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MH vs HPS for yield?

mh does put out less lumens then hps.The thing is lumen numbers have nothing to do with plant growth.Light intensity in regards to plant grow is measured by PAR

In the same way fat provides the most efficient calories for humans, red light provides the most efficient food for plants. However, a plant illuminated only with red or orange light will fail to develop sufficient bulk. Leafy growth (vegetative growth) and bulk also require blue light. Many other complex processes are triggered by light required from different regions of the spectrum. The correct portion of the spectrum varies from species to species. However, the quantity of light needed for plant growth and health can be measured, assuming that all portions of the spectrum are adequately covered. Light for plants cannot, however, be measured with the same standards used to measure light for humans. Some basic definitions and distinctions follow that are useful in determining appropriate ways to measure the quantity of light for hydroponic plant growth.

Watts is an objective measure of energy being used or emitted by a lamp each second. Energy itself is measured in joules, and 1 joule per second is called a watt. A 100 watt incandescent bulb uses up 100 joules of electrical energy every second. How much light energy is it generating? About 6 joules per second or 6 watts, but the efficiency of the lamp is only 6%, a rather dismal number. The rest of the energy is dissipated mainly as heat. Modern discharge lamps like high pressure sodium (HPS) and metal halide convert (typically) 30% to 40% of the electrical energy into light. They are significantly more efficient than incandescent bulbs.

Since plants use energy between 400 and 700 nanometers and light in this region is called Photosynthetically Active Radiation or PAR, we could measure the total amount of energy emitted per second in this region and call it PAR watts. This is an objective measure in contrast to lumens which is a subjective measure since it is based on the response of the subjects (humans). PAR watts directly indicate how much light energy is available for plants to use in photosynthesis.

The output of a 400 watt incandescent bulb is about 25 watts of light, a 400 watt metal halide bulb emits about 140 watts of light. If PAR is considered to correspond more or less to the visible region, then a 400 watt metal halide lamp provides about 140 watts of PAR. A 400 watt HPS lamps has less PAR, typically 120 to 128 watts, but because the light is yellow it is rated at higher lumens (for the human eye).

"Illumination" for plants is measured in PAR watts per square meter. There is no specific name for this unit but it is referred to as "irradiance" and written, for example, as 25 watts/square meter or 25 w/m2.

Plants "see" light differently than human beings do. As a result, lumens, lux or footcandles should not be used to measure light for plant growth since they are measures used for human visibility. More correct measures for plants are PAR watts, PPF PAR and YPF PAR, although each in itself does not tell the whole story. In addition to quantity of light, considerations of quality are important, since plants use energy in different parts of the spectrum for critical processes.

Interesting read.Been reading since i saw this thread.
 

the gnome

Active member
Veteran
Plants "see" light differently than human beings do. As a result, lumens, lux or footcandles should not be used to measure light for plant growth since they are measures used for human visibility.es.


thank you and spot on tokersmoke

in my MH vs HPS thread in this forum dr shio mentions the same thing
Check out Sunmaster Warm Deluxe (3000k MH) or the Sunpulse 3k. You get the best of both worlds IMO. I use a mix of Warm Deluxes and Cool Deluxes.

I believe the use of HPS stems from outdated lore. People started using them when indoor growing first started because they had the highest output of any bulb available, in the best spectrum (metal halides were junk). The metal halide technology has progressed considerably since then and has far surpassed the HPS.

People think that stretch happens during flower because they switch their plants from MH to HPS and their plants freak out because the HPS lacks so much spectrum. What the plants are really doing is trying to find the light (even though HPS provides a lot of light, it is not in the right spectrum the plant wants).

