the roots over the next 2-3 weeks will die due to the systemic properties of Orthene.

Am I wrong?

http://www.organolawn.com/faqs/orthene_faq.html

These guys inject the soil around a tree to kill any leaf critters that feed on them. If it works to kills aphids and such that feed on leaves after a root treatment I don't see how it wouldn't work killing aphids that feed on the roots after a foliar treatment.

I get what your saying as spraying is obviously not the best treatment and a dunk would be 100% better but for my situation with only a small amount available I think it would still work and hopefully not damage the compromised leaf matter.

Just want to be as educated as possible before action.

EclipseFour20 · Mar 9, 2013

Sorry if I suggested the Orthene systemic properties are useless...I selected Orthene for its contact abilities & short half-life--not for its systemic abilities; another way of putting it--the systemic properties are a freebie.

Try a reduced quantity on the most infested plants and see what gives; as 2/3 amount is what we did just recently (similar reason--not enuf to go around for all plants to receive 100% dosage...so everyone got 2/3).

The assumption some people have...is that some RAs will survive my treatment (like they do with imidacloprid); problem is--that is has not been the case. Everyone I know that used this routine were content that no straggler RAs survived. Not saying I guarantee ZERO survivors, just saying, I am not aware of any occasion where my routine failed to achieve 100% annihilation of RAs.

I am aware of a few plants (weaklings) that did not survive the routine...and someone that tripled the dosage (he had zero issues), but I am not aware of anyone that had to do multiple applications of my routine to eradicate RAs...at least not back to back. Some had to do it again months later (probably contamination...cuz the infected plants were long harvested during his 2nd outbreak).

Now dude, time to put your thoughts in motion. Good luck!

Granger2 · Mar 9, 2013

Orthene is probably the worst smelling insecticide I've ever encountered. And it persists. Seems that spraying it in a grow room would be nothing short of awful. Just saying...

Eclipse,
As a committed organic grower, I'm not considering using your soup at this time. I'm not ruling out that at some time in the future, I may be open, out of long term frustration, to using it when I have only mothers in the room. Get the room purged, and accept a minute amount in the tiny cuttings that will continue to degrade and be "diluted" as the plant grows to maturity. This would be in the hopes of a "once and for all" solution.

I can tell you that, after dealing with Root mofo Aphids for 3 years, I am skeptical about ever getting rid of them completely, once and for all.

I would like to know how long it has been since you used your Orthene/Riptide mix that you have not seen RA's or evidence of them? Keep up the fight. Thanks. -granger

Bueno Time · Mar 9, 2013

I grow 100% organic and a couple runs ago I got root aphids from some clones I got didnt take them long to take over both veg and flower areas.

I really didnt want to use any chemicals or systemics but I had to resort to cutting most plants down and watered the two mothers I kept with the Bayer Citrus (Imid) at 5mL per quart and gave a half quart to each plant since they were in small grow bags it was enough to saturate the root zone.

Never saw another RA after that. I did just in case water with Spectracide Triazicide once about a week after the Bayer application.

Then I vegged the treated plants for a month or a hair more and flowered for 2 months. I dont think there was much if any systemic left at harvest doing it this way.

I havent had any RAs since that attack and treating with the chems and doing a GOOD cleanup of the whole grow area.

Good luck to anyone dealing with these hell spawn.

BTW I also did water with some compost teas, beneficial bacteria/fungi, and molasses a few times to rebuild a healthy rootzone and rebuild the microherd post nuking them with the chemicals.

EclipseFour20 · Mar 9, 2013

Granger, I feel your pain. Sometimes one has to use their brain and decide if it is MORE IMPORTANT to remain principled, 100% organic and continue to spend countless hours fighting a the insanity game of doing the same thing over and over--and expecting that one day all the Root Aphids are gone....or do something against your "principles" to eliminate the problem.

I decided my goal is to grow the best cannabis I can...by following organic/biodynamic principles. As a professional I use 100% of my education, experience and available resources to conquer my client's problem. After I tried every orthodox and kookie organic method/technique to rid myself of RAs...none worked, I decided to "hire myself" and discovered the best answer was "non-organic". So....do I fight 10-30 hours a month/quarter fighting the fuckers so I can maintain my allegiance to 100% organic--or do break the rules to rid myself of this pestilence of Root Aphids?

As a consultant, 9 out 10 times--the solutions I provide to my clients are not the "best of the best"...rather, the only alternatives available are all bad--and we must select the "best of the worst".

I think the last time I saw a Root Aphid in my environment was about 2 years ago. It resulted in me doing an all nighter dunking everyone, starting with the oldest down to the lil babies.

