Treated waterfarm 8 pack hydro with Imidacloprid, 2/8 plants now drooping-almost dead

[Bud Bundy]

Wow...I actually just had the same thing happen to me yesterday... just a little different though.

I added 5ml of bayer tree and shrub to my system and everything was looking real good....But I think what got me was I allowed it to remain in there and on the 4th day... total wilt session.... I think maybe that the imid which is a chlorinated nicotine reacted with dm zone... or my dumb ass should have let it run for a day and then changed out the nutes... the roots are still starch white though and I think they might pull through. It was very depressing. They were also 7 day old clones....

Did I F myself or what?

Damn!

Sad to hear...I wouldn't wish what happened to my plants on anyone.

At only 5 ml / gallon bayer tree and shrub, I'd be shocked to see it kill your plants in 4 days. I ran my dosage at 2-2.5 ml/gallon bayer T&S with my flora nutes in the recirculating waterfarm, and my plants seemed to survive just fine with it...I'll post pics in a sec of how they looked after 4 days of recirculating Imid treatment at 2 ml/gallon.

I'd recommend a flush I suppose, as I'm sure has been suggested already.

Perhaps your conjecture is right and the Bayer interacted with something such as DM Zone in your system. I am not familiar with DM Zone so do not know the logistics of that.

HooT, Did your clones have bugs, or did you just do the imid treatment as a preventative?

 

[Bud Bundy]

bayer is the one of the most rat groups ever hit the pharma industry, I would NEVER buy any of there products, soil, pest control and so forth, but since you already used it and so forth, I just thought I would put my 2 cents in.

Organic is the way to go, chemicals should ALWAYS be used last resort!
what works for others may not work for you, but you used way more than you should have......

Agreed - I will never mix anything at that high of dosage again in Hydro...

I have never used chemicals before, and I did extensive research on Imid before I decided to use it. The fact that most, if not nearly all of it will be gone within 60 days if used properly is the only reason I decided to use it - and I've never had root aphids before, so I want to prevent losing another crop to them.

I do now believe that I got an infected clone from the dispensary I picked it up from, I remember reading other people commenting about how they got root aphids from the dispensary. I had no root aphids with my first hydro grow!

 

[Bud Bundy]

I hate to ask this as a follow up but do we think 5ml/gal bayer t&s is to much for young clones? Could it really have just snuck up on me like that and then wilt? I just have a hard time accepting thats it.... for the first couple days they were starting to take off. Then, limp.

Man HooT, I'm not sure...

When I mixed up the bayer, it didn't change the PPM at all, so it doesn't seem like 5 ML/Gal would be too much...

What kind of setup do you have? Is it recirculating?

 

[Bud Bundy]

Bayer T&S 2.5 ml/gal log

Bayer T&S 2.5 ml/gal log

Here's my log if you're interested in what 2.5 ml Bayer T&S/gal water did for me in my setup.

Day 1 (6/4/10)
Pick up clones from dispensery, 5 Blue Dream x Banana OG, 5 SSH
Day 2 (6/5/10)

I cleaned out my entire grow room and hydroponic system yesterday with Physan 20, ran that through my res for an hour, flushed it twice with water, and planted new clones I just picked up on Friday. These new clones don't have any visible bugs on them, even with a microscope, so I believe treating them preventively with a low dose of Imid will prevent any infestation for at least the first couple of months.

For the brand new babies (4 Blue Dream x Banana OG, 4 SSH), I fed them 2 ml/gal Bayer Tree and Shrub (not the Complete Insect Killer) with their nutrient solution. They're looking perky and super happy so far!