But here is the reality:

[/b]Each plant is bred a certain way and has genetic predispositions. Therefore the light the plant wants will highly depend on its breeder and genetics. If the breeder selected for largest yield using only HPS, then the plant will likely do best in all HPS. This is the same for fertiization - if the breeder selected for which plant thrived most using synthetics, it will perform best with synthetics - if the breeder used organics, it will perform best with organics.[/b]

EDIT: Also, I think that dual-arc bulbs are a sham - you only get a 600W HPS and a 400W MH in a bulb - now place that at 1000W distance (due to 1000W heat) and the light hitting the plants is WEAK. Its like using a 400W MH next to a 600W HPS 18-24in from the plant, not okay.
here's vapedg13's MH grows
113.jpg

IMG_1716-1.jpg
 
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tech138

Member
Excellent thread. Lots of knowledge and experience along with some informative pictures. I thought I would share a method I used when I still used HID lights. ( I use fluorescent lighting now, long story) I used MH for vegging, then added an equal amount of HPS for floral induction. I potted up prior to the flip, which spaced the containers out just right for the increased light. I found that using both lights provided excellent plant structure and heavy flower production. I never did a thorough comparison, but the buds from the mixed spectrum grows had incredible form and density compared to other methods I tried. Just thought I would share my :2cents:
 

nukklehead

Active member
Damn gnome you are killing it by those pics...

Do you hand water each of those bitches??? ( couldnt tell by pics)

Will take your advice and next run gonna try the 4k MH..

Thanks for your input

Nukklehead
 

Mustafunk

Brand new oldschool
Veteran
Great input guys... what I'm planning to use is MH 4000K combined with some red led pannels (625+660nm only), that has to be fire! Best of both worlds! ;)

Vibes.
 

the gnome

Active member
Veteran
Damn gnome you are killing it by those pics...

Do you hand water each of those bitches??? ( couldnt tell by pics)

Will take your advice and next run gonna try the 4k MH..

Thanks for your input

Nukklehead
the pics with the para hood is vapedg13's gro, those plants are in 6.5liter pots, less than 2 gallon and he get 5z per.
check out the link to my thread mh vs hps
it has a lot of good info,
mostly the 15 pages before the flaming starts.


Ive said this many times. how well a plant performs under a Mh is strain dependent.
and on the flip side of that is I would say it goes for HPS too.
thinking about the strain that got me going with MH,
i was happy with it under hps,
BUT
under mh it excelled.
so that makes me wonder how many plants that didn't yield well under hps would have been bomb with mh.
i started experimenting with mh using my veg halides, hi end blues 6400K, 7500K but the yield was terrible but nugz were as frosty as always
when i went to the sylvania 1000w BT56 4000K bulb yield went way up,
and TBH i have way more strains doing very good under it than not.

btw
not trying to say one bulb is better than the other,
but MH will kill it over hps on some strains as will hps over MH on certain strains.

I've been going with the $21 mh bulb and doubt I'll be paying for $100 hps horti eyes again.
the pros out number the cons going with Mh ime.
i get very little stretch,
the $21 price makes it easy to replace bulbs every run if needed,
halides run cooler than HPS
plus no more of that wretched orange light to deal with:D
looking at the sylv 1000w BT56 4000K,
its not blue... its yellowish like natural sunlight
the closest Ive seen to the sun of any HID lamp so far.

the proof is in the pics :smoke:
 

nukklehead

Active member
the pics with the para hood is vapedg13's gro, those plants are in 6.5liter pots, less than 2 gallon and he get 5z per.
check out the link to my thread mh vs hps
it has a lot of good info,
mostly the 15 pages before the flaming starts.


Ive said this many times. how well a plant performs under a Mh is strain dependent.
and on the flip side of that is I would say it goes for HPS too.
thinking about the strain that got me going with MH,
i was happy with it under hps,
BUT
under mh it excelled.
so that makes me wonder how many plants that didn't yield well under hps would have been bomb with mh.
i started experimenting with mh using my veg halides, hi end blues 6400K, 7500K but the yield was terrible but nugz were as frosty as always
when i went to the sylvania 1000w BT56 4000K bulb yield went way up,
and TBH i have way more strains doing very good under it than not.

btw
not trying to say one bulb is better than the other,
but MH will kill it over hps on some strains as will hps over MH on certain strains.