Hope this helps.

sheik_yerbouti · Mar 10, 2013

So I went ahead and did a good drench with Endeavor and sprayed with Orthene, we'll see how it goes.

Just wanted to say thankyou Eclipse, your time spent here educating me and others has been absolutely invaluable. Without you I would probably be poisoning myself and plant with an imid product while having them build up a tolerance. My Orthene is in the mail for future proper dunking and will be trying to find a good source of Riptide.

Thankyou for saving my grow. I wish I could + rep you more but I can't

hydrodreams · Mar 11, 2013

Hey Eclipse

I am asking for your personal advice if you were in my Situation:

-I have 7 beds of soil (1x1m), the soil in the beds is about 20cm high

-I have the micro root aphids (none of the big ones like other growers)

-When I harvested 2 weeks ago, I just cut the stem above the soil, so 1 inch of the stem is still there, so is the roots (didnt touch them)

-I Treated the beds with an overdose of Imid 1 week ago, a second time yesterday (Overdose because there are no whole plants anymore, so nothing can be affected)

- I went to my room today, I saw one flyer and one white micro in the soil, so I was really disapointed

So I ask you eclipse:

- What would you do in my situation, since beds are nearly impossible to drench?

- I never hear you talking about met52, why is that?

I have 10 days. The new clones are ready and must be planted in 10 days.

Thanks for any help

Hydrodreams

EclipseFour20 · Mar 11, 2013

hydrodreams said:
Hey Eclipse

I am asking for your personal advice if you were in my Situation:

-I have 7 beds of soil (1x1m), the soil in the beds is about 20cm high

-I have the micro root aphids (none of the big ones like other growers)

-When I harvested 2 weeks ago, I just cut the stem above the soil, so 1 inch of the stem is still there, so is the roots (didnt touch them)

-I Treated the beds with an overdose of Imid 1 week ago, a second time yesterday (Overdose because there are no whole plants anymore, so nothing can be affected)

- I went to my room today, I saw one flyer and one white micro in the soil, so I was really disapointed

So I ask you eclipse:

- What would you do in my situation, since beds are nearly impossible to drench?

- I never hear you talking about met52, why is that?

I have 10 days. The new clones are ready and must be planted in 10 days.

Thanks for any help

Hydrodreams

Quick answer...never tried Met52 because of availability--and since my goal was to acquire a "knock-down" treatment, Met52 did not meet that criterion.

I have no experience in treating "used soil"; for me--using "fresh new medium" has always been the better option. I mix my custom medium and with majority the ingredients priced at or less than $4 per cubic foot--accordingly the cost per plant, including fertility, is less than $10 for each 5 gallon container.

Logic: Why spend time and money making a "stew" of undesirable things--when I can start fresh and clean for each grow. Besides, stews are not good for the microherd!

Hope this helps.

hydrodreams · Mar 11, 2013

Ok...

So you are using new soil for every run. And once you placed the new soil in the pods you drench it with orthene and riptide?

EclipseFour20 · Mar 11, 2013

hydrodreams said:
Ok...

So you are using new soil for every run. And once you placed the new soil in the pods you drench it with orthene and riptide?

Yep..., but only if you have Root Aphids. As stated in my earlier posts, Acephate (active ingredient in Orthene) is broken down via microbial activity and possesses an extremely short half-life, making it my "best selection...of bad alternatives". Since there is a 100% knockdown, no repeat applications are necessary, at least that has been the my experience, as well of others.

hydrodreams · Mar 11, 2013

EclipseFour20 said:
Yep..., but only if you have Root Aphids. As stated in my earlier posts, Acephate (active ingredient in Orthene) is broken down via microbial activity and possesses an extremely short half-life, making it my "best selection...of bad alternatives". Since there is a 100% knockdown, no repeat applications are necessary, at least that has been the my experience, as well of others.

I believe you that it worked for you and also others. But I just imagine that there can always be one or x of the aphids somewhere hidden in your room while drenching and once you are finished with the drench the hiding aphid(s) will go back to the medium...Thats the weak point I imagine when reading your method...

EclipseFour20 · Mar 11, 2013

hydrodreams said:
I believe you that it worked for you and also others. But I just imagine that there can always be one or x of the aphids somewhere hidden in your room while drenching and once you are finished with the drench the hiding aphid(s) will go back to the medium...Thats the weak point I imagine when reading your method...

Exactly...but that is the weak point of all methods...sloppy work and letting a few slip by will undo hours of work and $$$. Hence my grow operation is almost like a "clean room"...save the hair net and booties.

hydrodreams · Mar 11, 2013

One last question please:

Since its near impossible for me to drench my beds (logistically), I want to ask you if you believe that a heavy flush with orthene and riptide would also work?

Hydrodreams

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