Root Aphids in 2500 plant LEGAL Washington Grow

[Granger2]

SirStynkalot,
Yes the oil based forms of azadiractin have minor systemic effect. Azasol, being water soluble has more systemic effect. It is one tool among others. I wouldn't rely on any one product to fight RA's. I've been referring to soil drenches rather than spraying. Good luck. -granger

 

[ColoradoOG]

I would like to add that the majority of the "master growers" ( I just threw up a little in my mouth) in the "legal cannabis industry" here in Colorado don't have a fucking clue.

There is nothing to worry about at all. I am sure granger can hold is own to a complete group of idiots.

lol tell me about it, i cant stand the term "master gardener" im so annoyed with that but at the same time its cool there is not much competition for those that know their shit. Just wait though its a matter of time and those that suck will be forced out..Things are just getting started

 

[SirStynkalot]

Master Gardener certification is an actual thing though. It's cool. Should check it out before you bash on it

 

[Seaf0ur]

I'm not gonna read this entire thread... I'm into arthropods, and this one's easy.

1. mite. if mouthparts extend down and it moves slower, its a pest. mouthparts forward, quick moving= predator.

2. fungus gnat. the split Y vein in the wingtips as well as the visible definition between abdomen and thorax says so.

3. Phylloxera ... the red assed root aphid.

Personally, I'd release as many Dalotia coriaria as possible. They are flight capable soil dwelling beetles that can easily propagate an area and all life stages are voracious predators.

 

[Photosynthesis]

Master Gardener certification is an actual thing though. It's cool. Should check it out before you bash on it

The "master Gardener" program you speak of is real indeed.

The cannabis growers that self title themselves "Master Gardeners" are as real as Dolly Parton's breasts.

 

[CoastalKind]

@ NWGanjafarmer, please please please don't release a bunch of chemy insecticided harsh flowers into the market on the dawn of the legalization movement. You spoke of righting the ship, this ship needs to be brought to harbor and have the barnacles scrapped and the leaks patched. If you can make it to harbor consider that a victory. In other words your yield at this point is diminished no matter what for this cycle. I know its been said before but after you pull this crop you need to clean the shit out of everything. Bomb the place with foggers, start over new, and never take any clothes that have been there with the pests there again. After that, practice sanitation before you go into your grow site like it's a religion. Prevention is the only true cure, a stitch in time saves nine(stitches) my friend. And also like what has been said before rotate your insecticides if you use them again in the future so that you don't make super bugs. Never use the same kind of insecticide twice in a row. The problem with indoor grows is its an artificial environment. There is no equilibrium, so when a bug does get introduced it can blow up out of control since there is nothing to inhibit it's growth like there would be in nature. Grow organic in soil, give the soil worms and nematodes and predatory wasps and beetles, they are your allies. Organic plants have the strongest immune systems, grow organic, feed the soil and the rest will fallows. Also something that no one has mentioned is worm casting teas, worm casting teas have things in them that make your plants taste like sour milk to the insects. I saw someone mention some kind of tea, I like worm casting teas personally as a mild form of pest prevention. They have a thing in them that weakens chitin, which is what insects exoskeletons are made from. The little soft bodied sap suckers can't stand it. Use it as a soil drench and most of all as a foliar spray. Lastly wind, lots and lots of fans moving tons of air makes for a more hostile environments for both mites and gnats and the plants bending from the wind makes the stems fatter and stronger kinda like lifting weights for plants. Your mantra should be Equilibrium. remember the movie bio dome? That's what you want.

 

[gobyebye]

Hey guys, so I recently have taken over for a Tier II Cannabis Production Facility here in Washington. Were up to 2500 plants with 3 of 5 rooms built. Unfortunately, I believe I have root aphids. I know this is a repost, but i believe this warrants it own post due to the incredible scale of problem.

So it started as with most, in that we noticed what we thought were fungus gnats flying about the facility. We used foliar and soil-top sprayed Azatrol, Azamax and pure neem oil (all in conjunction with a soap) in rotation to begin battling this problem. It seemed to quell the population. Then today, we noticed high levels of the "gnats" flying about. We disrupted some of the top layer of soil in a pot and the pot literally came alive with creepy crawlies. 100's of thousands of them.