I've been going with the $21 mh bulb and doubt I'll be paying for $100 hps horti eyes again.
the pros out number the cons going with Mh ime.
i get very little stretch,
the $21 price makes it easy to replace bulbs every run if needed,
halides run cooler than HPS
plus no more of that wretched orange light to deal with:D
looking at the sylv 1000w BT56 4000K,
its not blue... its yellowish like natural sunlight
the closest Ive seen to the sun of any HID lamp so far.

the proof is in the pics :smoke:

Yes I have read most of your posts and all 15 pages..
I have always run horti's but mine is getting old so gonna
try your route.. for 20$ what the hell..

I agree with you that strain dependency has a lot to do
with outcome regarding lighting AND nutrients.

Our little princess plants have a lot of cousins and all
of them dont like to play the same way..

Peace

Nukklehead
 

Greeco

Member
interesting thread. I always heard that a mix of the two will yield the best but I have never played with it to say any real input. Some scientist suggest running 250W MH for every 1K hps.
 
Interesting comments about strain dependancy.Im not sure i buy that light spectrum affects different strains.I have three strains going now that def benefited from the added spectrum.

As discussed red,orange,spectrum is the brightest to the human eye..Plants respond and see light differently then us.Geographically under natural sun all landrace strains of cannabis receive the same spectrum.

Are we therefore claiming that plants have adapted to indoor cultivation under artificial lighting?Just something that came into my mind after reading comments.
 

the gnome

Active member
Veteran
I'm curious to see what the new dual arc bulbs can do...

Dr Shio's quote on post #42
Also, I think that dual-arc bulbs are a sham - you only get a 600W HPS and a 400W MH in a bulb - now place that at 1000W distance (due to 1000W heat) and the light hitting the plants is WEAK. Its like using a 400W MH next to a 600W HPS 18-24in from the plant, not okay.
food for thought...


Interesting comments about strain dependancy.Im not sure i buy that light spectrum affects different strains.I have three strains going now that def benefited from the added spectrum.

As discussed red,orange,spectrum is the brightest to the human eye..Plants respond and see light differently then us.Geographically under natural sun all landrace strains of cannabis receive the same spectrum.

Are we therefore claiming that plants have adapted to indoor cultivation under artificial lighting?Just something that came into my mind after reading comments.

excellent point tokersmoke, this is something ive gone into in another thread.
HPS spectrum if very beneficial for some plants like begonias for instance, its a proven fact.

since the 80s indoor growers started using HPS,
MH technology was crap so all indoor canabis has been bred since then under hps and adapted to it,
BUT
even though is been adapted to the hps spectrum
canna's genetic *want* for the sun's lite after being grown for 1000's of years under it is still very much in the plants genetic makeup

It's kinda like tigers/big cats,
even tho some have been bred in captivity all they're life and interact with humans, as pets in some cases or as show animals. BUT gain...they're true and natural genetic instincts is just below the surface and the people that work with big cats know this or should.... and for the people that have them as pets sometimes think these big cat truly love them and wouldn't hurt them...
well many have learned a hard lesson with they're life.

dr shio's post seems to make a lot of sense..

I believe the use of HPS stems from outdated lore. People started using them when indoor growing first started because they had the highest output of any bulb available, in the best spectrum (metal halides were junk). The metal halide technology has progressed considerably since then and has far surpassed the HPS.

People think that stretch happens during flower because they switch their plants from MH to HPS and their plants freak out because the HPS lacks so much spectrum. What the plants are really doing is trying to find the light (even though HPS provides a lot of light, it is not in the right spectrum the plant wants).

But here is the reality:

Each plant is bred a certain way and has genetic predispositions. Therefore the light the plant wants will highly depend on its breeder and genetics. If the breeder selected for largest yield using only HPS, then the plant will likely do best in all HPS. This is the same for fertiization - if the breeder selected for which plant thrived most using synthetics, it will perform best with synthetics - if the breeder used organics, it will perform best with organics.

EDIT: Also, I think that dual-arc bulbs are a sham - you only get a 600W HPS and a 400W MH in a bulb - now place that at 1000W distance (due to 1000W heat) and the light hitting the plants is WEAK. Its like using a 400W MH next to a 600W HPS 18-24in from the plant, not okay.[/quote]

.[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
 
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Not discrediting anyone my personal opinion is that cannabis has not adapted to indoor lighting.I think the plants do everything they can to deal with the spectrum of indoor lighting.Hps lights are no where near the natural spectrum.

