How to Best PRESERVE a Strain with Limited Space/Effort

romanoweed · Jun 30, 2019

Ahh, Dankfrank
Now i got wich information wasnt transferred from me to you, its that i mean open Pollination of a SINGLE Line, i dont mean picking up some random Pollen from my Region.. haha, no i mean (well it might actually accidently happen outdoors) just the hopefully un-outcrossed open Pollination of a single Line.. So no possible Hemp, or cheap Genetics from Neighbours, i would have to check in following Seed-usage.

dank.frank · Jun 30, 2019

I know you're talking about a single line. LISTEN.

The way that everyone has been told to open pollinate is stupid.

Those telling us to do that are sitting in labs and in greenhouses creating super refined cultivars that only produce a single, individual cannabinoid.

That doesn't happen with open pollination. That happens with intelligent, selective breeding.

They tell you one thing - and they go and do something else while skipping and laughing all the way to the bank. You need to stop. LISTEN. LEARN.

There is a better way to approach single line preservation - that maintains all genetic traits and STILL allows you to make improvements to the line - IF - you know how to recognize what you have when you have it - if you make the right filial selections - and most importantly, if you have the room to save 4, 5, and 6 different generations of plants at the same time so you can have access to the breeding material that DID achieve your goal.

"Open Pollination"- is a ridiculous concept. You know what happens???

Your EARLIEST male - pollinates the entire field and hits every single pistil exposed. The rest are just taking up space.

However, selectively pollinating a branch on each female with pollen from each male - a couple days apart and labeling them and bagging them separate and sorting them to find which pairing produced the results you wanted...

Like I said. Good luck. :tiphat:

dank.Frank

Douglas.Curtis · Jun 30, 2019

Awesome! Ty

zif · Jun 30, 2019

dank.frank said:
"Open Pollination"- is a ridiculous concept.

I dig your thoughtful breeding plan - but this is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

OP is difficult for me to understand (my apologies rw), but if preservation means retaining (as close as possible to) all genes, open pollination is a plan Acquaah or Allard would support. It’s not hard to do in small spaces and with roughly equal male contributions. It’s a useful step ‘zero’ before embarking on any program, if the line itself is worth using.

In practice, it may act something like creating anything from F2s to who knows what - but if the progeny are relatively consistent, that is not particularly important. If they are not, it suggests that applying significant inbreeding pressure will fix a great deal of random traits - and hence that the OP seedlot will be an excellent reserve for restoring traits of interest that are lost after subsequent work.

dank.frank · Jul 1, 2019

Read what I said more carefully. As it is discussed by the layman in cannabis circles...the full scope of the genes are not being preserved in the first place, because you have no CLUE if you've even allowed for each male to interact with each female. You have no idea what genes may have possibly paired favorably. You sprout one seed and you may have to sprout another 10,000 to find a similar plant. When in reality, it just took you 10,000 more seeds to find another seed that was the same m/f pairing in that supposed "open-pollination".

That's why my last paragraph is a ramble that trails off about using different males on different branches of the same plant, selectively pollinating in a manner that ensures you have done two things:

1. You know every male has met every female - a true, full, preservation of the potential gene pairings in front of you.

2. Isolated / Tagged seed lots - so when you find the right result, you can simply go back to that seed lot, rather than hoping you find it again in the kilo of seed you just made.

You say, "an excellent reserve for storing traits of interest that are lost" ... and I say, well, that is the purpose of keeping a P1 generation and using it for back crossing - to reintroduce lost genes.

You don't do that with some new randomly selected seed plant and claim you've restored anything. All you've done is ADD MORE too the equation.

However, Bx'ing to a P1 generation parent held in reserve, DOES restore ONLY the traits of the current family line.

Again, people need to re-think breeding.

dank.Frank

zif · Jul 3, 2019

It's not hard to bulk pollen inputs roughly equally. Far less effort, indeed, than what you propose.

Further, I'd rather continue one line (i.e., do an OP) than generate ~2500 sublines (i.e., your method), if I want to preserve the genes in 10 packs of a P1.