Here is a close up of one the various forms i have found so far:
http://s113.photobucket.com/user/ganjafarmernw/library/

What I could really use help with is a positive ID of Class&Order of this pest.

From there, please weigh in on your opinions for the following management strategy:

1) there is no way we can scrap the flower room. too far in debt.

2) we plan to heavily water all pots with a 6.2mL per gallon H20 of azamax, followed at next watering need by application of Orthene by means of heavy watering, followed at the next watering with an inoculation of Beauveria bassiana (BotaniGard). We also plan to spray azatrol intermitidly to help reduce populations of the flyers.

3) all new planting will have soil ammended with diatomaceous earth at the rate of 1 cup per 3 gallons of soil.



One of our biggest problems is that our flower room is currently entirely overcrowded. They will be spread into our new room, 50-50, in the next few days.



Please hit me with all your ideas guys. Job on the line here

Hey ganjafarmer so it does in fact look like you have root aphids. as stated below nematodes will do the trick you can get a coupole million for around 20 dollars. They come in a sponge and go ahead and soak that in water in a 5 gal bucket and go around and sqeeze a little over each pot , and certainly a neem cake for the soil wouldnt hurt. Im a consultant for a lot of the larger i-502 grow operations out here in the pnw and would love to come by and take a look around and even help with increasiung your production outputs and quality standards. We have been in this buisness for the last 3 years with alot of larger scale grow operation experience under our belt. Go ahead and pm me if you have any other questions. Id like to come by and give a little knowledge on what can be added to increase performance and maximize to your grow op. Best of luck

 

[Morcheeba*]

...give the soil worms and nematodes and predatory wasps and beetles, they are your allies. Organic plants have the strongest immune systems, grow organic, feed the soil and the rest will fallows. Also something that no one has mentioned is worm casting teas, worm casting teas have things in them that make your plants taste like sour milk to the insects. I saw someone mention some kind of tea, I like worm casting teas personally as a mild form of pest prevention. They have a thing in them that weakens chitin, which is what insects exoskeletons are made from. The little soft bodied sap suckers can't stand it...

good info....here is some info explaining it.
http://outoftheboxconstruction.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Chitinase-Enzyme-Nature%E2%80%99s-Insect-Repellent.pdf

http://www.google.com/patents/US20020090669

 

[CoastalKind]

Around 8 years ago I worked at an organic nursery for the summer that grew vegetable starts and flowering ornamental plant starts, mostly annuals, mostly in little 4" x 4" pots. I did everything, mixed the soil in to our own recipe in a cement mixer, the soil always got a few scoops of worm gold brand worm castings, started the seeds in little cells in the 72 cell seeding trays and put them under the automated misters in the shaded green house to start, up potted them to the 4 inches, made the worm casting tea, and watered everything once a week with an overhead watering of the castings tea, not to mention just watering an acre of potted plants with tap water every day. An acre of potted plants, no pesticides, and not a single pest problem. The lack of an pests or damage from pests was remarkable. There are only two things I could attribute this to, the first thing is the worm castings tea, and that was no accident. The use of the worm casting tea as an insect repellent was very much a conscious effort by the owner of the nursery in a conscious attempt to not use pesticides or fungicides, and it worked. The second thing I could attribute the health of there plants to is the wide range of plant species he had in such a relatively small area. The diversity of plants undoubtedly allowed for a diversity of insects, some of which must have been predatory. Some midwest and great plains farmers are currently practicing no till multi-cropping and are also reporting that the more plants species they introduce to there fields the less pest problems they have. And while I realize by the nature of what you are doing, NWGanjaFarmer, that this is going to be a mono-crop scenario, I urge you to try and imitate balanced ecosystem to the fullest extant that you can.

 

[SirStynkalot]

Just for a follow up, in future you're supposed to report it when you spill H2O2 and step in it. It's a workplace safety and liability issue.

I'd suggest calling WISHA and asking for a walkthrough with a consultant. It sounds like your op isn't even close to following the applicable laws and regulations. If you put off this step you're a lot likely to hurt someone and get sued in the future.

 

[magiccannabus]

Seems kind of insane to try to eliminate the problem manually in an operation so big. Predator bugs are really an effective solution, and are basically the entire reason outdoor grows don't tend to get eaten up. I've grown in prairies and forests and never once lost a mature plant to pests. There are lots of beetles around here that love eating mites and other bugs. Trying to sterilize everything is labor intensive and will just mean that the fight never ends.

