New kelp derived paclo

[theother]

Noticed that most of the old paclobuterol boosters are back on the market, but with the paclo derived from kelp. I guess it's not the same Norwegian kelp that has been in nitrozyme this whole time. It's some kind of other kelp that has a higher concentration.

Does anyone have any input on the safety of these products? I know paclo works but the whole yellow bottle, phosphoload pesticide derived paclo is unacceptable.

Was the old danger of liver cancer from the pesticide they where refining the paclo from or is it actually just present in the paclo itself regardless of the source.

Examples of the new paclo products are "humboldt hardener", and "g10"

 

[BubbaBear]

Interesting....Nutrifields Alaska Pure and Heavy 16s Fire are two other kelp based products that have a paclobutrazol like effect on plants. Where did you hear about this kelp based paclo? Sounds like good stuff, youd think refining paclo from kelp would be a hell of a lot safer than paclo refined from pesticides.

 

[dabking]

Interesting....Nutrifields Alaska Pure and Heavy 16s Fire are two other kelp based products that have a paclobutrazol like effect on plants. Where did you hear about this kelp based paclo? Sounds like good stuff, youd think refining paclo from kelp would be a hell of a lot safer than paclo refined from pesticides.

nutrifields Alaska pure has lba3 not palco. Its on the bottle, and a very very knowledgeable rep told me exactly what they use, and what makes them different.

 

[Crooked8]

Intersting, i wonder if its safe? I also wonder if it has the same effect?

 

[BubbaBear]

Ah cool, I've heard of naturally sourced iba3 from "fractionated plant extracts" being used in a few quality enhancing finishing products.

 

[dabking]

Ah cool, I've heard of naturally sourced iba3 from "fractionated plant extracts" being used in a few quality enhancing finishing products.

the Alaska pure is actually for the beginning of flower. Not late. Iba3 causes stretching. Its more for shortening veg time

 

[theother]

Ib3 is about roots right?

No idea if there safer but I have seen a few newer paclo containing products that definitely come from kelp, maybe it always has, I really don't know. One of them that I was looking at is humboldt hardener can't remember what the other was called

 

[Crooked8]

I cant find humboldt hardener online

 

[dabking]

Do you mean Humboldt county G-10?

 

[theother]

My bad, it's mendicino avalanche

 

[BubbaBear]

I was told the magic ingredient in Mendocino Avalanche is chlormequat chloride, l never verified that its just what i was told by a hydro store guy. When you say these new paclo products, do you mean products that advertise to do what paclo type products do like restrict hight and harden flowers or are you talking about products with paclo on the list of ingredients?

 

[BubbaBear]

the Alaska pure is actually for the beginning of flower. Not late. Iba3 causes stretching. Its more for shortening veg time

Alaska pure can definitely be used as a late flower hardener.

 

[theother]

I was told the magic ingredient in Mendocino Avalanche is chlormequat chloride, l never verified that its just what i was told by a hydro store guy. When you say these new paclo products, do you mean products that advertise to do what paclo type products do like restrict hight and harden flowers or are you talking about products with paclo on the list of ingredients?

It's definitely kelp in there, non Norwegian kelp (Norwegian kelp=Nitrozyme). This is definitely different than that, but still kelp I believe.

Chlormequat chloride, interesting, I doubt it very much, but it could be I suppose' would surprise me, that's an intense pgr, it would be SOOO irresponsible to sell that as a late flower hardener that it is hard to believe.

 

[EclipseFour20]

In talking to the formulator of Avalanche, he told me that it is THE FIRST & ONLY product in California that could legally print the words "flower hardener" on its label. He explained there was a big tug a war with the state, and they won. As to all the secret/stealth/voodoo ingredients, hard to say exactly what is in any product now days.

BTW, he suggested dosage rates of Avalanche at 5ml/gallon during the last 3-4 weeks in flower (at every watering), even during the last week--adding a wee bit of Mendocino Honey (new formulation) will add some synergism as well.