I fed them:

2 ml/gal Bayer Tree and Shrub
2.5 ml/gal FLora gro
2.5 ml/gal FloraMicro
2.5 ml/gal flora bloom
12 ml/gal FloraBlend
5 ml/gal DiamondNectar
3 ml/gal CalMag

pH: 5.8
PPM: 750

Started lights out at 50% strength
Started drip timer out at 24/7, will hand water multiple times a day


Day 3 (6/6/10)

Hand watered waterfarms
Mixed up 5 gallons of 2 ml/gallon Bayer Tree & Shrub with RO water, pH adjusted to 5.8, added it to reservoir, this lowered PPM to ~600.
Mixed up 5 gallons of 5 ml/gallon Bayer Tree & Shrub, pH adjusted to ~6, fed it to 3 mother soil plants ( SLH, JH, Galaxy Dawg ). After feeding the soil plants, I poked and checked the soil, saw ONLY ONE black bug fly away, couldn't tell if it was a fungus gnat or aphid, but it looked like more like a fungus gnat from what I could see.
Decided to keep the mothers segregated from the hydro plants for about a week or so until I can be sure that the bugs are dead. Let the plants dry out from the 5 ml/gallon Bayer Tree & Shrub feeding, then feed the Bayer Complete Insect Killer to the soil plants before re-introducing into the hydro area.
Fed the extra 2 clones 5 ml/gallon Bayer Tree & Shrub mix
Turned on AirStones
Turned drip timers to 15 min on / 45 min off every hour the light is on
Adjusted lights to 75% strength
Day 5 (6/8/10)
Added 1 gal (5 ml/gallon + H20 mix) to res, plus 1 gal of RO water equaling out 2.5 ml/gal Bayer Tree and Shrub. This lowered PPM to 600, it was previously climbing slightly.
*Adjusted lights to 100% strength

Day 6 (6/9/10)
Decided to flower early without long veg time so the crop will be ready by Burning Man, which is in late august, 80 days away from today.
Vacuumed the nute solution with Imid out and started flush with RO water
Babies still look like they're in good health, new growth pointing up towards the sky, praising the lord!

I have day 6 pictures attached to this post.

 

[spleebale]

Wow, I haven't been watching my thread for a few days as it seemed everything was going smoothly for people since no one was posting... and now this!

I am sorry I have not read each of the responses, and I hope I have not missed something, I just don't have the time right now and I want to get a response out quickly.

THE REASON YOUR PLANTS ARE LIMP IS THAT YOU TURNED THE AIR STONES OFF!!!

Teh reason SOME look decent is that they do not have a huge mass of roots relying exclusively on the dissolved oxygen in the water to survive.

DWC RELIES ON CONSTANT AERATION TO SURVIVE. Imid (and most pesticides, particularly systemics) will CERTAINLY shock plants, however, any DWC where roots are growing down into the water will DIE OFF QUICKLY if you turn off the air pumps, ESPECIALLY for 22 HOURS!!!

This is just basic hydro info here, people.

I just gonna come out and say it now,

SPEEBALE'S Imidacloprid recommendation is dangerous and irresponsible.

Pyganic II (5% Pyrethrum) works, bottom line. I got rid of root aphids without using Imidacloprid. I used the Pyganic II and Azatrol - got rid of them. (Also used Diatomaceous Earth and Stickyfoot as controls)

Norkali: I am happy to hear you had an effective solution that did not involve imid. I (like so many others on my thread) had a TERRIBLE infestation on mature (just pre-flowering) plants in multiple systems. I had 8 different sets of plants (areas/regimens) each growing concurrently in different stages of life, ALL infected.

I used 50 mL/gal Bayer C.I.K. on ALL of these systems. Some were in pure Fox Farms O.F. soil, some in FFOF + coco, some in coco with perlite, some in rockwool mini-cubes in beer cups, some in hydroton, some in pure perlite alone, some in coco croutons. Some were clones, some were 8" tall, some were 2 feet tall, some were planted in beds, some were in a vertical garden etc etc. etc. I don't even want to mention how many plants we are talking about total. In every system it eradicated ALL the aphids. In no system did it kill any plants. In no system did it even seem to particularly stunt or adversely affect the plants.

Soooooo..... I know we all like to think we know what is going on, but I think you have jumped to conclusions with your claim. Where is your evidence? Is it this ONE grow of stressed plants in DWC where the airstone was turned off for 22 hours straight??? - ANY other support for your claim? My ladies beg to differ!

