Treated waterfarm 8 pack hydro with Imidacloprid, 2/8 plants now drooping-almost dead

Hi All,

Two of my plants are nearing death after a treatment with Imidacloprid to take care of root aphids; the two largest of my 8 plants in my waterfarm 8 pack hydro are now extremely droopy, to the point of dying (I don't know if they are already dead).

I will summarize the details at the end and include pictures (before/ after).

For details please read below. Please help me figure out how this happened and if I can fix my plants, any help will be greatly appreciated!

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I am fairly new to hydro, I only have one other small hydro grow under my belt in an 8 pack Drip/DWC Waterfarm and luckily during that grow I did not get a case of root aphids, just fungus gnats which I took care of with gnatrol. All of those plants were pretty healthy and did not exhibit any serious problems, so I know it has to be related to this treatment I did. (The Jack Herrer I'm now having trouble with is cloned from the previous hydro grow)

After doing research , I came across user spleebale's post where he states: "I HIGHLY recommend Bayer Total Insect Control at 30-45 mL/gal (equiv to 15-22 mL/gal T&S). At this dose it seems to immediately kill any aphids that cannot quickly fly away.Bayer tree & shrub dosage between 1-5 tsp / gal (4 tsp for heavy dosage, 1 tsp recommended)". I couldn't find any product named "Total Insect Control", and "Bayer Advanced Complete Insect Killer" had the same ingredients as spleebale described, so I purchased it and assumed it is the same ingredient as spleebale discusses "complete insect killer" in other posts.

I had discovered root aphids in one of my "The White" clones when I was adjusting the height of my airstones in the buckets, and came on ICMag to look up a solution to this problem. The root aphids were quite numerous but seemed to be confined to only one plant, the back left one - I could not find a root aphid in any of the other rootballs.

I decided to drain the entire waterfarm system after the root aphid infection and treat solely with Imidacloprid mixed with RO water and hygrozyme (to clean out the dead bugs & roots) for a day or two, then flush, then feed a lower dose of Imidacloprid mixed in with the regular nute solution.

So, I drained the system, then mixed up a 12 gallon batch of water with Bayer Complete Insect Killer (with Imidacloprid @ .72% and B-Cyfluthrin @ .36%) at 40 mL/gal, so 12*40 = 480 milliliters. I also put in 10 mL/gal of hygrozyme, 120ml and then pH adjusted to 6.0.

The nutrient solution was quite thick, and I stirred it up and it smelled pretty potent. I tested it with an EC meter and it was still at 0 PPM. I then put it into my reservoirs and flooded the waterfarm buckets with the solution, and turned on the drip rings.

When I turned on the airstones in the bucket, the solution bubbled up so much it was like a bubble bath. In the infected plant, I saw tons of dead aphids floating to the surface, so I know the Imid worked and killed them on contact. I had to leave the airstones off because too much of the solution leaked out, I just left the drip rings on. A few of the aphid bastards somehow managed to escape and were crawling away and I crushed them with my finger.

I left the Imid solution running for roughly 22 hours and stopped it early because the two Jack Herrers were starting to get really really droopy, but the rest of the plants didn't look as bad. After this, I flushed it with flora kleen and RO water @ 6.0 pH, 0 PPM. The two JH plants still have continued to get worse and I fear they may die very soon.

These two were the biggest Jack Herrer I had, the other plants in there seem like they are doing much better than these two Jack Herrers, including the "The White" that I discovered with a case of Root Aphids.

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Treatment:

I mixed RO water with 40 ml/gal Bayer complete insect killer (with Imidacloprid @ .72% and B-Cyfluthrin @ .36%), 10 ml/gallon Hygrozyme, pH adjusted.

PH: 6.0
PPM: 0

Temps: 80-86
Water Temps: 70-75

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I have included pictures with this post from before the Imid treatment, the Imid bubbling up with airstones, and now the droopy plants.