 

[DoubleDDsNuggs]

i had some plants in veg and was spraying them with nitrozyme and some overspray fell down on some strawberry plants that had small little berries starting to form and redden. it caused the leaves to fall lifelessly to the ground right away, almost overnight and the strawberry died shortly after. i was so pissed. i just wanted some fresh strawberries in winter so i would not advise it for flowering with that experience.

 

[theother]

i had some plants in veg and was spraying them with nitrozyme and some overspray fell down on some strawberry plants that had small little berries starting to form and redden. it caused the leaves to fall lifelessly to the ground right away, almost overnight and the strawberry died shortly after. i was so pissed. i just wanted some fresh strawberries in winter so i would not advise it for flowering with that experience.

Interesting. You bring strawberry plants from a nursery into your deal?

 

[DoubleDDsNuggs]

no. I dug it out of the garden and washed it's roots, then I put it in rockwool. it grew like crazy and loved it. I know you're not supposed to but in the dead of winter, a lot of stuff doesn't survive I would think and if anything did, the soapy wash I did of the crown and roots I hope would of worked. not like I was advising to do that. interestingly though, there is a collective a few hours away from me that plants veggies underneath their pot plants as IPM system to lure pests away from the girls and instead eat the veggies so they can identify and eliminate problems. you can google him: Farmer Tom's Collective in Vancouver, Wa and look at the Kush Tourism site for info on the tours which talks very briefly about his grow. you have to pay $75 to go see it for the tour. I was just surprised on how quick they turned after the spray and they were blooming. thought someone might be able to use that info for something in regards to blooming pot plants.

 

[theother]

no. I dug it out of the garden and washed it's roots, then I put it in rockwool. it grew like crazy and loved it. I know you're not supposed to but in the dead of winter, a lot of stuff doesn't survive I would think and if anything did, the soapy wash I did of the crown and roots I hope would of worked. not like I was advising to do that. interestingly though, there is a collective a few hours away from me that plants veggies underneath their pot plants as IPM system to lure pests away from the girls and instead eat the veggies so they can identify and eliminate problems. you can google him: Farmer Tom's Collective in Vancouver, Wa and look at the Kush Tourism site for info on the tours which talks very briefly about his grow. you have to pay $75 to go see it for the tour. I was just surprised on how quick they turned after the spray and they were blooming. thought someone might be able to use that info for something in regards to blooming pot plants.

No worries at all, creativity is encouraged. I can promise you though that at some point in the future you will look back on that and cringe . Hard to say why it would make it drop it's fruit and die. I think there is a lot of stuff going on with that Norwegian kelp. I have always understood it to be a gentle version of paclo, not positive that's correct. May be that because it's a gibrelin inhibitor it didn't let them root after it was applied? I have mostly anecdotal experience with paclo. I mostly think of it as a vertical growth inhibitor, but vertical growth is tied to roots also. I don't think I have ever used it, worked in a garden for awhile where they used yellow bottle but that was way way back. I could never get down with the yellow bottle ooze, I felt like I could smell and taste it.

If you exhaust your room at all and it's physically possible you cns dump that heat into a gh. IME it works pretty well for winter food as long as u have somewhat of a southern exposure.

 

[BubbaBear]

I was told the magic ingredient in Mendocino Avalanche is chlormequat chloride, l never verified that its just what i was told by a hydro store guy. When you say these new paclo products, do you mean products that advertise to do what paclo type products do like restrict hight and harden flowers or are you talking about products with paclo on the list of ingredients?

I think the hydro store guy didnt know what he's was talkin about, l found some legit info on Mendocino Avalanche online from the makers, it sounds legit, l no longer think it contains chlormequat chloride. Grow More is to big and reputable of a company to try to hide a ingredient like that, it does sound like its contains natural PGRs from fractionated kelp extracts like you were talking about theother.

