Curious on how many switched back

[packerfan79]

I have never even come close to a gpw in a flat grow.I don't remember exactly what my Las flat grow was about 2.5 # from 2k. Jump to vert and I got 3.5 # from the same 2k. Probably could have hit 4# if I ran bare bulb.I don't think anyone is hitting 1 gpw with out serious training. If you run 4 plants per sq. Ft. Sog style probably the easiest way if you don't care about federal mandatory minimums. Mabey if you run big bud or some other high yeilding strain. Them problem with that is that those strains tend to be low Thc. You won't hit numbers like that with most ogs. Sure you got a pile of nugs problem is good luck getting rid of

 

[papaduc]

LSWM, Like I say, I'm crunching the numbers, making comparisons, fairly and honestly. I know you prefer vert, but are you being genuinely honest in your assessments of the numbers here? And do they stack up with the premise on which you are basing your argument?

Think about what you just said, for example.

You say there are buds top and bottom, but on mine only bottom.

Is that a fair assessment in itself? Or are there more factors which mean it is not as simple as that?

If you use that one factor to decide the result, how accurate can it be?

Look at the vert grow again. Look at the spacing of the bulbs.

At a rough estimate, how much surface area does each bulb take care of? To me it looks like about 60cm2 at most before the next bulb's spot is overlapping.

Then, look at the size of the buds on the screen and tell me how far out you think each one stretches. Again, have a rough estimate of how much each bud in that screen will yield.

Then double it, because like you say, there's a top and bottom.

What's your estimate?

Now, look at my one underneath again. That's just one bulb for the whole space, which is a meter long. I was in a cramped space for that, because I could do 1.2m x 1.2m with that same bulb and reflector (grostars kick ass btw)

So, one question: When you factor in each bud size on the screen, plus the coverage per bulb, do you think the vert yields more per bulb in that setup?

Yea or nay?

 

[papaduc]

I have never even come close to a gpw in a flat grow.I don't remember exactly what my Las flat grow was about 2.5 # from 2k. Jump to vert and I got 3.5 # from the same 2k. Probably could have hit 4# if I ran bare bulb.I don't think anyone is hitting 1 gpw with out serious training. If you run 4 plants per sq. Ft. Sog style probably the easiest way if you don't care about federal mandatory minimums. Mabey if you run big bud or some other high yeilding strain. Them problem with that is that those strains tend to be low Thc. You won't hit numbers like that with most ogs. Sure you got a pile of nugs problem is good luck getting rid of

That canopy above is mostly OGs

Plus, it's these anecdotes which make flat look bad.
The truth is, the numbers in your post say you're hitting 0.5gpw. Which is not the fault of horizontal per se, and plant numbers or commercial strains don't even factor in.

That's the equivalent of pulling 10oz from a 600w bulb.

The minimum you should be doing with OGs, little training, and low plant numbers, is 14-15oz.

Again though, we're left with the end figures which say you're now doing 3.5, or 56oz per 2k. Which is 28oz per 1000w...

And this is why I think this thread is so good, because you might read an anecdote like that and think `yea, vert smashes horizontal`... but when you break it down what you're left with is....

0.7gpw.

Which is an easily achievable target for a horizontal grow.

 

[LSWM]

So, one question: When you factor in each bud size on the screen, plus the coverage per bulb, do you think the vert yields more per bulb in that setup?

Yea or nay?

It's really hard to say without getting the actual numbers. Here's the shot of the pots/stalks. I do not necessarily think so. I do however think that room may yield more with this setup than with as much horizontal trays as you could fit.

My last point was simply about space usage. In your 4x4 (1.2x1.2m) space assuming height was no issue you could put 2 1k's in there and cover 75 sqft instead of 16. Of course 1 foot all the way around isn't much room to work with, but I wonder how you got to working with those plants in the back corner without having access all around anyways...

I'm not saying vert necessarily yields better PER BULB than horizontal, but as you already said, the ceiling seems to be higher with vert. but also requires lots of work.

 

[papaduc]

Ha, I forgot to say, there was another canopy on a shelf directly above that. I wish I'd have got pictures of them both at the same time. Because I was stuck for space, I grew two like that on top of each other.

Don't rule out the possibility to stack flat grows brother

* Sorry, with regards to how I worked with the plants, I just took them out. None of that was on a screen. Just pinching. This is a big factor for me in the vert vs hor debate. Because when I grow vertical in a tight space, I find I have to trellis, or at least tie them to wires. Even if they are individually trellised, it's still a bit of a pain in the ass to move them once they're big.

* Anyway, like you say, it's hard to say which setup yields more per bulb. I know it would possibly be close.

But... you then have to factor in the setup, which, for that vert, looks like a pretty big job, and, because of the style of grow, lots and lots of little clones, so plant numbers are very high in a setup like that.