 

[DabSnob]

Mycotrol or Botanigard at double the recommended dosage. soak pots and drench plants. every 3-5 days, up to 7 times ( to completely disrupt their life-cycle ). Over a year ago I battled root aphids HARD, and won. haven't found a single bug since I started cleaning daily and foliar feeding with OGBiowar tea (foliar/root) weekly.

 

[EclipseFour20]

Mycotrol or Botanigard at double the recommended dosage. soak pots and drench plants. every 3-5 days, up to 7 times ( to completely disrupt their life-cycle ). Over a year ago I battled root aphids HARD, and won. haven't found a single bug since I started cleaning daily and foliar feeding with OGBiowar tea (foliar/root) weekly.

Cha ching! One expensive route to travel. Been there, done that, and for me in my little world, I would not go that route again. The cost and labor was atrocious!

I looked at all options and selected a "synthetic" that did little to zero harm to the microherd (Orthene + Riptide). Some discovered a potential "ph issue" with Orthene at dosage rates 2.3 grams/gallon but eradication is all but guaranteed. The secret is to hit all plants at one time (or within a few days) and then clean, clean, clean everything twice. Contamination is how RAs migrate from container to container (bamboo stakes, tools, old containers, yellow sticky cards, etc--is how the traveled in my world).

There are several threads where I posted the complete routine I developed.

 

[DabSnob]

Cha ching! One expensive route to travel. Been there, done that, and for me in my little world, I would not go that route again. The cost and labor was atrocious!

I looked at all options and selected a "synthetic" that did little to zero harm to the microherd (Orthene + Riptide). Some discovered a potential "ph issue" with Orthene at dosage rates 2.3 grams/gallon but eradication is all but guaranteed. The secret is to hit all plants at one time (or within a few days) and then clean, clean, clean everything twice. Contamination is how RAs migrate from container to container (bamboo stakes, tools, old containers, yellow sticky cards, etc--is how the traveled in my world).

There are several threads where I posted the complete routine I developed.

eclipse,
your method was next on my list if the Botanigard method didnt work. luckily after my 2 week, pain in the ass battle that costs me A TON of money (not denying that one bit) I got rid of them and havent seen them in over a year. Cleanliness and routine inspections have been priority one in my garden since that battle.

 

[Olifant]

There's no way orthene is allowable under i502. Just being on the picol database doesnt mean its acceptable to use. According to the wsda statement only pesticides which have an epa tolerance exemption are allowed with the exception of rooting hormones and some pyrethroids. Spinosad, ome of my staples for thrips which is omri approved doesnt even meet the criteria. Even tissue culture is questionable since the media requires hormones that don't meet the criteria and hormones are classed as pesticides with Wsda. Things like avid and and imid are absolutely against the rules, and with good reason. Movento maybe should be allowable since its approved for hops and grapes but not something I would use personally and is against the rules.

I'm running 20k sq ft of greenhouse in agriculture heavy south central WA where in the environment we have root aphids (and other aphids) carried and herded by ant populations, spider mites, and western flower thrips. I started clean from seed in a brand new op and having come from california didn't realize the immense pest pressure in this area. That said, I have everything under control with .aintenance and preventative sprays and inoculations but I never imagined seeing all this from a clean start grow in the first 6 months. Anyone running a commercial op here needs to be on their toes with proactive ipm practices.

As a production manager for this operation, you have to take responsibility for the product and be willing to tell the owners if a shut down is appropriate. I would finish the crop using the best organic methods to keep them at bay, and burn everything. Any 502 opertation is foolish to not have entered lots of seeds in their first 15 days of no questions asked inventory acquisition or keep a no bullshit mother room isolated from whatever pest problems may arise in the rest of the op. Its easy to blame your predecessor. Effective ipm strategies are hard however and there's no excuse for lying to regulators and putting poison on the shelves, the same with all of you advocating for imidacloprid and avid on flowering plants. Im guessing most of you sell it as medicine. There's absolutely no reason for it and root aphids are absolutely preventable on an indoor op. I work for an op that is in the process of acquiring a 502 permit, and we're seriously considering staying medical after witnessing the absurdity of the 502 market.