-WB

 

[spleebale]

Wow...I actually just had the same thing happen to me yesterday... just a little different though.

I added 5ml of bayer tree and shrub to my system and everything was looking real good....But I think what got me was I allowed it to remain in there and on the 4th day... total wilt session.... I think maybe that the imid which is a chlorinated nicotine reacted with dm zone... or my dumb ass should have let it run for a day and then changed out the nutes... the roots are still starch white though and I think they might pull through. It was very depressing. They were also 7 day old clones....

Did I F myself or what?

Also: as I mentioned, pesticides (particularly systemics) WILL SHOCK PLANTS. If they are healthy enough to be worth saving they will usually bounce right back (some people report them looking great immediately the next day as a result of relief from pests) - HOWEVER, I would NOT ever recommend running ANY pesticide for 4 days! That is just excessive! I would be much more cautious running any pesticide in hydro, too - since hydro watering typically soaks the whole root zone, you don't need to have chems in the system very long! I have not run imid in a re-circ system yet, but when I ran it in hydro drain-to-waste, I added it to the res (1/2 full to use less imid) and then ran the whole thing through until it was gone. I let the plants sit overnight with imid in roots and then changed out the res with fresh nutes the next day. This worked great in each of the systems I did it in at 40-50 mL/gal Bayer C.I.K. I would personally not run a re-circ system for more than 12 hours with imid in it, though. I feel a good rule of thumb for re-circ hydro systems is is 2-4 waterings (for those that water only 2-8 times a day) or 2-4 hours (in the case of constantly recirculating systems like aero, NFT, DWC, hydrofarm). When the light is on the plant will be absorbing the imid and the B-cyfluthrin does not need to keep contacting bugs over and over to kill them.

Again, I cannot say this ENOUGH: Keeping plants healthy is FAR MORE IMPORTANT than complete eradication of bugs! Do NOT go over-board! Do NOT compromise plant health (unplugging airstones or leaving chems in the res for 4 days) in favor of more potential bug-killing! This was the reason people were having so much trouble originally (soaking plants every other day, letting them soak for 10 minutes each time etc etc) - they were favoring bug eradication over plant health. DON'T DO IT! The whole point of the systemic is total control, but it requires patience and good practice; keep the roots toxic to bugs during veg and the bugs will almost all die off. Use a secondary control method and you will never see them again.

DO:
DO Use a high-dose of imid as early as possible, ideally the Bayer C.I.K. DO raise the lights a bit or even switch out with flouros temporarily if plants are seriously stressed and it is reasonably possible. DO keep temps lower - alternate turning off lights for an hour or so if the day is too hot. Use an evaporative (swamp) cooler for low-cost cooling. DO take care of plant health as best as possible without over-pampering or making too many abrupt changes.

Do NOT over-soak roots, do NOT constantly keep re-applying imid (whatever system/medium/watering type), do NOT water again before plants need it (so imid can soak in and so they are not over-saturated. Hydro systems still need to water as often as they need to water).

I would recommend only 10-20 mL/gal of the Bayer C.I.K. for most hydro systems, particularly any system where there will be a lot of contact between pesticide water and roots (DWC, hydrofarm, NFT, aero etc). In such systems I don't think more than 25 mL/gal C.I.K. is ever necessary, though it is always better to do a stronger dose earlier than multiple lower doses at intervals.

Also: I would be careful using straight RO water for pesticide root-application, particularly for any extended period of time; it should not kill plants, but they will be fighting to preserve their minerals and nutrients against the pull of osmosis, which I can imagine will only add more stress. I would put 1/4-1/10 strength nutes in with the imid and RO water - this is probably not as much an issue with non-RO , non-distilled water, but a little nutes doesn't hurt. I personally ran Bayer C.I.K along with mid-full strength nutes with no problems.

Hope I helped!

