Flowering.... trimming fan leaves off....leaving fan leaves on

[ICbuds]

excellent post Greenscience, thanks for sharing

 

[papaduc]

You realize side by side experiments have too many variables when it comes to plants right? The protocols for a true side by side cannot be met so why cry about it.

This isn't true. If the conditions of a side by side test can't be met using genetically identical clones, it's hard to know how they ever could be met.

In field testing they split plots, meaning they test a procedure on one section of a field, and leave a separate section untreated. A lot of the things you might use in your day to day growing might come backed up by findings of such tests.

Side by side testing using clones can only be dismissed if nobody can be bothered putting the effort into doing it properly.

And so far, Swami is right in what he says in regard to what actual substance is in this thread to warrant it being in the side by side forum. I've got to admit what I found was anecdotal and not in any way a true side by side, even though I've done with and without before.

I think most of the people in here, if they would be objective, would agree. It's clearly a thread of debate and opinion. not side by side testing.

If you look through the growers on here and deduce which ones defoliate vs not you can see the more experienced members defoliate at some point.

Yes but there's huge variations in how people do it. to the point where different methods of defoliation are almost completely unrelated.

Some growers who strip the odd fan leaf here and there throughout the grow, strongly disagree with those who say strip the plant bare. In that sense they're more on the side of people who suggest not to defoliate at all.

When the thread `defoliation; high yield technique` was posted, it was in reference to the stripping of plants down to the bare bones. That each person's interpretation or opinion of it is different only adds weight to the opinion that what works best, or at what point there are diminishing returns, isn't understood any more clearly now than it was at the beginning of the thread.

Without proper side by side tests, I don't know how it ever will be. I don't agree with shouting people down for suggesting that. In fact, I completely agree.

I love when people dive in and just say "well all of this isnt science its opinion".

Until a proper side by side is done, where at least a majority of conditions are met, opinion is all it is. The fact it's backed up by an individual experience makes it anecdotal evidence. Especially when individual experiences seem to wildly contrast each other.

Yet, they dont have any imput just remarks about experience being drivel.

So, when there are so many different opinions, whose experience do you draw from - the fella who says strip them bare.... or the guy who says don't touch them til after 2 weeks of stretch... or the one who says don't strip them at all?
Nobody said experience is drivel. Just that it's individual experience. While it's good to read, it proves nothing. Especially, as I said, when it conflicts.

Hey guys its not science so your words and experience are meaningless.

Again, nobody said this. I wouldn't say people's words were meaningless unless I was sure they were lying, or exaggerating, and I'm sure that's not what swami meant either.

Pfffffft, please. Any seasoned grower knows defoliation is crucial indoors.

That's clearly not true. There are so many seasoned growers who won't touch the plant, except to remove some lower leaves and bud sites.

And even of the people who do defoliate, if the opinions on how to defoliate are so far apart, how can you categorize them as though they're all of the same opinion?

They're clearly not, and it's a fact which remains. Even at this point in the thread.

Thanks for adding nothing.

I think he made a reasonable observation actually.

I think advising people that side by side tests are meaningless because they can't be properly controlled, is the more counter productive statement to make.

 

[Bassy59]

This isn't true. If the conditions of a side by side test can't be met using genetically identical clones, it's hard to know how they ever could be met.

In field testing they split plots, meaning they test a procedure on one section of a field, and leave a separate section untreated. A lot of the things you might use in your day to day growing might come backed up by findings of such tests.

Side by side testing using clones can only be dismissed if nobody can be bothered putting the effort into doing it properly.

And so far, Swami is right in what he says in regard to what actual substance is in this thread to warrant it being in the side by side forum. I've got to admit what I found was anecdotal and not in any way a true side by side, even though I've done with and without before.


When the thread `defoliation; high yield technique` was posted, it was in reference to the stripping of plants down to the bare bones. That each person's interpretation or opinion of it is different only adds weight to the opinion that what works best, or at what point there are diminishing returns, isn't understood any more clearly now than it was at the beginning of the thread.

