Inside Out Trees, Silo Op, custom RDWC, water cooled

[LSWM]

I didn't buy my air handlers, I made them. The most recent unit uses a forty dollar floor fan and a radiator from an '88 Volvo turbo, sourced from the junkyard. The fan shroud on the radiator was what made it work so well; it fits into the box fan housing like they were made for each other. Having just wrapped up the first 24 hours of testing, I can say for sure it will maintain 81f in a room with at least 3500W (4 x 860W CDM).

I have wondered about doing something like this. My father has a MASSIVE radiator he installed on his dune buggy to cool his fuel injected small block 350 Chevy. It has two big axial fans with a rubber grommet that goes all the way around. That setup is probably cost prohibitive, but I could see some sort of DIY working just fine, with how well my DIY swamp cooler works...

...still wondering if I could use my cold tap water as a source for the air handler and feed that into the RO, or RO reservoir through the air handler and into my res's... Free cooling and dehumidification...

If you were to build another air handler, where and what parts would you source?

 

[seebobski]

Just so straight. 1000 ballast gain .2-.4 amp drop when changed from 120 to 240 volt. Also I quote startup amps not run amps.
For an import my eco plus commercial 1.5 HP has served me well. I think we started close to the same time to jump the water train!

 

[Ttystikk]

Just so straight. 1000 ballast gain .2-.4 amp drop when changed from 120 to 240 volt. Also I quote startup amps not run amps.
For an import my eco plus commercial 1.5 HP has served me well. I think we started close to the same time to jump the water train!

It depends on a lot of things. For example, digital or magnetic? Is your line voltage actually 240 or 120V? What's the wire thickness between ballast and main breaker? Only a very poor 120V circuit would show such a difference, and then likely only with an old magnetic ballast. Been doing my electrician homework lately!

Another thing; there is no startup spike with ballasts, they're a linear load. The linear load is worse in a way though, because unlike a motor it pulls all the watts all the time, so one needs to follow the 'stay under 80% of the smaller rated of either breaker or wire capacity' rule very strictly with lighting circuits.

Motors are a different bird; they have a big startup spike, then settle in at a fraction of their rated output. My water pumps are like that. Special breakers or just plenty of excess capacity will deal with this.

Finally comes the AC/chiller compressors. These are the worst of both worlds, lol- Seriously; they deliver both a big startup spike AND fat continuous loads!

We started close to the same time. I wonder what differences our approaches have...

I know I've gotten a lot more DIY over time.

 

[Ttystikk]

I have wondered about doing something like this. My father has a MASSIVE radiator he installed on his dune buggy to cool his fuel injected small block 350 Chevy. It has two big axial fans with a rubber grommet that goes all the way around. That setup is probably cost prohibitive, but I could see some sort of DIY working just fine, with how well my DIY swamp cooler works...

...still wondering if I could use my cold tap water as a source for the air handler and feed that into the RO, or RO reservoir through the air handler and into my res's... Free cooling and dehumidification...

If you were to build another air handler, where and what parts would you source?

That monster radiator would lead to gigantic potential bandwidth in terms of removing heat from a space- IF your chiller is up to the job of removing that much heat. It might handle 8kW of lighting all by itself if the water you feed it is cold enough and moving fast enough.

By the way, it's that second requirement that means inlet water isn't very useful as a primary source of cooling; not enough water coming in, carrying enough cold with it. Better to install a heat exchanger coil in your cold water reservoir. Pass incoming water from your outside source through the coil to transfer heat. If the inlet water is ever too warm, you'll need a bypass.

I'm trying to befriend hvac guys, and I haunt junkyards and hardware stores. I get lots of ideas and the parts to build them in such places.

 

[seebobski]

I think we are close in thoughts. We love water chilling and diy. There is one we don't, I use and have strong belief 2 stage compressors will win in the race. Unless you change heat load to the season. Turn off lights in summer and turn more on in winter. I feel like plants and kids thrive with love and consistent environments. I grow all year and a 1 ton and a 3/4 ton does it for me. My dual stage temp control takes care of seasonal changes also day and night loads. Why throw 1 3/4 tons on every time ? I don't! Only when the demand is there. Look in industrial chillers they offer the options of dual compressors and can achieve 20f to -20 f .
What's your take on the banks brand that hydro innovations sells?

 

[Ttystikk]

I want a Banks 5 Ton.

 

[seebobski]

Did you look at amps for 5 ton? Its 32 with 50 max. At 32 amps average 6.2 amps per ton of cooling. Now looking at 10 ton was 42 with max 60. The 10 ton gets 4.2 amps per ton for comparison.
I would look at others for 5 tons.

 

[Ttystikk]

Did you look at amps for 5 ton? Its 32 with 50 max. At 32 amps average 6.2 amps per ton of cooling. Now looking at 10 ton was 42 with max 60. The 10 ton gets 4.2 amps per ton for comparison.
I would look at others for 5 tons.

An excellent point. I'll have to discuss the efficiency ratings with them in more detail, to see why there is such a big difference.