 

[VenturaHwy]

This one is for you Olifant.

"root aphids are absolutely preventable on an indoor op"

I am bringing in clones for the first time since I was a kid, back in 1980. I have not had a spider mite in any of my grows since that time. I have a quarantine area I just set up. So the question is this. I can spot spider mites if I quarantine for 6 weeks or so but how easy is it to spot root aphids?

 

[Olifant]

Are the cuttings rooted or not rooted, and how serious is your quarantine? With quarantine, the point is generally to not treat the plants because you want to see what it has. However, root aphids can spread very easily and if you have gaps in your quarantine they can spread. My personal preference is to deal with unrooted cuts as they're easier to treat with prophylactic measures for the main invertebrate pests. If you have a no bullshit quarantine and the cuts are rooted, two months should suffice unless you got them from a nursery or dispensary which could have used a systemic in ways that weren't totally effective. Ive worked at a cannabis nursery and have seen and regrettably have been party to what goes on. After that experience, my personal policy is to never get anything from a nursery or dispensary, especially if its going to an indoor room or greenhouse. I will take cuttings from friends who I knkw what they spray and what problems they have from visiting their op. I know its easier said than done for some folks however. If you do have a cutting from an op of unknown pest problems and unknown sprays and insist on keeping it I would keep it under quarantine for 6 weeks and if it still looks clean, treating heavily with ogbiowar foliar to the root portions with alternating sprays to the aerial portion with ogbiowar foliar, pyrethrin, azadirachtin and Spinosad to control root aphids, mites or thrips that may be present. Also engage in preventative (lower dose) applications of the same or similar products in your main room. If you live in an area where root aphids are native, ants are a big vector as well. I'm sure however that someone else may have an equal or better suggestion. I'm just telling you what I feel is the most precautious way I can think of to go about a process which I feel is risky. Of course, if the plant may have been sprayed already with a synthetic systemic, you may want to go that route.

 

[SirStynkalot]

There's no way orthene is allowable under i502. Just being on the picol database doesnt mean its acceptable to use. According to the wsda statement only pesticides which have an epa tolerance exemption are allowed with the exception of rooting hormones and some pyrethroids. Spinosad, ome of my staples for thrips which is omri approved doesnt even meet the criteria.

This is news to me! I asked the WSDA and they just told me to use the PICOL database. I just double checked the database though and I can't find Spinosad, so I'm assuming they updated the database to take that ruling into account. This list now is much more limited than the one I recall seeing a few months ago.

I couldn't find OGBIOWAR either. Found some bacterial control options but that wasn't one of them. You sure it's on there?

And thanks for your thoughts on treatment. That seems to be pretty much what we're limited to by the database now. Eighty different kinds of neem and pyrethrins, a couple bactillus drenches, and garlic powder.

 

[Backyard Farmer]

One way you guys bound by i502 can fight pests is just to increase the innate ability of the plants to repel those things that predate on them. This is done by getting plants to produce long chain complex carbohydrates and fat , biological advantage , a new line being offered from advancing eco ag tailored to medicinal marijuana will be available in about a month.

PM me and I can forward you to their sales rep

 

[ozza]

Okay guys,

Sorry ive been so snipity. I honestly didnt come here to have a pissing contest, but thats what i turned it into. I will admitt, it is frustrating when looking for help to have so many people rag on me, with knowing little to nothing about my situation outside of my pest issues. I do conceede i flew off the handle over stupid things, but I am under an immense amount of stress to make this sinking ship float across a wide ocean. Im doing the best I can.

So im dumb, or my owner is dumb, or maybe not. That all aside, thanks for all the input. I have further researched into nearly every option mentioned here.

It is looking like we do NOT have RA, but we do have population of red mites and fungas gnats. We will be taking the following actions to rectify:

1st and 2nd watering:
-beauveria bassiana drench

we will also use pyrethrin bombs after these waterings


from there we will asses our situation. We have deceided to take all neem related products out of the rotation for the next little while due to our overuse in the past.


Again, thank you to all who helped, and apologies to everyone I flamed.

Well I said you got spider mite and nematodes, bad nematodes and Granger a senior member gave me bad rep for in coherent posts, just because he said it was RA. Nice fella that one.