My grow I had two jobs to do, defoliate them twice, and pinch them occasionally. Other than that they got put in pots and went in.

 

[LSWM]

Ha, I forgot to say, there was another canopy on a shelf directly above that. I wish I'd have got pictures of them both at the same time. Because I was stuck for space, I grew two like that on top of each other.

Sounds hairy. I have always had ample head room for my horizontal grows. Being limited due to the tray above sounds sketchy. Also, dealing with runoff above a lamp... Sounds really sketchy.

Then again I guess some people have similar fears about running bare bulbs.

 

[siftedunity]

I did but really it doesn't matter. You were the one asking for pics, I was just turning it around on you.

Sorry for the runaround bud. Let's grow some dank!

I didn't ask you for pics, I saw your thread. im pretty sure you can see what kinda results I get running horizontal. id love to yield more.. if someone could offer up a better method id go for it, but even when I look through the vert thread, they don't yielder much better than most except big trees. and they get big eitherway.

 

[siftedunity]

yes but if this is the case , you and everyone else growing vert should be yielding double the amount as everyone else

 

[papaduc]

Sounds hairy. I have always had ample head room for my horizontal grows. Being limited due to the tray above sounds sketchy. Also, dealing with runoff above a lamp... Sounds really sketchy.

Then again I guess some people have similar fears about running bare bulbs.

It's not perfect. But in cupboard which measured just over 1m wide by x 80cm deep, I did 2x600s.

I told a lie in that last post as well. The top one was actually vertical, not another canopy. That was my idea, that I'd do the bottom flat and vent the heat through the center of the top doughnut.

What I found in a small space like that without room either side of the bulb, is that it was easier to pull good yields from the flat canopy than the vert, and a lot less work.

If you need to, or have no other option, you can stack flat grows, or even do flat bottoms and vert tops, like I did.

One thing you should invest in though when growing vert is eye protection. That's my best advice. Even the occasional glance at the bulb will damage your eyes over time. Get some decent specs.

Whatever way people decide to grow, one thing I've found since growing both ways for a while, is that there isn't anywhere near as much, if anything in it as I think a lot of people believe.

 

[siftedunity]

I have never even come close to a gpw in a flat grow.I don't remember exactly what my Las flat grow was about 2.5 # from 2k. Jump to vert and I got 3.5 # from the same 2k. Probably could have hit 4# if I ran bare bulb.I don't think anyone is hitting 1 gpw with out serious training. If you run 4 plants per sq. Ft. Sog style probably the easiest way if you don't care about federal mandatory minimums. Mabey if you run big bud or some other high yeilding strain. Them problem with that is that those strains tend to be low Thc. You won't hit numbers like that with most ogs. Sure you got a pile of nugs problem is good luck getting rid of

man I run 5 plants per light and run elites of different types. I wouldn't touch big bud or the like with a 10ft pole. and I don't train that much and use horizontal lighting.
If you didn't do well with it, it might just be your methods, sog ive never even tried. although I can see it probably yielding better than scrog.

 

[DrFever]

So in reality Vertical systems came about from suppliers making 80 plant 160 , 200 plant vertical systems The whole concept of the vertical growing system hinges on that fact that the grower is able to pull more yield per light than if they were growing horizontally. which apparently has become an issue when actually using science and actual pulls from vert 600, 1000 and horizontal 600 and 1000 grows
And scrolling through some Vert journals it appears that Vert even running more plant count,,, per light are in reality still falling below And some are killing it . some ridiculous claims are mentioned ??? who knows maybe there to embarrassed to admit it as they got lured or they vertical works for there situation
So now were here figuring what is what ...
Running Vert means running more plants the actual vertical grow was like i mentioned them 140 plant 200 plant placed in machine and put in flower after 2 - 3 days veg right ???
http://www.jardindufutur.com/products.html

Without wanting to piss on anyone’s campfire, whenever you’ve got a grow on the go, it’s always worth having a little think about the worst case scenario.... what if the door comes in? If you’ve got 140- 200 plants in this ecosystem , it’s pretty cut and dry that you’re going to get the ‘book thrown at you’ (and you’re probably well aware of that). If you've got eight big plants under two lights, you’ve got a pretty good case to argue that you’re growing for yourself. How would the cops view 140 - 200 plants grown under two lights? I’m no legal expert, but if the long arm of the law intends to clamp down on growers depending on plant numbers only... I reckon you’d be some ones Biatch
And lets not forget the the clones coming behind this grow ,,,, now if our buyin them??? well there is a added expense , 60 plants 160- 200 plants ??? 5 - 10 bucks a plant , or if your cloneing your self the added expense of keeping mothers and another light so again electricity increases let alone the work involved sounds tiring to me already thought this as suppose to be fun Trust me its not when i did 200 + plant grows it was a faking nightmare Fulltime job it takes a lot out of you
at the end of the day you end up with anywheres from 120 plants ones in flower and rooted clones there considered a plant by the law sucks i know or 280 plants , 400 plants pending on what system your using And where i come from its mandatory 5 years min for 200 plants with new laws its 10 year mandatory you get 5 for first time and thats 5 real years no parole