-WB

 

[spleebale]

because Imid is systemic, you dont have to treat again before flower,

Most people do not have this experience. Please do not believe the company sales-pitch over the experience of so many on my thread and on Scay_Beez thread before me. To me this is perfectly analogous to saying "since floramite/avid etc is translaminar, you don't have to use it again before flowering" - you don't WANT to use it again DURING flowering, so you need to make SURE to kill the hell out of them beforehand. This goes for root aphids perhaps many more times over because a much smaller population can do much more damage. In both cases you want to use as much as you need to BEFORE flowering in NO MORE than 3 applications - generally 2 should be sufficient. From there, in BOTH cases, you should STILL follow up with a secondary (non-systemic/translaminar) control method.

Also you want to run a flush, only use the water with Imid in it for about 3-6 hours max,

That's what I was saying! Funny, we ball-parked around the same area... seems like common sense I guess.

and then flush with ph'ed water for at least 24 hours if you are doing a recirculating system or flood at least 6 times in 24 hours.

I think this is overkill; it is important to flush non-hydro container/substrate systems that will retain the imid at some point, but only so it does not stay around too late in bloom. I did not flush right away because plants are sensitive from being attacked, from pathogens/root damage, pesticides, heavy watering/soaking etc and need a rest. If you are going to flush, I would wait until you see plants visibly happy/moving again. If you are in a hydro system, changing the res will get rid of most the imid (especially after a few changes) and a little bit lingering is no issue. Flushing is only a big concern if you are in bloom or about to be, otherwise I would water normally for the first few days afterward (giving container/substrate/non-hydro plants perhaps an extra day or two to dry out if they were heavily soaked).

Imid will break down if you have used it late in flower(not the OP's case but just for the record)although I dont recommend it, but it will require a very long cure.

This is misleading - imid breaks down VERY fast in our bodies, somewhat fast in live plant tissues, not very fast in most soils/substrates and very slowly in dried plant material. Flushing imid out of the substrate and going as long as possible/reasonable before harvest is the best way to ensure low levels of imid, as the plant will break it down (1/2 as much imid in the plant every 3-6 days WHEN it is flushed from the substrate). If imid remains in the substrate it will continue to be absorbed by the plant and will exist in the bud. If your bud is full of imid, it will remain full of imid for a long time; using a cigarette filter or other filter will help dramatically reduce how much imid gets through when you smoke it.

You can also use imid fruit and veggie, its not as strong and better to use if you are pre-treating instead of battling an ongoing problem.

Grrrrrrrr! I have mentioned this so many times now! Buy a bottle of Bayer Tree and Shrub... pour half of it into a gallon bottle, fill it all the way to the top with water... suddenly you have the rough equivalent of five bottles of Bayer Fruit, Citrus and Vegetable... and a whole half bottle of tree and shrub left... for the cost of ONE Fruit, Citrus and Vegetable bottle.

THERE IS NO REASON TO BUY THE MORE DILUTE IMID. YOU ARE JUST THROWING MORE OF THE CHEMICAL SOLVENT THAT THE IMID COMES DISSOLVED IN INTO YOUR ROOT ZONE FOR NO REASON.

Only buy the Fruit and Citrus if you really love Bayer and more than anything just want to give them your money.

-WB

 

[HooT]

Hey BUD BUNDY, I do run a flood table, so ya, recirculating. And I didn't have bugs, I was using it as a preventative.

They went from this

to this

Spleebale, thank you. That makes a lot of sense, four days might be a bit rediculous. But, they didn't show shock the first day, it was the fourth. So was it the stress of in constantly being in the system? And, could have the dm zone had a reaction with it?

 

[iSMOKE.KUSH]

they'll bounce back from that man. patience. they are just shocked. i had half my grow do the crazy rediculous droop thing after i used a pesticide. and than i over watered while they were shocked(big NO NO) and they all bounced back and are looking great.

 

[spleebale]

HooT: Four days is a lot - they will absorb more imid with each contact/exposure and they certainly don't LIKE the imid (many people report sudden outbreaks of various diseases which is often stress-related... I have seen the same thing). I am inclined still to think it was something besides just the imid, especially at the levels you used, but this is a good point of data.