Mendocino Avalanche is hard to make comparisons for other nutrients available in the market because it is truly unique. I'll start by saying that because we manufacture our nutrients in CA and we register everything here in CA first; we are bound by the toughest/strictest labeling laws in all the land besides Oregon. With these strict requirements comes along "Claims Made" on the labels that must be substantiated. CDFA had a tug of war going back and forth for over a year to get the claim on the label "Flower Hardener" to be able to stick.*You can look in my photo albums and see that the*CDFA report I got back shows that there is NO carcinogenic PGR's in the mix that Gravity/Bushmaster, PhosphoLoad, etc have in them. In our lab we extract/isolate a few different compounds from our organic seaweed and that's make up the majority of the Avalanche formula.*Within Seaweed is a host of beneficial, naturally occurring hormones and PGR's that are beneficial to plants at various stages of development. Below is a writeup I did for Maximum Yield last year.*"Fortified with Norwegian kelp extract, which supplies organic carbon, amino acids and carbohydrates for use on most flowering plants, hydroponic plants, indoor, outdoor, or field-grown plant. Avalanche is a refined seaweed extract, yet, instead of additional synthetic, carcinogenic hormones, Avalanche purposely contains a small amount of a phosphorus compound. Basically, Mendocino Avalanche helps stimulate the plant to increase its flowering and alone signals a plant to do more of what it is currently doing. If the correct nutrients are present for flower formation, then the plant’s performance will be enhanced (which includes copper and a few other 'secret' hardening compounds). This is why I recommend using Grow More’s Mendocino Honey in conjunction with Avalanche to have a fully synergistic effect between the products and plant"*By using the carbohydrate source in the Mendo Honey it is able to fully feed the processes and microorgainsms within the medium of the plant and organics of the nutrients. Mendocino Avalanche won "Best New Product" at the Sunlight Supply buyers show in Las Vegas last year and it's been more popular over the US ever since and not just a west-coast secret any longer. That sounded like a pitch; i just meant Matter-Of-Fact...Basically it's an organic based bio-stimulant that will not raise the ppm's by barely anything and can be added to any existing fertilizer regimen. It will increase weight and increase the ability to hold physical shape/size after drying and curing. I've also had the experience of noticing less dry plant matter being broken down into 'shake' after it's use. While the other 'Flower-Hardener's' that are on the market I feel decrease quality, Avalanche i can honestly say increases quality and yield by using organics the way the Kreb cycle intended.*I hope that sheds a lil more light on the subject. It's definitely the only product registered that can make the claim "flower hardener" on the label in CA and i think that's nationwide as well...

 

[glow]

I think the hydro store guy didnt know what he's was talkin about, l found some legit info on Mendocino Avalanche online from the makers, it sounds legit, l no longer think it contains chlormequat chloride. Grow More is to big and reputable of a company to try to hide a ingredient like that, it does sound like its contains natural PGRs from fractionated kelp extracts like you were talking about theother.