Please help me:
- Figure out how to save these plants if possible
- Why this happened, and how to prevent it again (I plan on treating new clones I get from dispenseries with imid to protect against root aphids)

Thank you so much for any help you can give!

-Bud Bundy

Also, I forgot to mention that even now that I have flushed each individual pot with water in the tub plus mixed up the RO water with flora kleen that with the airstones on the pots still bubble up and over the sides a bit, not nearly as much as when the imid was in it though.

I guess the little bit of Bayer that was still remaining is what is still causing the bubbling like in the second picture I attached in my first post.

Everything I've read says to use it at 1-5ml gallon (not teaspoon) max. That includes the label on the bottle. 40ml/gallon!!!!! Shit, no wonder you killed them. And your plants.

Thanks for the response BlindDate -

Yeah, I thought the same thing, that was an outrageously high dosage - however, I have seen posts from multiple people saying that this is what they did for them, and it worked.

Here's another post confirming the following that I tried:

What appears to work is: One big dose (ie: my 50ml/gal); let it run for a couple days to knock out the current adults.
Drain the sys and flush for another couple days.
THEN: Add a much smaller amount to the sys along with your nutes to knock out any remaining youngsters that haven't reached full adult stage.

Click to expand...

Another thing that is puzzling me is how some of the plants are still living and look OK, while the bigger Jack Herrers are dying and super droopy...I don't get why that is happening

My thought is that Imid (or some other chemical/pesticide in the Bayer Complete) also kills your root zone beneficial bacteria and fungi. I had a similar thing happen by applying Malathion and Imid....it wiped out all my good micro-organisms which allowed bad pathogens (from fresh tap water) to take hold soon after. I nearly killed my entire crop! The bubbling/foaming you describe is what happens when your system and water is being sterilized.

I bet your Jack is having root rot issues now because your root zone protecting organisms were killed and your water temps are too high. Can you pull it and take a look at the roots? Don't be surprised if the other plants start to look sick too as the pythium spreads.

I just gonna come out and say it now,

SPEEBALE'S Imidacloprid recommendation is dangerous and irresponsible.

Pyganic II (5% Pyrethrum) works, bottom line. I got rid of root aphids without using Imidacloprid. I used the Pyganic II and Azatrol - got rid of them. (Also used Diatomaceous Earth and Stickyfoot as controls)

ItsGrowTime said:

My thought is that Imid (or some other chemical/pesticide in the Bayer Complete) also kills your root zone beneficial bacteria and fungi. I had a similar thing happen by applying Malathion and Imid....it wiped out all my good micro-organisms which allowed bad pathogens (from fresh tap water) to take hold soon after. I nearly killed my entire crop! The bubbling/foaming you describe is what happens when your system and water is being sterilized.

I bet your Jack is having root rot issues now because your root zone protecting organisms were killed and your water temps are too high. Can you pull it and take a look at the roots? Don't be surprised if the other plants start to look sick too as the pythium spreads.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the help ItsGrowTime

Well, now all 4 of my Jacks now are pretty much dead. They all are exhibiting the same symptoms.

The 4 "The Whites" seem to still be hanging on, but at this point I'm going to start over with a new crop, already got 10 new clones: 5 Blue Dream x Banana OG, and 5 Super Silver Hazes.

The water temps were in the decent range, never getting to be over 75 degrees, between 68-74 normally. The root system and everything was perfectly fine until I tried to treat with Bayer Complete Insect Killer @ 40 ml/gal in my res - I'm starting to think now that was a recommendation for soil, and by applying that straight running in my recirculating res for a day my plants roots decided to stop drinking. The only reason I treated the plants in the first place is not because I noticed any problems on the surface, but when I inspected my back left "The White" I noticed Root Aphids on the roots, but they hadn't caused any noticeable damage on top at that point.

I think the bubbling and foaming was an inherent property of the Bayer Complete Insect Killer - like putting bubble bath solution in water and agitating it, it will foam up. Even after flushing the system once, my fresh batch of RO water is still bubbling from the little bit of Bayer left over from the really high dosage.

