we got a product in the uk that has paclo like effects derived from seaweed, called Rocksoff, but its not paclo based
New kelp derived paclo
- Thread starter theother
- Start date
How do you know that? You had it tested? The UK are about the most incompetent authorities in the world where it comes to testing hydro products. Ah actually Australia is number one and UK two.
I know the manufacturer smart ass
BubbaBear
Member
Awww man, you burst my bubble I wanted to believe in magic kelp lol. I hear you man theres all of these magical boosters and no one wants to say whats really in them and they all have some convincing mumbo jumbo b.s. sales pitch about the kreb cycle or humates or magical plant extracts. Id like to think a large company like Grow More would be upfront about chemicals like that and just take the route GH took with Bush Load and be upfront about whats in it and have it labeled for ornamentals but I could be totally wrong.
The phosphorus compound there talking about in avalanche is phosphoric acid its on the list of ingredients. You seem pretty educated on the subject, I know there are some naturally sourced and safe PGRs out there like triacontanol, what other PGRs are there that are safe?
Wouldn't be surprised if you were the manufacturer smart ass
Yeah I know loads of manufacturers - funny though pal, they tend not to give up their trade secrets. Bottom line - no kelp acts like PBZ. If you want to justify using chem PGRs at least try not to sound like a pleb.Sorry about that BubbaBear - no kelp acts like PBZ (full stop). Yes Tria is shown to be safe - no data to suggest otherwise that I know of. The problem is that in order for a product to stop/reduce apical dominance it needs to be a GA inhibitor. As for hardening up buds more so than normally would be possible with nutrients I'm not sure what pathway would apply but do understand that by inhibiting the GA pathway this does make buds more dense than normal. However, other physiological processes might also apply. In my own experiences the best way to achieve genetic potential is to ensure optimums re environment and nutrition. Plants are extremely adept at fulfilling their own physiological processes to optimum when optimums are applied. The prevalent use of PGRs in my mind is a result of the overus of phosphorus and the prevalence amongst growers to use HPS lamps alone (rather than blended spectrum of HPS + MH). I.e. from something I am writing now:
There are several problems associated to having too much phosphorus in solution. Firstly, high P levels are associated to plant stretch. That is, as University Professor Paul V. Nelson (Department of Horticultural Science, North Carolina State University) points out: “low phosphate levels result in compact plants, while high phosphate levels result in tall plants.” It is my belief that this factor, along with the prevalent use of HPS lamps alone (versus blended spectrum HPS + MH lighting), is, at least, in part, responsible for the high use of likely harmful (to human health) chemical PGRs (subclass growth retardants) amongst medical marijuana growers.
As for phosphorus - it doesn't matter what it is derived from - P is P and is only available for uptake in generally speaking two forms. I.e.
Phosphorus (P) is an important plant macronutrient, making up about 0.2% of a plant's dry weight. It is a component of key molecules such as nucleic acids, phospholipids, and ATP, and, consequently, plants can not grow without a reliable supply of this nutrient. Phosphorus is also involved in controlling key enzyme reactions and in the regulation of metabolic pathways.
Phosphorus is an element which occurs in forms that are strongly dependent on pH. In the root zone phosphorus can be found as PO43-, HPO42, and H2PO4- ions; the last two ions are the main forms of P taken by plants. On inert substrates, the largest amount of P available in a nutrient solution is presented when its pH is slightly acidic (pH 5). In alkaline and highly acidic solutions the concentration of P decreases in a significant way. Namely, with pH 5, 100% of P is present as H2PO4-; this form converts into HPO4-2 at pH 7.3, reaching 100% at pH 10. The pH range that dominates the ion H2PO4-2 on HPO4- is between 5 and 6 (De Rijck & Schrevens, 1997). In research surrounding P availability by Jacek Dysko et al (2008) with tomatoes grown in various hydroponic organic and inorganic substrates it was shown that regardless of the substrate type, optimum yields were gained at pH 5.5.“The marketable yield obtained with a pH of 5.5 was significantly higher in relation to the yield obtained at pH 6.5, but it did not differ significantly from the yields obtained at pH 4.5, 5.0 and 6.0. “ Similar findings were made by Chohura et al (2004) while studying the effects of pH in tomato culture grown in rockwool.