DM Zone contains chloramines to the best of my knowledge; it should not be used with almost anything but hydroponic fertilizer, as chloramines are particularly reactive (will react with any organic-based substances, possibly enzymes too). Zone only works as a "keeping it clean" method, which I have mentioned do not tend to work well, especially long term (multiple cycles). I highly recommend Companion or even a few of the hydro beneficials packages over "keeping it clean." I think that a LITTLE bit of VooDoo Juice (you do not need as much as they call for), a little bit of Companion (.5-1 mL/gal), and about 1/2 strength Hygrozyme are the most effective solutions to hydroponic root-care. Good luck! Sorry about the loss!

-WB

 

[spleebale]

they'll bounce back from that man. patience. they are just shocked.

I think he is probably right - but at that size it is often best to just start over if reasonably possible (easy to get well-rooted clones or have others ready to go). It will take at least a week in most cases for them to regenerate health and often a major compromise of the plant's immunity invites disease/pests that you will then have to battle through the whole grow. I wish I could easily draw up a chart of how hurt a plant is vs how old/far in it is for being worth saving... Unfortunately it depends largely on the type of shock and the type of system and your own growing abilities; but in general, if plants are seriously shocked, have bad root damage or are not progressing forward, the younger they are the more seriously you should consider scrapping them.

i had half my grow do the crazy rediculous droop thing after i used a pesticide. and than i over watered while they were shocked(big NO NO) and they all bounced back and are looking great.

This is EXACTLY what I keep saying, thank you for providing more personal experience to back it up: DO NOT OVER-WATER! After the application of pesticides they need to dry out and breathe (particularly substrate-planted plants, particularly non-hydro). It is better to let the roots get air than to get more pesticides in, to flush the pesticides out, to feed the plants or to give them things to regenerate them (B-vitamins, enzymes, beneficials, compost teas) . These are all important but should only be given when the plant needs to drink again!

 

[spleebale]

PS: Fun fact, Bayer created a drug for pain a little over a hundred years ago that became very popular and still is today... Did you guess "Aspirin"? Well, you would be correct, but that came a few years later. The answer I was looking for is "Heroin" - trademark name by the Bayer company for diacetylmorphine, invented for pain relief and used for toothaches, labor pains etc and guzzled down in bottles by house-wives by the millions and given to their toothing infants to make them shut up (probably your grandparents). That's right, Heroin - look for it at your local druggist.

-WB

 

[spleebale]

How do I create a signature? Do I need a certain number of posts? Sorry to pollute. Thanks!

-WB

 

[Bud Bundy]

Wow, I haven't been watching my thread for a few days as it seemed everything was going smoothly for people since no one was posting... and now this!

I am sorry I have not read each of the responses, and I hope I have not missed something, I just don't have the time right now and I want to get a response out quickly.

THE REASON YOUR PLANTS ARE LIMP IS THAT YOU TURNED THE AIR STONES OFF!!!

Teh reason SOME look decent is that they do not have a huge mass of roots relying exclusively on the dissolved oxygen in the water to survive.

DWC RELIES ON CONSTANT AERATION TO SURVIVE. Imid (and most pesticides, particularly systemics) will CERTAINLY shock plants, however, any DWC where roots are growing down into the water will DIE OFF QUICKLY if you turn off the air pumps, ESPECIALLY for 22 HOURS!!!

This is just basic hydro info here, people.




Norkali: I am happy to hear you had an effective solution that did not involve imid. I (like so many others on my thread) had a TERRIBLE infestation on mature (just pre-flowering) plants in multiple systems. I had 8 different sets of plants (areas/regimens) each growing concurrently in different stages of life, ALL infected.

I used 50 mL/gal Bayer C.I.K. on ALL of these systems. Some were in pure Fox Farms O.F. soil, some in FFOF + coco, some in coco with perlite, some in rockwool mini-cubes in beer cups, some in hydroton, some in pure perlite alone, some in coco croutons. Some were clones, some were 8" tall, some were 2 feet tall, some were planted in beds, some were in a vertical garden etc etc. etc. I don't even want to mention how many plants we are talking about total. In every system it eradicated ALL the aphids. In no system did it kill any plants. In no system did it even seem to particularly stunt or adversely affect the plants.