The roots weren't that bad upon inspecting them, it must have just been the plants ODing from treating too much at once, it just seems like they stopped drinking after that.

It could have also been the Beta Cyfluthrin in the Bayer Complete Insect Killer, not just the Imid that is part of the problem.

Norkali said:

I just gonna come out and say it now,

SPEEBALE'S Imidacloprid recommendation is dangerous and irresponsible.

Pyganic II (5% Pyrethrum) works, bottom line. I got rid of root aphids without using Imidacloprid. I used the Pyganic II and Azatrol - got rid of them. (Also used Diatomaceous Earth and Stickyfoot as controls)

Click to expand...

Thanks for the Input Norkali

I believe that recommendation for 40 ml/gal was for a soil application not necessarily for running in a hydroponic recirculating setup...either way it was a ridiculously high dosage, I just kind of paniced and saw that was the highest dosage anyone had attempted, but I wasn't aware whether or not that dosage was for soil or hydro, and I tried it anyways. Kind of stupid of me, but hey mistakes are how we learn

Next time I'll keep it at 5 ml/gal or below.

For my next batch, I think I'm going to I'm going to treat my new clone with a low dosage, 2-3 ml Bayer Tree and Shrub (imid @ 1.47%) by mixing it in with the nute solution at this low dosage and letting it run for 7 days before I drain.

Then, the week before I flower, treat one more time with Bayer T&S @ 5 ml/gal for 1 week in the res, this should protect it through 2/3 of the flowering cycle at least with leaving the least amount of systemic Imid residue in the plant I believe.

I think that the Imid is the systemic and the Cyfluthrin is the contact killer. I suppose using pure Imid would work fine, just take a little time to get into the plant. My guess is also that since some plants lived and others died the 40ml was probably borderline lethal. Still, I'm going to run the Bayer Complete at 5ml/gallon if my nematodes don't work.

BlindDate said:

I think that the Imid is the systemic and the Cyfluthrin is the contact killer. I suppose using pure Imid would work fine, just take a little time to get into the plant. My guess is also that since some plants lived and others died the 40ml was probably borderline lethal. Still, I'm going to run the Bayer Complete at 5ml/gallon if my nematodes don't work.

Click to expand...

Yeah, you are right BlindDate - Imid is the systemic and Cyfluthrin is the contact killer. I don't know if the high dose I used at 40 ml/gal if it was the Cyfluthrin, Imid, or combo of the two chemicals at that dosage was lethal to my plants. All I know is I'll NEVER give such a high dose like that again of anything!

Yesterday I cleaned out my entire grow room and hydroponic system yesterday with Physan 20, ran that through my res for an hour, flushed it twice with water, and planted new clones I just picked up on Friday. These new clones don't have any visible bugs on them, even with a microscope, so I believe treating them preventively with a low dose of Imid will prevent any infestation for at least the first couple of months.

For the brand new babies (4 Blue Dream x Banana OG, 4 SSH), I fed them 2 ml/gal Bayer Tree and Shrub (not the Complete Insect Killer) with their nutrient solution. They're looking perky and super happy so far!

I fed them:

2 ml/gal Bayer Tree and Shrub
2.5 ml/gal FLora gro
2.5 ml/gal FloraMicro
2.5 ml/gal flora bloom
12 ml/gal FloraBlend
5 ml/gal DiamondNectar
3 ml/gal CalMag

pH: 5.8
PPM: 750

Here's some pics attached at the bottom.

Thanks for all of the help!

-Bud Bundy

What the heck ya putting B-Cyfluthrin into your system for? Imid should be the ONLY ingredient in whatever you put in. I went to Home depot, 15 different products with imid in them and 5 were only imid. You are putting 10x the amount of chemicals (B-Cyfluthrin) I have never even heard of.........

Bud Bundy said:

For my next batch, I think I'm going to I'm going to treat my new clone with a low dosage, 2-3 ml Bayer Tree and Shrub (imid @ 1.47%) by mixing it in with the nute solution at this low dosage and letting it run for 7 days before I drain.