Without proper side by side tests, I don't know how it ever will be. I don't agree with shouting people down for suggesting that. In fact, I completely agree.



Until a proper side by side is done, where at least a majority of conditions are met, opinion is all it is. The fact it's backed up by an individual experience makes it anecdotal evidence. Especially when individual experiences seem to wildly contrast each other.

Then why don't you step up and do it. link us the journal.

 

[EclipseFour20]

Then why don't you step up and do it. link us the journal.

Why are you feeding the "naysayer"?

Definition: a person who says something will not work or is not possible : a person who denies, refuses, or opposes something.

 

[papaduc]

Why are you feeding the "naysayer"?

Definition: a person who says something will not work or is not possible : a person who denies, refuses, or opposes something.

Actually, I'm saying it will work, it is possible, and that it should be done. If you had read the previous few posts, instead of just being a troll, you'd know that.

 

[papaduc]

Then why don't you step up and do it. link us the journal.

Same goes for you. And everyone else in the thread. None of us have actually done it. Still.

This is the thing. I'm just giving an honest assessment of what I see. The results of my experience with defoliation are just anecdotal, I admit that. I never actually compared anything side by side.

Taking the fan leaves off in veg, mostly, is what I'm interested in. How it affects the growth rates and then how that factors into the overall time frame vs yield ratio.

I do intend to do a side by side btw. You'll see it soon enough if everything stays cool. It'd be good if other people can can get on it too.

 

[Crooked8]

I like how you never quoted my explanation of why plant side by sides cant give founded evidence. Did you go to a tech school or have you had some higher education? Like i said, not explaining this again. Look into plant experimentation. It can lead to strong correlations. You think every clone comes out the same? Read back a few pages to my plant experimentation issues comment. Deduce which questions you can get founded answers for(which is basically none) for sure, slap yourself in the face, then re read the training method i explained several times. You'll see a nice yield bump OR, Show us a better method. My method isnt the only way to do things but if you grow any sort of strain with height, and you dont defoliate, its likely you're losing out. I think you are the "well my way is right until you prove it for me" guy. Quit being a puss, try the defoliation. Otherwise, you're clogging up peoples success rates with your "ill find a way to shoot this down" ramblings of "well we dont know until this impossible criteria is met side by side" crap. What have you done? What are your yields like? You getting a gram per watt with non commercial strains? I gave my opinion, my experience and my training method i use. If you find it flawed, explain why, and show us that your product holds up from unmolested plants.

 

[Crooked8]

Looking forward to your side by side. I would do this, but i dont want larf and low yield.

 

[EclipseFour20]

Believe I said this a few times on this thread: The best side-by-side experiments are the ones you do yourself. And what does that prove? It proves many things but it does not become "scientific evidence" or a "smoking gun" proving something is "false. Why, because "side by sides" experiments are really "anecdotal evidence".

From wiki: The expression anecdotal evidence refers to evidence from anecdotes. Because of the small sample, there is a larger chance that it may be unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise non-representative samples of typical cases.[1][2] Anecdotal evidence is considered dubious support of a claim; it is accepted only in lieu of more solid evidence. This is true regardless of the veracity of individual claims.[3][4][5]

The term is often used in contrast to scientific evidence, such as evidence-based medicine, which are types of formal accounts. Some anecdotal evidence does not qualify as scientific evidence because its nature prevents it from being investigated using the scientific method. Misuse of anecdotal evidence is an informal fallacy and is sometimes referred to as the "person who" fallacy ("I know a person who..."; "I know of a case where..." etc. Compare with hasty generalization). Anecdotal evidence is not necessarily representative of a "typical" experience; in fact, human cognitive biases such as confirmation bias mean that exceptional or confirmatory anecdotes are much more likely to be remembered. Accurate determination of whether an anecdote is "typical" requires statistical evidence.[6][7]

Accounts of direct personal experience are commonly equated to anecdotal evidence where the evidence is anecdote, hearsay or represents a conclusion deduced from generalisation. Unlike anecdotal evidence, the reliability of accounts of personal experience is normally capable of assessment for legal proceedings.