But if you're after improvement instead of preservation generate (and evaluate) all of the sublines.

dank.frank said:
Read what I said more carefully. As it is discussed by the layman in cannabis circles...the full scope of the genes are not being preserved in the first place, because you have no CLUE if you've even allowed for each male to interact with each female. You have no idea what genes may have possibly paired favorably. You sprout one seed and you may have to sprout another 10,000 to find a similar plant. When in reality, it just took you 10,000 more seeds to find another seed that was the same m/f pairing in that supposed "open-pollination".

That's why my last paragraph is a ramble that trails off about using different males on different branches of the same plant, selectively pollinating in a manner that ensures you have done two things:

1. You know every male has met every female - a true, full, preservation of the potential gene pairings in front of you.

2. Isolated / Tagged seed lots - so when you find the right result, you can simply go back to that seed lot, rather than hoping you find it again in the kilo of seed you just made.

You say, "an excellent reserve for storing traits of interest that are lost" ... and I say, well, that is the purpose of keeping a P1 generation and using it for back crossing - to reintroduce lost genes.

You don't do that with some new randomly selected seed plant and claim you've restored anything. All you've done is ADD MORE too the equation.

However, Bx'ing to a P1 generation parent held in reserve, DOES restore ONLY the traits of the current family line.

Again, people need to re-think breeding.

dank.Frank

Dropped Cat · Jul 4, 2019

subbed

Douglas.Curtis · Jul 4, 2019

Love learning all this before embarking on anything serious. Thank you so much to those of you contributing your knowledge, I greatly appreciate it as I'm sure do others.

dank.frank · Jul 4, 2019

Zif - if "open pollination" works as described and desired, you still have "2,500 sublines" - you just don't have any labels for them or any clue which is which. How pedantic you choose to be about that application does NOT change the supposed outcome of variance.

It's not as if mixed pollen is some how chemically combining to masterfully mix all the genes into one super granule. Nope. It's just seeds from 6 different males on the exact same 1.5 gram flower.

That's USELESS. I mean, sure, if your goal is to say, when I first got this weed it was shit - and 25 years later, I've managed to preserve it. It's still exactly as shitty as it was the first day I got it.

Is THAT what you both mean by "preservation"? Surely there is a pathway to preservation that also allows for improvement through specific trait isolation and recombination?!?!

dank.Frank

clearheaded · Jul 4, 2019

both are correct guys.

if your goal is preserve a few traits danks way is "best"

if your goal is to preserve as much genetics as possible good or bad mixed pollen on evry female is best making 10s of thousands of seeds so get statistically pretty much all combinations available.

so if want to preserve genetics for the sake of it incase something interesting or library purpose then open pollination OR are you wanting to preserve a few traits you want? then selective breeding out unwanted genes. is it already an IBL or untouched landrace? might help clarify your goal.

wanting preserve lemon skunk may mean selecting lemon rich male and female to preserve best of the line. or is it full of different phenos waiting to be selected? and want a vast number of combinations to find something novel.

so intent is key... will people ever want hermie prone thai plants preserved?

yes can do both, just more tedious.

GOT_BUD? · Jul 4, 2019

GOT_BUD? · Jul 4, 2019

I think what Frank is trying to lay out is the best way to keep a Black Russian heirloom tomato. Not just create more generic "tomatoes".

I'm not saying to take his word as gospel. But he has done the leg work and condensed those two voluminous tomes of knowledge down and simplified it to the point where I can understand what the eggheads who wrote it are trying to tell me.

After seeing his results and feeling his passion through his posts and interactions with other members here on ICMag, I would definitely listen to anything Frank has to say.

I'll stop swinging from your nuts now, Frank. :laughing:

zif · Jul 4, 2019

dank.frank said:
It's still exactly as shitty as it was the first day I got it.
dank.Frank

Bingo. Now you’re thinking like a traditional plant breeder. ;-)

I might add: “or as good as the day you got it”. Ask the RKS folks if they’d like access to OP material from a true, back in the day RKS population.

You’ve inverted the normal approach. You have a breeding plan, and you apply it regardless of goals. Because it’s the absolute best breeding plan.