As for claims again there mentioning 1 0z plants from clones lol yet i have read a journal from a reg member on here who grows always from clone straight to flower and said from clone you should be talking dry grams per plant not oz
So who do you believe practical or BS ??? again this is my guess why most long time vert growers are steering away from this thread

Either Way truth be known i am doing some investigating and will pull journals from vert growers and post on here how many plants strain and also search for a close match in plant numbers same strain thru the vast marijuana forums we have on the net and compare yields .... So if your journal comes up on here please dont be offended as its being compared to other growers growing horizontal as per final yields

 

[Fly by Night]

Switch back?

Switch back?

 

[Sqydro]

Either Way truth be known i am doing some investigating and will pull journals from vert growers and post on here how many plants strain and also search for a close match in plant numbers same strain thru the vast marijuana forums we have on the net and compare yields .... So if your journal comes up on here please dont be offended as its being compared to other growers growing horizontal as per final yields

will that not bring in inconclusive results the doc? as would need to be same cut same set up and same method/wattage etc for there to be any clear cut comparables? be good to see a side by side to put it to rest

 

[papaduc]

There's no point pulling up other journals to compare because it won't prove or disprove anything.

My point here isn't that horizontal is better than vert, but that neither method is conclusively better than the other and a lot will depend on the grower, the situation, and the strain.

It's a misconception to think vert is better than horizontal for yields. But it's a misconception to think the other way as well. Both methods can be tweaked to outdo each other and both will do better or worse in different situations.

My point from the get go on this has been that it's become a myth that vert yields more. Not to say that vert is no good, or not as good. With the right strain, or given the right situation, it's a great way to grow and every bit as good or, in some cases, better than horizontal. But the same can be said the other way around as well.

In a nutshell, make your decision based on other factors than yield, because the truth of it all is, when both methods are done right, the yields will be pretty much the same.

 

[Purple turtle]

There's no point pulling up other journals to compare because it won't prove or disprove anything.

My point here isn't that horizontal is better than vert, but that neither method is conclusively better than the other and a lot will depend on the grower, the situation, and the strain.

It's a misconception to think vert is better than horizontal for yields. But it's a misconception to think the other way as well. Both methods can be tweaked to outdo each other and both will do better or worse in different situations.

My point from the get go on this has been that it's become a myth that vert yields more. Not to say that vert is no good, or not as good. With the right strain, or given the right situation, it's a great way to grow and every bit as good or, in some cases, better than horizontal. But the same can be said the other way around as well.

In a nutshell, make your decision based on other factors than yield, because the truth of it all is, when both methods are done right, the yields will be pretty much the same.

AMEN,brother!

 

[paper thorn]

I've done both , but prefer horizontal because I don't like killing my eyes, or wearing welding goggles in the grow room.

 

[LSWM]

What I found in a small space like that without room either side of the bulb, is that it was easier to pull good yields from the flat canopy than the vert, and a lot less work.

My point here isn't that horizontal is better than vert, but that neither method is conclusively better than the other and a lot will depend on the grower, the situation, and the strain.

It's a misconception to think vert is better than horizontal for yields. But it's a misconception to think the other way as well. Both methods can be tweaked to outdo each other and both will do better or worse in different situations.

My point from the get go on this has been that it's become a myth that vert yields more. Not to say that vert is no good, or not as good. With the right strain, or given the right situation, it's a great way to grow and every bit as good or, in some cases, better than horizontal. But the same can be said the other way around as well.

In a nutshell, make your decision based on other factors than yield, because the truth of it all is, when both methods are done right, the yields will be pretty much the same.

I agree with all of the above. One thing you left out was plant count. Vert trees definitely have that advantage. 2 plant donuts like Ttystikk is running do as well.

I personally prefer working around cages than working under a large hood over a 4x4 tray.

Also the cost per tray/hood/bulb/ballast goes down significantly with Vert. I can hang a 1k bulb, brand new ballast, with mogul socket for ~$150. No way I am going to get a decent hood for less than $100. So if initial investment is an issue, you could essentially run 4 Vert setups for the price of 2.5-3 horizontal setups. Even if you yield 1/4 less from each vert setup, if you have the space, the vert will more than pay for itself in one run. And you will have an entire extra light.

Also, I find it much easier to cool barebulbs than reflectors. The heat is literally taken away with the air. With a reflector you need to cool the reflector somehow as it traps heat. Air cooled reflectors solve this, but then now you are putting glass between your bulb and your plants, making the light even more inefficient.