So instead of trying to "prove a negative" (something does not work), perhaps we all would be better served if we exchange ideas of what works (less challenges to "prove it").

Just saying...I "troll" ICMag to share ideas and help others--life is too short to dwell on the negative or stir shit up.

Cheers!

 

[Bassy59]

Same goes for you. And everyone else in the thread. None of us have actually done it. Still.

This is the thing. I'm just giving an honest assessment of what I see. The results of my experience with defoliation are just anecdotal, I admit that. I never actually compared anything side by side.

So you consider this post from D9 anecdotal as well?

i just weighed last weeks plant and it only went 15.80. i guess i screwed up somewhere.
so my last five consecutive defoliated plants went 11.96, 12.35, 14.74, 18.38, and 15.80 for a total of 73.23
or an average of 14.65 each.
my last 5 plants before defoliation averaged 10.49, or 52.45 total oz's.
a total difference of 20.78 or 4.16 zips per plant.
i have been doing a series of changes over the last year to drive up yield and this one, defoliating, has made
the largest difference.
at this point i'll stop posting pics and weight here as i think i have proven this technique.
thanks k33ftr33z

Why side by side doesnt work with 99% of the growers out there:

Most growers indoors, and specifically more so those that this method applies to, which if you've read the original thread by k33ftr33z, is those growing indoors, in a limited space, with limited plant #'s cannot do side by side because when defoliating the defoliated plant will slow it's vertical growth for a short period.

This means the non-defoliated plant will become taller. Now you're forced to raise the light over that plant, which means the shorter defoliated plant is get less of the optimal light in the best zone.

Secondly, the proximity of the non defoliated plant to the defoliated plant will too often shade out some of the defoliated plant. This gets even worse as it grows taller than the defoliated, and again is compounded by light distance/shading combination.

Does anyone NOT understand this?

What's important to understand for those wanting "evidence" is the lack of acceptance from those like D9 and others whom shared specific weights and avg's over a long period of growing prior to defoliating, then after using this method had highly increased their yields. as evidenced by D9 and others in the original thread.

I too have seen an increase in yield avg of over 50% using this method from previous grows.

Is their experience just anecdotal?
Are we being ignorant not accepting the experience of others as evidence?

 

[darkhorse]

Defoliating in my opinion should only be done if you have not spread your crop to the correct
spacing.
Be like pulling leaves off any other flowering plant for the flower to do the hard work, which does not happen.

Is this not a biological fact that this is this not the case?

10 - 100 people could do a side by side and you would have to weigh in all the optimal growth conditions and individual setup conditions, ie; some could be using side lighting or mylar whilst others none for starters.

 

[Payaso]

Okay guys, I feel a great need to weigh in here and put my foot down.

All of you seem to agree, to disagree! That is so typical of life these days

Challenging each other to do your best, step up to the plate and run a true side-by-side is what is needed here.

So, to make things interesting, and quell the drama which leads to personal attacks and eventually worse [ ]

I'd like to turn the tables on y'all

We are going to have a contest. This way we can see with photos exactly the differences are between defoliating and leaving all healthy leaves on the plant through harvest.



So here's a link to the contest, and we can continue this discussion there with our first topic being the rules for the competition...and oh yes, there is a seriously nice prize involved here I've already made sure it's available at the Bay/Boo for the winner, and I will feature the contest and winner in the eMagazine when completed.

So Let's have Some fun and Learn something!

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=275468

 

[Payaso]

Now that the experiment is happening, we can reopen this thread. Thank you for your patience!