My biggest interest in one of these units is the ability to reject the heat as hot water, which has obvious efficiency implications in the home. If something similar can be done to any chiller, that would change my thinking considerably.

 

[seebobski]

A water cooled chiller just has two water to water heat exchangers instead of one right. Thing I see is you need near same demand for hot and cold water witch in winter for you would work. So would a compressor less unit in winter where you live! But what's the plan for all the hot water in summer with a heat pump? Now a chiller with air and water cooled in one to change up per season or demand.
Look at industrial chiller manufactures when serious and ask for qoutes . They usually don't post price.

 

[Ttystikk]

A water cooled chiller just has two water to water heat exchangers instead of one right. Thing I see is you need near same demand for hot and cold water witch in winter for you would work. So would a compressor less unit in winter where you live! But what's the plan for all the hot water in summer with a heat pump? Now a chiller with air and water cooled in one to change up per season or demand.
Look at industrial chiller manufactures when serious and ask for qoutes . They usually don't post price.

The advantage to the Banks 5 Ton unit is that it has an option to be water cooled- and that it automatically switches to air cooled when the water section isn't keeping up. I plan to use the excess heat for dehuey and hot tub in summer, plus the usual hot air heat rejection.

 

[seebobski]

If banks chillers offer the option I believe others would too. Its problely a flow sensor and a relay to turn the fan off . I'm not looking to buy at the moment but love knowledge. When I move and own the home I will expand and need a new chiller . Till then I will follow the path I'm on! The amp load on the 5 ton seems higher amps per btu than the 3hp you have. That's why I mentioned looking at industrial chiller manufactures! Please update if more information is available. I value your thoughts and experiences and hope I provide the same!

 

[Ttystikk]

I will have an in depth conversation with the good folks at Hydro Innovations/Surna next week and I'll update here with what they have to say.

4 amps per Ton of cooling is enough better than 5- nevermind 6!- that it's worth paying extra for.

 

[Ttystikk]

If banks chillers offer the option I believe others would too. Its problely a flow sensor and a relay to turn the fan off . I'm not looking to buy at the moment but love knowledge. When I move and own the home I will expand and need a new chiller . Till then I will follow the path I'm on! The amp load on the 5 ton seems higher amps per btu than the 3hp you have. That's why I mentioned looking at industrial chiller manufactures! Please update if more information is available. I value your thoughts and experiences and hope I provide the same!

I could use your help locating such a manufacturer to talk to. Most of the single vs two stage HVAC discussion revolves around a two speed AC compressor, which would be of limited value to our application. A VFD would be better.

I don't know enough to know what would be best for my application; I'm still in the early stages of studying the options.

 

[Ttystikk]

I'm not convinced a two stage compressor based system makes sense for water chilling systems. A properly designed system has a reservoir that serves a similar purpose, and AC doesn't do well for multiple spaces- which can be timed to take advantage of a single chiller's output.

There are units sold in Europe that emit cold air on one side of the compressor- and hot water at a user specified temperature on the other, something like a combination heat pump, AC and tankless water heater.

If that device can be made to provide a consistent temperature for the hot water side, then surely a chiller can. I'm not asking for too much, only an efficient future.

 

[seebobski]

The inverter style split ac(vdf) converted to chiller are not seen . That would be best. Two stages are close in efficiency!
Google industrial chillers. There's quite a few in the USA. Its hard to argue that btu load changes in seasons and day to night. Why throw all amps on when a few are needed. Yes the res helps but two chillers or two compressor chiller helps even more. This is my experience with two chillers on one controller. Also a bonus electrical circuits are a lot smaller. Startup surge is split making load center panel a safer load balancing the load out of phase. I don't get power spikes like a big unit would.

 

[Ttystikk]

Equipment running on 240V doesn't require load balancing, just stuff running on 120V.

Startup load isn't as big as feared; 60A on 5 Ton Banks unit, and I'd run that much cable anyway.

I do my load balancing with the loads themselves, not the equipment so my system runs more consistently day to night than some.

 

[seebobski]

OK on the new 150 amp main your going to leave 60 amps startup/32 amps to run just to chill? At 8k day and night. That's a another 40 with 20%= 48 amps. Pumps and fans 10 amps. = 118 amps max load as a guess! if appliances are not gas in home that's not much head room to live in the house. If the 2 ton chill king is truly 8.4 amps you could have 48000 btu for 16.8 amps and one starts at a time. One 20 -30 amp breaker would run both with room to startup! Not a 60 amp line! All this was calculated by 220 v. Balance of start up amps are affected by both 120 and 220. Phase balanced is 120volts or with multi phase! 220 is balanced on 2 phase is correct!

 

[seebobski]

Opps I think you run 4 k so 94 amps. 50 amps with 2 two ton chillers and 4k of lights and 20 amps 120 v for pumps and fans! You don't see the advantage?

 

[Ttystikk]

I need you to explain those numbers, I'm not sure what they represent.

 

[seebobski]

Those numbers are a max amp load that has to be calculated to not go over your main 150 amp incoming power.