Soooooo..... I know we all like to think we know what is going on, but I think you have jumped to conclusions with your claim. Where is your evidence? Is it this ONE grow of stressed plants in DWC where the airstone was turned off for 22 hours straight??? - ANY other support for your claim? My ladies beg to differ!

-WB

Spleebale -

I never made a claim or formed conclusions as to why the plants died, I just posted this up to figure out what was going on and to help other people in a similar situation. Please don't think I'm trying to assign blame at you or your advice; I'm trying to help contribute my experience in a recirculating hydro setup to the community so others can learn from it.

I did kill all of the bugs with the treatment which was good, I just ended up also killing my plants too because of my method of application in my recirc setup. I believe in a recirculating setup the approach needs to be slightly different than it would be in a drain to waste or soil system, and this is my mistake for treating it how I did. Live and learn, eh?

Not much research has been done on treating with Imid in a recirculating hydro setup, so I might as well be a case study


In response to your advice on the airstones:

The only reason I turned the airstones off is because the solution bubbled up too much to leave it on, the solution bubbled up and spilled all over the floor when they were left on — imagine putting a whole bottle of bubble bath in a jacuzzi. I have a pic of what it looked like in the first page of the thread.

To be honest, the AirStones in the WaterFarm grow buckets were only installed a week or so ago, long after the plants roots reached the bottom of the bucket and were happy, showing no problems, droopiness, or signs of stress.

The recirculating Waterfarms actually don't need the airstones in the bucket for aeration, Waterfarms run a drip system with a 24/7 timer which constantly aerates the solution, plus I also have airstones in the res and a recirculating pump which moves solution from bucket to bucket which also aerates the system (and I left the recirc pump on). The airstones in the Waterfarm are a mod, and they can be helpful but I have grown sucessfully in the waterfarm recirculating setup one grow without using any air stones (many people don't ever run airstones and have great harvests), the system is built to not need it, it's just icing on the cake - the drip pump definately aerates the water enough for a successful grow (which I DID leave the drip pump and recirc pump on the entire time during the Imid treatment, so the roots definitely were getting oxygen).





Spleebale, in your hydro setup that you treated at that dosage, it was not recirculating, correct? I think my failed experiment is because I used the 40 ml Complete Insect Killer per gal of RO water dosage in a recirc setup and I treated with the solution for too long @ that dosage (it could have also been the B-cyfluthrin instead of the Imid the plants didn't like @ that dosage).

When inoculated my new clones for 4 days Bayer T&S @ 2-2.5 ml/gallon with the nutes, they did ALOT better with that treatment, and the plants don't look nearly as droopy as HooTs (which I'm thinking possibly is the DM Zone reaction w/ Imid that is killing his plants). When I went to the hydro store and spoke with a knowledgeable guy who works there, he recommended I run it for a week at 1-2 ml/gallon w/ nutes so the plants have time to uptake it completely. When I read HooTs reaction (which was my Day 4 of Bayer Treatment), I decided to immediately stop Imid treatment and flush with RO water for a day; so, I'm not sure what the optimal duration for treating w/ Imid is.

I'll post some pics up of my clones after the 4 day Bayer Treatment shortly.