I bet if i could procure a seed or clone from a landrace strain it would grow the same as the indoor strains that have been bred under lights since the 80s.Just my thoughts i have no proof or experiments.
 

the gnome

Active member
Veteran
intresting take and I'm in that line of thinking myself toker.
inho I don't think HPS is natural for cannabis but it has been bred and adapted to it quite well.
on the flip side you can take these strain and gro them in the sun and they go nuts so it would seem 4000K range halides
spectrum which looks more like sunlight than any other HID lamp Ive seen would be more usable by the plants.

it would be nice to know how the strains from breeders reacted initially when they started using hps.
an other thing Ive thought on is how long, if at all, strains that favor/excel with HPS would take to re-adapt to a 4000K halide
seeing how they take to sunlight right away :chin:
.
 
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Hmong

Well-known member
Veteran
awesome thread so far :good:

the discussions gave me a lot to think about.
a few interesting interesing points came up


  • Ive said this many times. how well a plant performs under a Mh is strain dependet


  • is there any rule of thumb ( generally speaking) regarding strains.. i.e... indica dominant vs sativa dominant vs hybrid vs.geographically where the mother strain came from that perform
    best under mh vs hps??
  • Im not sure i buy that light spectrum affects different strains.I have three strains going now that def benefited from the added spectrum...
    ...Plants respond and see light differently then us.Geographically under natural sun all landrace strains of cannabis receive the same spectrum.
  • I think the plants do everything they can to deal with the spectrum of indoor lighting.Hps lights are no where near the natural spectrum.
  • spectrum which looks more like sunlight than any other HIDhttps://www.icmag.com/ic/vbglossar.php?do=showentry&item=HID lamp Ive seen would be more usable by the plants.
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]s[/FONT]


so to me all that mixed in my stoner head means that the gnome is right. Its just so obvious. imitating the sun as best as possible will give the best results thouh. so if natural light temperature changes from 2000 to 6500 till dusk and noon and then back again, the 4000K which is about in the middle seems quite optimal use. But why shouldn we can also draw a conclusion from the changing lighttemps during day and also try to simulate them?
Also create sunrise and dawn indoors via a changing spectrum/ligh temps.
So the dual bulb emits both spectrums or is just both lamps, but with the disadvantage of less lumens/W and much more heat.
I have no own experience, I just use the info from this thread so far.


So my idea is simply to use two reflektors in parallel with a lightrail to ensure even penetration. So in my example a 400W HPS + 600W MH would be one light. I would always choose 600W over 1000W because its more effizient two different. Which simply is because more lumens(light)/W = less heat/W ;)

Together with the lightrail I would be able to reduce the light distance furthermore over the 1000W. Also I would need less bulbs for the same area so in the end lightrail might even be a cost saver.


The main key are the two parallel lamp system. this way you are able to use the benefit from the dual arc without any heat issue. By simply hanging the 400W bulb even lower than the 600W you won't loose on efficiency and light penetration but safe power because of the smaller wattage.


The idea is to simulate sunrise and dawn each day, so e.g. why not switch on the 400W HPS (2100K) for the first and last 3hrs and the 600W (5800K) during noontime?
you could safe 2,4kWh of light costs per lamp each day without any loss of efficency at first glance.


less light early and late and much light noontime is just natural, so I guess I'm not puting out a theory that has no scientifc hold.

Also during Fall/Winter light is much weaker than in summer, especially during noontime so i guess the 5800K might be better than 6500 or even more. just because in fall/winter sun shines less bright.


So knowing all that also kind a tells me that MAYBE equatorial Strains are more used to brighter Lighttemp like during noontime and a overall very high light intensity. rember its always 12/12 there and around the equator there are also no classic four seasons. just rainseason and drought.
Indicas (Afghan/Kush) on the other hand grow far more north with real winters. beeing on higher altitude they might too get better light density than your outdoors growing in the garden.
But light temps are something different as light intensity (W/m²) so they indeed receive a different spectrum/temp than equatorial Sativas, simply by the change of spectrum of light during seasons.