 

[LSWM]

I think an important factor here is strain. If you are running kushes which don't stretch AT ALL. Good luck yielding well vert. SOG will be king here no matter what. If you are running hybrids with good stretch, they can be impossible/extremely hard to contain evenly in a horizontal grow.

Then you have super branchy strains, which in a horizontal grow fill in the screen better, but in a vert grow crowd the shit out of your screen, simply due to where the light is hitting them. When you throw a branchy strain on a vert screen they explode and crowd each other out. When you have a light over them horizontally they tend to grow more toward their apical tips causing less fluff with less work. You can certainly get branchy strains to work well in Vert but you will be working you ass off constantly trimming of nodes to keep the growth where you want it.

This Sour Skunk Haze I'm pulling in ~10 days is a good example of that. It took 4 defoliations total. One in the last week of veg and 2 more in early flower, as well as a final one to take off the rest of the fans. I could even pull more fans from her at this point, but there isn't much crowding due to extra foliage so I said fuck it.

 

[DrFever]

I agree with all of the above. One thing you left out was plant count. Vert trees definitely have that advantage. 2 plant donuts like Ttystikk is running do as well.

I personally prefer working around cages than working under a large hood over a 4x4 tray.

Also the cost per tray/hood/bulb/ballast goes down significantly with Vert. I can hang a 1k bulb, brand new ballast, with mogul socket for ~$150. No way I am going to get a decent hood for less than $100. So if initial investment is an issue, you could essentially run 4 Vert setups for the price of 2.5-3 horizontal setups. Even if you yield 1/4 less from each vert setup, if you have the space, the vert will more than pay for itself in one run. And you will have an entire extra light.

Also, I find it much easier to cool barebulbs than reflectors. The heat is literally taken away with the air. With a reflector you need to cool the reflector somehow as it traps heat. Air cooled reflectors solve this, but then now you are putting glass between your bulb and your plants, making the light even more inefficient.

YA right no matter what 1000 watters 600 watters produce heat right many tent growers even growin vert style in a 4 x 4 x 7 tent will have heat issues both ways do you not agree
to say one way costs less again this is miss leading there are hundreds of lights out there kits etc 1000 watts hell i get 1000 watts ballast open reflector for 120.00 bucks bulb included stick it in a room plug it in open a window and your good buts lets be realistic here most growers do not have rooms but rather little spaces tents attics what ever
the air does not take away the heat in any set up what does is exhaust fans I know cause i run C02 and can see how fast room temps increase at a rapid rate when there is no air exchange doesnt matter horizontal or vertical heat is heat
Now depending on the CFM of fans hell i could put 10,000 watts in a 8x8 room and maintain 76 degrees with my 4000 watts of exhaust fans replacing room air every minute even less then
Now trust me i have been scrolling many Vert grows and read answers and questions from jedi growers both sides of the street
many top end vert growers will grow horizontal in veg and why is that ??? better growth rates must be a reason behind that right ???? then switch to vert mid way veg or flower
to say that either is better to work in again is miss leading many growers even tho there working a canopy in a 4x4 or any other area do not just have that area to work in right that is just the canopy work area
you mention 2 plant vert trees again one must factor in how long it vegged factor in other variables more or less like pab is doing to get real numbers
for instance many growers ae hiting 2 grams per watt horizonal 600 watts thousands of growers are hitting over gram to even 1.5 grams per watt i am hitting 1160 dry grams per 1000 watt
THe reality is from what i am seeing in vertical growing the magic number .85 to .87 grams per watt and thats a fact

you also mention Air cooled reflectors solve this, but then now you are putting glass between your bulb and your plants, making the light even more inefficient.[/QUOTE]
You are wrong believe it or not you lose 30 percent + light efficiency when going aircooled

ike saying no need for a thermostat in a engine well sure the engine will run does not mean it will be at peak operating range for best torque / and horsepower what you have is a engine never reaching operating range thus fuel costs go up performance drops yea get it

 

[DrFever]

And i also like to note that its being said that its more efficient having light 360 degrees thus making them donuts placing plants around the light one can easily argue that even tho it looks good on paper practical is telling us that hmm may be it s not specially with the yield findings it is telling us that maybe its not the way to go
Common sense is common sense and with all the hype of vertical coliseum, donut growing and if it was actual then it would be a clear cut vertical is killing horizontal in every aspect and the truth is its not hell vert is not new it goes way back already and yet thousands are struggling to even get to .87 that magic number should not vertical be already out doing horizontal 2 - 1 for instance if everyone is claiming its so much better then why do we not see the numbers to prove it actually is better and so far from my findings its far from better
yup 360 degrees of light also means 360 degrees of less par
So yea going thru vertical journals i am seeing the magic number @ .85- .87 grams per watt Also seeing there using any other excuse other then actually blaming running vertical from root aphids to mites never once saying and being open minded that it might of been running light vertical