Thanks,

Bud Bundy

 

[Bud Bundy]

Also: as I mentioned, pesticides (particularly systemics) WILL SHOCK PLANTS. If they are healthy enough to be worth saving they will usually bounce right back (some people report them looking great immediately the next day as a result of relief from pests) - HOWEVER, I would NOT ever recommend running ANY pesticide for 4 days! That is just excessive! I would be much more cautious running any pesticide in hydro, too - since hydro watering typically soaks the whole root zone, you don't need to have chems in the system very long! I have not run imid in a re-circ system yet, but when I ran it in hydro drain-to-waste, I added it to the res (1/2 full to use less imid) and then ran the whole thing through until it was gone. I let the plants sit overnight with imid in roots and then changed out the res with fresh nutes the next day. This worked great in each of the systems I did it in at 40-50 mL/gal Bayer C.I.K. I would personally not run a re-circ system for more than 12 hours with imid in it, though. I feel a good rule of thumb for re-circ hydro systems is is 2-4 waterings (for those that water only 2-8 times a day) or 2-4 hours (in the case of constantly recirculating systems like aero, NFT, DWC, hydrofarm). When the light is on the plant will be absorbing the imid and the B-cyfluthrin does not need to keep contacting bugs over and over to kill them.

Again, I cannot say this ENOUGH: Keeping plants healthy is FAR MORE IMPORTANT than complete eradication of bugs! Do NOT go over-board! Do NOT compromise plant health (unplugging airstones or leaving chems in the res for 4 days) in favor of more potential bug-killing! This was the reason people were having so much trouble originally (soaking plants every other day, letting them soak for 10 minutes each time etc etc) - they were favoring bug eradication over plant health. DON'T DO IT! The whole point of the systemic is total control, but it requires patience and good practice; keep the roots toxic to bugs during veg and the bugs will almost all die off. Use a secondary control method and you will never see them again.

DO:
DO Use a high-dose of imid as early as possible, ideally the Bayer C.I.K. DO raise the lights a bit or even switch out with flouros temporarily if plants are seriously stressed and it is reasonably possible. DO keep temps lower - alternate turning off lights for an hour or so if the day is too hot. Use an evaporative (swamp) cooler for low-cost cooling. DO take care of plant health as best as possible without over-pampering or making too many abrupt changes.

Do NOT over-soak roots, do NOT constantly keep re-applying imid (whatever system/medium/watering type), do NOT water again before plants need it (so imid can soak in and so they are not over-saturated. Hydro systems still need to water as often as they need to water).

I would recommend only 10-20 mL/gal of the Bayer C.I.K. for most hydro systems, particularly any system where there will be a lot of contact between pesticide water and roots (DWC, hydrofarm, NFT, aero etc). In such systems I don't think more than 25 mL/gal C.I.K. is ever necessary, though it is always better to do a stronger dose earlier than multiple lower doses at intervals.

Also: I would be careful using straight RO water for pesticide root-application, particularly for any extended period of time; it should not kill plants, but they will be fighting to preserve their minerals and nutrients against the pull of osmosis, which I can imagine will only add more stress. I would put 1/4-1/10 strength nutes in with the imid and RO water - this is probably not as much an issue with non-RO , non-distilled water, but a little nutes doesn't hurt. I personally ran Bayer C.I.K along with mid-full strength nutes with no problems.

Hope I helped!

-WB

Wish I would have read this before I treated mine in recirc =P Yes, I tried the high dosage that people have used in soil or hydro drain to waste,

And I put it in a recirculating system, thats where I think the problem is, it was in there for a whole day at that high dosage, with soil it just flushes out once and thats it, but with a recirculating setup it constantly bombards the plants roots.

On my new crop, I did treat them at 2-2.5 ml/gal, and I left it in the res with low dose of nutes for like 4 days.

Next time if I treat new clones (without bugs), I'll probably just treat them for 6-12 hours or so as you recommend, at a low dose (2-2.5 ml) of Bayer T&S, then drain and refill res with nutes.

 

[Bud Bundy]

How do I create a signature? Do I need a certain number of posts? Sorry to pollute. Thanks!

-WB

Honestly, I've been trying to figure out the same thing...no idea, LOL!

 

[Bud Bundy]

Day 9 (6/12/10)
-Finishing out flush today, going to replace with Transition nutes and start flowering
-Pulled lower right SSH clone, it looked stunted, replaced it with one of the backup SSH clones I had treated with Imid @ 5 ml/gal drain to waste in rockwool cube.
-Plants look a little droopy, but still look fairly healthy

 

[Bud Bundy]

In retrospect, after a week it looks like they aren't as vigorous as they could be, and are droopy and yellowing. These plants were not infected when I got them, and I treated them for as a preventative as an experiment.