Mendocino Avalanche is hard to make comparisons for other nutrients available in the market because it is truly unique. I'll start by saying that because we manufacture our nutrients in CA and we register everything here in CA first; we are bound by the toughest/strictest labeling laws in all the land besides Oregon. With these strict requirements comes along "Claims Made" on the labels that must be substantiated. CDFA had a tug of war going back and forth for over a year to get the claim on the label "Flower Hardener" to be able to stick.*You can look in my photo albums and see that the*CDFA report I got back shows that there is NO carcinogenic PGR's in the mix that Gravity/Bushmaster, PhosphoLoad, etc have in them. In our lab we extract/isolate a few different compounds from our organic seaweed and that's make up the majority of the Avalanche formula.*Within Seaweed is a host of beneficial, naturally occurring hormones and PGR's that are beneficial to plants at various stages of development. Below is a writeup I did for Maximum Yield last year.*"Fortified with Norwegian kelp extract, which supplies organic carbon, amino acids and carbohydrates for use on most flowering plants, hydroponic plants, indoor, outdoor, or field-grown plant. Avalanche is a refined seaweed extract, yet, instead of additional synthetic, carcinogenic hormones, Avalanche purposely contains a small amount of a phosphorus compound. Basically, Mendocino Avalanche helps stimulate the plant to increase its flowering and alone signals a plant to do more of what it is currently doing. If the correct nutrients are present for flower formation, then the plant’s performance will be enhanced (which includes copper and a few other 'secret' hardening compounds). This is why I recommend using Grow More’s Mendocino Honey in conjunction with Avalanche to have a fully synergistic effect between the products and plant"*By using the carbohydrate source in the Mendo Honey it is able to fully feed the processes and microorgainsms within the medium of the plant and organics of the nutrients. Mendocino Avalanche won "Best New Product" at the Sunlight Supply buyers show in Las Vegas last year and it's been more popular over the US ever since and not just a west-coast secret any longer. That sounded like a pitch; i just meant Matter-Of-Fact...Basically it's an organic based bio-stimulant that will not raise the ppm's by barely anything and can be added to any existing fertilizer regimen. It will increase weight and increase the ability to hold physical shape/size after drying and curing. I've also had the experience of noticing less dry plant matter being broken down into 'shake' after it's use. While the other 'Flower-Hardener's' that are on the market I feel decrease quality, Avalanche i can honestly say increases quality and yield by using organics the way the Kreb cycle intended.*I hope that sheds a lil more light on the subject. It's definitely the only product registered that can make the claim "flower hardener" on the label in CA and i think that's nationwide as well...

BubbaBear I've had a lot to do with the CDFA and the ODA - I was the guy that set off the alarm bells re PBZ and Alar containing products through writing some material on them. Long story short the CDFA contacted me and I pointed them in the right direction re what products to test and what to test for. This said, safe to say that the Paclo products are still very much available in Ca and Oregon. In fact, speaking to the Werc Shop the other day I was informed that 15% of the med they test tests positive for pesticides. Of this 15%, 50% is PBZ. Let me also correct a few things you've said. Firstly, about 50% of the organic pesticides and/or fungicides they tested in Europe were found to be carcinogenic and subsequently banned - so let's not assume that because something is organic it is safe. Secondly, Phosphoload, Flower Dragon and all the other chem PGR products that were yanked from the Ca and Oregon markets were all registered with the CDFA and ODA. It is a simple case of not declaring what is in these products and instead wanking on about humatic isolates, kelp extracts etc. The other thing is, that even if the CDFA and ODA do run PGR tests they can easily miss the chemical PGR if it is not tested for. For example, during the Flower Dragon and Phosphoload fiasco when Bushmaster etc got pulled they only tested for 9 chemical PGRS when there are actually over a 100. Bottom line it is as easy as hell to pass off a chemical PGR containing product and fly it under the radar because there are numerous PGRs that aren't being tested for. So for instance, there are a couple of very popular bloom boosters out there that patently contain PGRs and they came up clean during the CDFA sweep. What it really comes down to is that any product that changes the natural physiological processes (growth) of a plant is a PGR. It is a case of whether that PGR poses a health risk to the end user (organic or inorganic it doesn't really matter because organics can be every bit as toxic if not more so than synthetic chemicals). Mate, I'm a very experienced nutrient formulator with a very good handle on chemistry and molec bio and having looked at numerous kelp products from around the globe and having trialled these products none of them act anything like PBZ.

Re this: "Fortified with Norwegian kelp extract, which supplies organic carbon, amino acids and carbohydrates for use on most flowering plants, hydroponic plants, indoor, outdoor, or field-grown plant. Avalanche is a refined seaweed extract, yet, instead of additional synthetic, carcinogenic hormones, Avalanche purposely contains a small amount of a phosphorus compound."

Sounds familiar.

And none of these compounds/molecules would act like a PGR. BTW - what's the phosphorus compound? I mean all of this sounds impressive to the uninformed but to me it sounds all too familiar.