Then, the week before I flower, treat one more time with Bayer T&S @ 5 ml/gal for 1 week in the res, this should protect it through 2/3 of the flowering cycle at least with leaving the least amount of systemic Imid residue in the plant I believe.

Click to expand...

because Imid is systemic, you dont have to treat again before flower, it has a 90 day half life and will stay in the plant for the remainder of the life cycle. Also you want to run a flush, only use the water with Imid in it for about 3-6 hours max, and then flush with ph'ed water for at least 24 hours if you are doing a recirculating system or flood at least 6 times in 24 hours.

Imid will break down if you have used it late in flower(not the OP's case but just for the record)although I dont recommend it, but it will require a very long cure. You can also use imid fruit and veggie, its not as strong and better to use if you are pre-treating instead of battling an ongoing problem.

Wow...I actually just had the same thing happen to me yesterday... just a little different though.

I added 5ml of bayer tree and shrub to my system and everything was looking real good....But I think what got me was I allowed it to remain in there and on the 4th day... total wilt session.... I think maybe that the imid which is a chlorinated nicotine reacted with dm zone... or my dumb ass should have let it run for a day and then changed out the nutes... the roots are still starch white though and I think they might pull through. It was very depressing. They were also 7 day old clones....

Did I F myself or what?

just keep flushing with ph'ed water and if you want mix your nutes very very weak, like less than 1/4 strength. Also if you see roots start dying off, defoliate your plant, not completely but at least 25-50%, as the root base is not strong enough to support so much leaf.

bayer is the one of the most rat groups ever hit the pharma industry, I would NEVER buy any of there products, soil, pest control and so forth, but since you already used it and so forth, I just thought I would put my 2 cents in.

Organic is the way to go, chemicals should ALWAYS be used last resort!
what works for others may not work for you, but you used way more than you should have......

I hate to ask this as a follow up but do we think 5ml/gal bayer t&s is to much for young clones? Could it really have just snuck up on me like that and then wilt? I just have a hard time accepting thats it.... for the first couple days they were starting to take off. Then, limp.

sarek said:

What the heck ya putting B-Cyfluthrin into your system for? Imid should be the ONLY ingredient in whatever you put in. I went to Home depot, 15 different products with imid in them and 5 were only imid. You are putting 10x the amount of chemicals (B-Cyfluthrin) I have never even heard of.........

Click to expand...

Hey Sarek,

I put the B-Cyfluthrin in the system because it was part of the Complete Insect Killer that spleebale recommended, as it had a "contact killer" and I had a nasty infestation in one plant I wanted to take care of right away.

Although, to be fair, Bayer T&S which everyone is recommending has more than just Imid in it in the inactive ingredients...but nothing near as harsh as B-Cyfluthrin.

For my new batch, I put 2-2.5 ml/gallon Bayer T&S mixed with seedling level flora nutes at 2.5 ml/ gallon each, being 750 PPM when done. They seem to still be healthy at that dose as a preventative. I ran this dose for 4 days and started a RO flush today to prepare them for flowering.

cannagirl said:

because Imid is systemic, you dont have to treat again before flower, it has a 90 day half life and will stay in the plant for the remainder of the life cycle. Also you want to run a flush, only use the water with Imid in it for about 3-6 hours max, and then flush with ph'ed water for at least 24 hours if you are doing a recirculating system or flood at least 6 times in 24 hours.

Imid will break down if you have used it late in flower(not the OP's case but just for the record)although I dont recommend it, but it will require a very long cure. You can also use imid fruit and veggie, its not as strong and better to use if you are pre-treating instead of battling an ongoing problem.

Click to expand...

I decided to flower earlier, so I will not be running Imid again this cycle. It was already running in my res at 2 ml/gallon bayer T&S with my new batch, and I ran it for 4 days, with what seem to be no ill effects. I will post pictures of them in another post in a sec.

I am now starting a 24 hour RO flush as you suggested before I feed it nutes again.