 

[The Hatter]

i've always wondered what breeders did to the strains i gro, like was a strain bred under conditions of NO defol, therefore maybe making it better NOT to defol, or vice versa.... it'd be nice to kno...
sumn to think on.

This is a very good point. I love it when breeders actually tell you the conditions they grow under and the characteristics they selected for. It really does make a difference when you grow a plant in radically different conditions from which it was developed in.

Some common examples I can think of are pure land race sativas and how you can literally kill them by putting them in a really rich organic soil that an indica poly hybrid would absolutely thrive in or how finicky they are in hydro. The opposite can be true of plants that have been bred for years in hydro. They often will not yield nearly as well when grown in soil. Another example I have personally seen is that some strains with very compact columnar growth really do poorly when topped and trained into a scrog yet are amazing in SOG and vice versa. I imagine that defoliating is similiar in that its effectiveness will vary from strain to strain.

I have never done proper scientific testing but what I have noticed with defoliating is that it seems pretty much pointless on my thin leafed, open structured tropical sativas since light penetration is already excellent with them but on bushy broad leafed indicas that radically shade their own bud sites it really does seem to help the yield when I tuck or remove leaves blocking light to lower bud sites.

I'm looking forward to the results in this contest. Best of luck to all the participants.

 

[Arminius]

My side by side is on hold at the moment. Landlord crossed the line, and I am relocating. I may transport them to the new site next week, and try to pull off the side by side, but I am not holding my breath. Relocating will take more time than would allow me to document, and adhere to a schedule.
I will know more by the end of the week at my second meeting of a retiring collective owner...

 

[DamnUglyDogE]

Pull while lights on VS off...

Pull while lights on VS off...

Sup yall.. Ive read quite a bit of this thread and have tried a few things myself and was just about to go pull some fan's which I personally like starting on the tail end of stretch and before full swellege...
Having taken only a few in veg...

Any how... I can not recall anyone talking about pulling fan with the lights on VS with the lights off...

My lights are off ATM and I just realized,standing with the green light. I have always pulled fan's with lights on for a few minutes...

So my question is...

Given my understanding is plants store needed food in the leaves during lights off and use said food come lights on...
Would/could pulling fans during lights off,stall or otherwise slow/harm the ladies ?
Makes no difference ?
Im thinking when the light turns on and they go for the food they had stored and find it's gone might throw them for a loop..

Any thoughts on pulling during light on VS off ?

 

[Crooked8]

Imo i doubt it would have an effect, ive defoliated basically right before the lights go out and i havent seen a difference. Interesting question, im really not sure. For sure debatable.

 

[DHF]

Well AD , since the only times I ever went in my fliprooms for 15 yrs AFTER bein burnt and half blinded by bare bulbs in my `ol Krusty bucket days , was during lights off with my "green eye tasklights" hooked on both ears and lookin like something outta 1 of YOUR alien pics ........

I`ll stand up and say categorically that gradually takin fans with stems over as long as it takes till they`re all gone with none poppin back out , NEVER affected swellage till end of cycle with my Chem D`s.....now granted....

Of those 15 yrs workin in the rooms durin lights off , the last 5 were the only times I stripped fans while learnin how to and not fuck up by takin too many too fast , so by all means IME......

Carry on Bro , and good luck.....

Peace.....DHF..........

 

[Green_science]

Some somewhat newish research is currently being done on a topic that may have some signeeficance to you're question @Alien Dawg, to cut a long story short its about how plants control the regulation of stored resources, during night periods, with such efficiency, IE starch consumption relative to reserves and estimated lights off period, its probably going to be a next big thing in PGR's at some point in time, IE making plants grow 150% more during lights off than usual, ANYWAY, and to my point, I would say leafs off during early morning, would be the best way to not interfere with said process IMO

 

[OakyJoe]

On small places with a scrog i always trimming the leaves during vegi and flower but only the fan ones and not all. maybe 75%. The Topleafs always stays. Never got any Problems also i got a normal yield.