Here's the story that sparked the CDFA sweep for PGR products
http://www.manicbotanix.com/hydro-hype/42-flower-dragon.html
And here's the follow up after multiple PGR products were yanked from the the Ca and Oregon markets.
http://www.manicbotanix.com/hydro-hype/27-pgrs-and-medical-marijuana.html
Oh BTW Sativa Breather we also had a series of PBZ and Alar products removed from the UK market through the CDFA. It took loads of work to get your useless authorities off their arses and eventually we had to remind them of their EU commitments. Good ol rip off England - please bend over and pay your taxes and VAT and council rates and in return get very little (NHS isn't bad must admit - shame about the weather
.Have you got a link to the article? GA will elongate plants and shouldn't be used in bud set. PBZ is a GA inhibitor so what we are talking about are complete opposites.
Wouldn't be surprised if you were the manufacturer smart ass
dont be a prick - I do not use chem PGR's.
Its not kelp, it s a mirror image of a gene that acts like pac found in seaweed.
And Im not the manufacturer -Evoponics is
let's hear more on this!
Bit like the pot calling the kettle black. refrain from calling people names and I think you will find others do also.
Just read it and what its talking about is auxins and cytokinins (not GA) at bottom of page 2 and again at top of page 3. You've also somewhat misinterpreted the data. What I'm largely discussing there is the ability of cytokinins to reduce stretch and enhance cell division. Auxins on the other hand while fantastic for root stimulation can cause apical dominance particularly when used s=during the stretch cycle at even low levesl. Again though even synthetic cytokinins such as 6-BAP act completely differently from PBZ and no kelp possesses anywhere near enough cytokinin to act as PGRs. In fact you look at the analysis of a kelp on page 3 you'll see that the bulk of it is organic matter (e.g. carbon) then nutrients and then amino acids which while beneficial particularly to plants under stress don't act as PGRs. I think you've misinterpreted what I am saying which is common when people analyze research (I have done this many times myself because all factors need to be looked at and sometimes you miss things). Basically though your initial question was:
" I `ve read an article by you talking about using kelp extracts with Cytokinins and Gibberellins to manipulate growth .
Can you explain the difference ?
Thanks for sharin
EB ."
so no I've never written an article about using kelp extracts with Cytokinins and Gibberellins to manipulate growth. I have written about the benefits of kelp as biostimulants (not PGRs) and about how auxins and cytokinins work in plants. Hope that clears things up.
G`day Glow
Much appreciated you taking the time to spell it out .
I have read that site extensively . And found some of the best written and communicated techs any where on the net .
The do`s and don`t are all spelt out .On your site .
Hurry up and get yourself 50 posts I have more questions I don`t want to derail this thread with . lol .
Thanks for sharin
EB .
Much appreciated you taking the time to spell it out .
I have read that site extensively . And found some of the best written and communicated techs any where on the net .
The do`s and don`t are all spelt out .On your site .
Hurry up and get yourself 50 posts I have more questions I don`t want to derail this thread with . lol .
Thanks for sharin
EB .
Hey glow, sorry quoted this post (on a tablet) couldn't find the exact one back a page or two. So basically in your opinion then naturally occurring paclo is a myth? For many years I have always heard it was present in kelp but most companies refined it from a fungicide used in aus and the uk. From my understanding it so some kind of triaz ring thing where they separate out one part but it basically still is as dangerous as the fungicide itself'. No joke for years (like maybe 10) I have been hearing about kelp, particularly this non Norwegian kelp that is super high in it. So in your opinion that is just a fallacy and PBz does not occur in nature?
While I'm at it, Tria from bees wax, fact or myth?