I am going to pull and replant in 4 " rockwool cubes for observation, and see if they seem to recover, and compare their growth to non Imid treated clones.

I have decided instead to get new clones, and not treat them. I believe that the root aphid infection I got was from an infected "The White" clone I picked up from a dispensary, as I remember other people commenting they got root aphids from there as well.

 

[spleebale]

Bud: I am very sorry for your catastrophe. I am only happy it was such young plants. I wish I had included info for using less pesticide in a recirc system; since I haven't been doing recirc it must have just slipped my mind (I looked back over some posts because I swore I had said to use less in recirc systems, but if I did it was in a more obscure post and not in my main directions).

If I seemed at all defensive or offended it was exclusively because of NorKali pointing-fingers/jumping to conclusions. People love to act in charge and authoritative, even when they have NOTHING to offer; this peeves me. You have been perfectly decent and I feel that you have been helping the rest of the community along with your exploration of this problem; I applaud your response.




As to your conundrum: it would seem from Hoot's experience and yours that pesticides need to be used carefully in recirc systems. I do think that unplugging the airstones seriously contributed to it, but I recognize that it was essentially necessary given your setup/the foaming and that the pesticide was mostly what caused the plant droopage.

I think that pesticides (particularly systemics) should be run for only a very short period of time in recirc systems (2-4 hours). I think it is preferable to run higher doses (10-20 mL C.I.K., 7-10 mL Tree and Shrub) for shorter periods than the other way around. I base this from our combined experiences; I have had great results using SUPER high doses C.I.K. on drain-to-waste, even leaving the pesticide to sit in roots, while Hoot has had terrible results running moderate-low concentrations T&S (just imid, no B-cyfluthrin), which tells me that it is more harmful to run it longer/have more frequent exposure/continually soak roots in it than it is to hit them with a strong dose for a short time and then let them recover. I personally wonder whether it is actually the solvent that is doing the most damage and not even the pesticides themselves - as the solvent makes up most of the substance. It seems more than likely that the solvent coats the roots to some extent and does not allow them to breathe as well - perhaps rinsing it off/running the system after changing the res is a good idea.

As I have said multiple times: higher doses for shorter periods/less exposure is the way to go.


As to your plants, Bud: I would definitely give them a few more days to recover from shock. They need to be aggressively pushing forward (moving) when you click them into bloom. Hopefully this can work with your schedule. Hope I helped!

-WB

 

[spleebale]

Ok, I have gone through my posts where I mention Bayer Complete Insect Killer and have appended this to them all, because of your experience :

Note: applying imid products does seem to shock plant to some extent; if they are healthy they get over it right away, where most people report a positive change in appearance (new growth etc) the very next day. If plants are unhealthy, imid treatment can stress them and cause them to stall (sometimes even induces outbreaks of pathogens, like fungal leaf issues). The most important thing is to be careful with imid in recirculating hydro systems; far less imid is necessary when there will be such repeated contact with roots (5-20 mL C.I.K or 2.5-10 mL T&S). It is also important to run the pesticides for only a short period of time (2-4 hrs should be plenty!) and then change out the res and run the system again. I would personally base the length of time and concentration on how "exposed" the roots will be to the pesticide; DWC/hydrofarm systems probably only need ~30 min exposure with very low doses (since roots will be continually soaked in the solution). NFT and aero type systems could probably use slightly higher doses and exposure time, and top-feed or ebb/flow probably a bit more/longer still (perhaps 2-4 waterings for such container-hydro or rockwool slab/Hugo cube systems). Using higher levels of pesticides than the system calls for or letting pesticides stay around too long can be a recipe for disaster, as plants do not like to be continually exposed to the imid products (even at low levels) for very long.

Thank you, Bud, for helping to guide the state of the field disseminating important information to the community! You are an asset here.

-WB