I have goals, and a toolbox full of breeding plans. *One* way to preserve all of the genes in a P1 is open pollination. Sure, there are other approaches. None are easier - which was the original ask.

kro-magnon · Jul 5, 2019

Those last 3 years I've mainly grown my own cross of Headbanger x Colombia Gold and the intel given by Dank Frank is pure gold. I have a small scale operation so it's not easy to breed in my set-up but I'm still quite proud of the result I've harvested, I'm currently selecting parents to make the F3.

dank.frank · Jul 5, 2019

F2 is where you want to play. Create your segregated family lines now - find like pairings in male and female to carry the line towards high yield, shortest flower period, or whatever you choose - OR - attempt to select parents from polar opposite ends of the genetic spectrum you have in front of you. Tallest to shortest, bushiest to bean pole, etc. In this manner, you at least preserve a wider array of traits than if you try to select for like pairings.

It really just depends on what your goals are and what you are trying to accomplish.

dank.Frank

romanoweed · Jul 28, 2019

So, i have a Concern that the Method wich Dank Frank showed brings strong inbreeding Depression with it. I read the Article wich he linked, and it said the same : that this Collodial-silver-Method brings strong inbreeding depression, but they said it that in certain Circumstances one can avoid it.
So, i wasnt really reading all the Sites trough after that; about how to avoid it. Cause atleast there is the Possibility of strong inbreeding Depression. And what im asking for is Preservation... Probably i overrate the Problem of inbr. Depr. , i basically have no Idea, but my Feel says clearly that is the last Thing i want in my say rare Thai Landrace .. So it seems a clear shootout-Criterium for me.
So, i rather prefere the Methods that i find in the already liked Thread: how to neutrally doo open Pollination: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=8596790#post8596790
There you find rather the Method of normal Inbreeding, wich needs more brain-capacity, but the Goal to preserve something seems more realistic still. The Member called: Fuel helped me alot there!

romanoweed · Jul 28, 2019

I think inbreeding Depression to me means: its normore very viable, or It will mutuate badly.. Beeing nomore fixabe for most Part. I dont know how fast that coud happen, but i heard it to happen. Probably you still could run a Strain 10 /20 Generations after Dank Franks method. I just assume, dont know.
But for me thats a little low, and basicaly any Loss in longivity is rather a big Minus in my Preference. Not saying there arent plus Points, but saying there are eventual minus Points.

dank.frank · Jul 28, 2019

I'm sorry you don't understand the fundamentals of breeding and how that relates to your goals. Good luck!

The only minus that exists in the scenario I presented is your ability to digest it.

dank.Frank

romanoweed · Jul 28, 2019

I saw a doku about Food-Plants , and how todays Breeding Industrie is producing sellable Product. As i understoud it, nearly all our Food-Plants are highly Imbreed parental Male, aswell as highly imbreed parental Female, then this you use to perform a Last outcross. A important Detail i remember was, that these Inbreed plants was actually unviable, they wouldnt take Pollen if not helped with strange human Techniques.
And if there wouldnt be a last Outcross, (wich possiby bought back viability , or not) the inbreed parental Plant would not be, or still might be unviable in therms of her Ability to reproduce herselve. So, this would not be what the Landracelover wants, if he then dont wanna to just outcross it. Preserervation for me means the Absense of a need to Outcross it aswell, atleast to a highest possibe Degree. That is atlest higher on my List.

I just wanted to say i saw some inbreeding Depression happening in this Dokumentation, wich, just to say didnt seem to support like a conspiracy-Idea, Bio-idea, it was just a reknown doku-channel video, nor did it seem very trivially uninsightfull, cause they talked with People trying to create the allday preffered Uniformness (foodindustry s rather Price pressure/rentability behind) without to go so drastic ways.. Wich seemed to be very rare to then be allowed from State. So, i have seen it to happen, heard it from a Cannabis Strain aswell.. That doesent say how high the Risk is for it to happen, but atleast i have one reported Cannabis-Strain where this happend..

TychoMonolyth · Jul 28, 2019

Then why do we have weed? Hell, why do we have potatoes, strawberries, tomatoes, fucking cows even? I think you need to do some reading dude.

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