Hey there theother, I expect myth but haven't run the numbers or been given anything credible from anyone on this thread. Nor is there a single piece of research to support that a natural form of PBZ exists in kelps (none that I have ever seen and I am continually researching actives for various projects I'm involved in). I've handed it over to a PhD biochemist pal of mine who's looking into it. His initial comment was that such a claim was "ludicrous" (actually a molec bio friend also added that "wow drugs are bad" - he has a sense of humor so don't be offended
but I've asked him to run the numbers. Tria is typically found in plant waxes. Plants such as alfalfa. I've never heard of it coming from bees wax but then I've never looked at this and it is feasible but why worry when we know Tria comes from alfalfa? No there is no kelp that is high in PBZ or anything similar at a molecular level. For myself I see this as round 3. Keep in mind that there is a lot of history here with PGR pedlars and denialists who scream foul when you point out the obvious. This mess dates back to 2003 when I and others exposed Superbud (aka Superdud) on OverGrow and Natures High (now both defunct sites) and other forums. Either way I have linked the CDFA to this thread and I expect they'll be looking into it (in fact, I'll be following up on this myself). I've also had a UK colleague buy a bottle of this wonder kelp (I wonder what's in it?) Sativa Breather talks of and we'll be lab testing it in the next few weeks. Tip is learn to grow properly - invest in blended spectrum lighting, optimize your environment and nutrition and you'll get maximum yields (above and beyond anything PBZ can provide) . For now - chemical PGRs are for losers (no nothing half wits) who have no right to be producing med. What is worse is that while it should be obvious that a product contains potentially harmful PGRs people choose to deny it because they're too slack or too incompetent to do things ethically. Cheers
No probs EB and I'm glad my scribblings have helped you out. I'm in a massive rewrite of my book at the moment with about 150 - 160 pages on nutrient and additives so that growers will become informed enough to discern between the science and the hype. There's another post
Grow More Mendo Avalanche is not Palco...it is a different type of tech being Copper based
Grow More has homeland security dropping in on them randomly to check on their supply of ammonium nitrates ... They play by the rules and don't mislabel anything...
All Palco based products suck anyways
Grow More has homeland security dropping in on them randomly to check on their supply of ammonium nitrates ... They play by the rules and don't mislabel anything...
All Palco based products suck anyways
Interesting, will be curious to see how it turns out. It looks like I either misquoted the hydro store guy, or maybe he just wasn't up to speed on it. Any thoughts on a copper based late flower hardener?Hey there theother, I expect myth but haven't run the numbers or been given anything credible from anyone on this thread. Nor is there a single piece of research to support that a natural form of PBZ exists in kelps (none that I have ever seen and I am continually researching actives for various projects I'm involved in). I've handed it over to a PhD biochemist pal of mine who's looking into it. His initial comment was that such a claim was "ludicrous" (actually a molec bio friend also added that "wow drugs are bad" - he has a sense of humor so don't be offended
Tria is typically found in plant waxes. Plants such as alfalfa. I've never heard of it coming from bees wax but then I've never looked at this and it is feasible but why worry when we know Tria comes from alfalfa? No there is no kelp that is high in PBZ or anything similar at a molecular level. For myself I see this as round 3. Keep in mind that there is a lot of history here with PGR pedlars and denialists who scream foul when you point out the obvious. This mess dates back to 2003 when I and others exposed Superbud (aka Superdud) on OverGrow and Natures High (now both defunct sites) and other forums. Either way I have linked the CDFA to this thread and I expect they'll be looking into it (in fact, I'll be following up on this myself). I've also had a UK colleague buy a bottle of this wonder kelp (I wonder what's in it?) Sativa Breather talks of and we'll be lab testing it in the next few weeks. Tip is learn to grow properly - invest in blended spectrum lighting, optimize your environment and nutrition and you'll get maximum yields (above and beyond anything PBZ can provide) . For now - chemical PGRs are for losers (no nothing half wits) who have no right to be producing med. What is worse is that while it should be obvious that a product contains potentially harmful PGRs people choose to deny it because they're too slack or too incompetent to do things ethically. Cheers
Do you know if the copper based tech works? Is it effective at keeping height down or just as a late flower hardener. I was always interested in the whole node stacking thing paclo does but was never willing to use it. I don't really have too much interest in hardening off. Would it be kind of comparable to like big swell and auroras other PK thing? For the late flower tightening up thing I have heard good things about the aurora combination.