In conclusion I would say that sativa dominat strains prefer MH lights and indica dominat strains do need some kind of red/yellow spektrum to perform resonably.
interestingly since the beginning of indoor cultivation the goal was in cultivating indica varieties, so what tells us that? ;)


thx for everyone participating in this thread, especially to the gnome for his eye opening point of veiws :tiphat:
 
Great points but i would have to disagree on your last statement.All plants respond the same regardless of indica sativa qualities.Alot of people are growing hybrids anyways.I know i haven't grown a pure indica or sativa.

I like the idea of the light mover with two different spectrums.It would be interesting to take a strain that has never seen indoor lighting and see the results.

One important thing to remember is that even mh lights have an orange red spectrum in them.Our eyes just can see it.You can buy a hps bulb that emits more blue without having to buy a dual arc bulb.Same as the mh bulbs.

I think the metal halide is good for potency.I cant say why but everything ive pulled out my room since adding the halide has been stupid potent.Im running two 600w hps lights with a halide in the middle.
 
I may be replacing all the bulbs with halides!Try to get ahold of the movie see more buds they have a guy with a 20k metal halide only grow!
 

Hmong

Well-known member
Veteran
Great points but i would have to disagree on your last statementAll plants respond the same regardless of indica sativa qualities.Alot of people are growing hybrids anyways.I know i haven't grown a pure indica or sativa
of course, it was just an idea. I don't have nearly enough experience with pure strains and also in growing anyway. I'm a scientist so everything I do more or less starts from a theory^^

BUT what I have is a pure Thai Strain. 6 of them are waiting in Veg and I am going to flip them in 2 weeks at the latest. After reading this whole thread and putting this weird theory together in my head I decided to do a little experiment. I am going to bloom them under the MH which is allready in. They grew there with about 3-4 fingers wide internodes which is quite normal fur a pure Sativa i guess. Friends horrified me with 30cm internode space if I try to grow unselected landraces indoors. Quite some huge bullshit I guess^^




Rosa (Hybrid) vs Hmong Hilltribe 3 weeks after sprout




So the ldea is to bloom with the 400W (4500K) Phillips MH and add some 2100K spectrum too. therefore I am going to buy a 85W (2100K) CFL Bulb which I just place towards the MH bulb on my Adjust A Wing Reflektor. I plan to run the 85 all 12hrs but the MH only 9 hrs. so 1,5hrs dawn and dusk with only 2100K.
this would safe me energy in the end although i use an additional bulb lol. with 10 hrs MH and 1hrs dawn/dusk it would cost an additional 6,6€ each month compared to the MH running alone for 12hrs. So running it 9 & 1,5 costs nothing but gives me additional total Wattage during this 9hrs and more importantly a lot more PAR Watts. Of course the additional bulb costs around 30$ haha

Since this is no commercial grow all coclusion I draw from it, won't help you guys much with ya big rooms. Its like the same as with LED. Nobody cares about it overall because there is no commercial potential so far.

You can buy a hps bulb that emits more blue without having to buy a dual arc bulb.Same as the mh bulbs.
I am using this type ever since! I use the Phillips Grenn Power.
Its a 2100K. I got myself informed before I bought it because it costs more than other brands but it lives longer. lets say you could do one grow more with it than with the sylvania or GIB most people here use. Sylvania with the additional b/w for example has 2050K. A normal HSP bulb has 2000K, so I choose Phillips because there is at least some difference in Temp.
plz notice I am from europe so there are indeed some differences in bulbs spektrums of the same manufacturer even in the same models. I became aware of that after searching for a HM bulb with 4000K and 220V. So letst say i just looked for gnoms lamp in 220V. It just doesnt exit.

of course there was a sylvania model with the same name and in 220V though it has 4200K^^
So buying lamps also has become some sort of crime ivestigation via google if you want exacly what the other guy uses.
 

DrFever

Active member
Veteran
Hordi super blue for veg HPS all the way 28,000 watts worth and a different league all together
 

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