Super Soil, Tea, Sythentic Nutes

[Chunky Dixel]

I transplant before going to flower because I anticipate having bigger plants over the next 2-3 months...it wouldn't make sense to flower in a container in which they have grown root bound.

Certainly when you are going from veg to flower - you do transplant / up pot, correct?? I think that is standard practice in any soil garden. More root space equates to larger yields and fuller, more mature flowers...but yes, certainly, having freshly composted medium for the roots to grow into contributes to the lack of having to provide additional nutrition through other means...



dank.Frank

Roots grow though the stretching period they do not grow while the plant is producing flower. So when you transplant sure the roots grow for two to three weeks, but other than that you're allowing more time between watering

 

[GreenDream]

I've always thought it was better to veg in the container that it will flower at least a week prior to 12 hour but a lot of the old school guys say flip when transplant like FrDank

I have always transplanted right at the flip (for over 10 years now) and as long as you don't stress them it works just fine. I had to do that out of necessity because my veg room is small, and my bloom room is perpetual, so I can't veg in it.

However, I just increased the size of my veg and I can now give them some time in their final pot so I can finally see how big a difference it actually makes. This grow I am giving them 2 weeks. Any longer and I think they will get WAY too root-bound at the end.

(My growing style is to focus on the roots. The only hormones I give are to encourage rooting. I highly feel that your top mass is directly proportional to root mass, so I grow roots, not flowers.) Oh, and whoever said roots don't grow during bloom is full of it. They most definitely DO, and to say they don't is just plain silly. (No offense)

This is what good root systems achieve:

These were grown organically, while focusing on the roots. (Using liquid organic nutes... not super soil FWIW.)

Frank, I would like to chat with you some time about your soil mix. I have a good outdoor blend, but I am curious how it compares to your indoor blend. Please let me know if you are interested in comparing notes... I would greatly appreciate it. Indoors I have always been a bottle feeder, even when growing organically. Meta Naturals was my go-to brand.

 

[Chunky Dixel]

Ok I would like to express this blog has gotten of track from the beginning.
We all know that you can grow in super soil and feed only water. This isn't a new style of growing by any means.

I brought up this topic to hear feed back from anyone who is enriching a soil medium, brewing tea and additionally using synthetic nutes.

I want to be clear that I know you can grow with a super soil only ha!

 

[Team Microbe]

Ok I would like to express this blog has gotten of track from the beginning.
We all know that you can grow in super soil and feed only water. This isn't a new style of growing by any means.

I brought up this topic to hear feed back from anyone who is enriching a soil medium, brewing tea and additionally using synthetic nutes.

I want to be clear that I know you can grow with a super soil only ha!

What we're trying to say is that blending both organics and synthetics is counter-productive.

I didn't understand the difference between the two either for a while so no worries brother. Let me try to break it down for you though:


The main goal in organic gardening or true living organics (TLO) is to feed the soil, not the plant. There are billions of living micro-organisms in healthy soil, and the plant depends on these living organisms to break down nutrients and feed it to the plant in chelated (kee-lated) form. Once there, they're immediately available to the plant and can be then stored in the soil for later use when needed. THIS let's the plant be in control, deciding when it needs/wants to feed and what it wants to eat. Does that sound like the best method to keep plants happy?

or does this: (you be the judge)

Synthetic nutrients are chemicals that are already in chelated form. This means that there is no buffer or "dinner plate" so-to-speak for the plant to eat off of... you're literally force-feeding food down the plants throat (or up it's xylem lol). This is why we run into nutrient deficiencies and over-feeding issues when using synthetic nutes. It's pretty a pretty cocky practice of growing if you ask me... nobody knows what a plant is thinking and they never will (no matter how green your thumb is). And as a side note - chemicals (toxins) found in synthetics reside in cannabis at the cellular level, meaning they cannot be flushed out. My heart goes out to hydro growers trying to flush in the final weeks for this reason, they're not getting half of that crap out. Then they're giving this to their patients?! Talk about non-medicinal medicine lol.




So now that you know how the two different styles work, I'll answer your original question:


synthetics kill micro-organisms in your soil.

THIS means while your organic nutes are trying to do their job, the synthetics youre adding that you think are helping are actually killing the micro-herd you've established with the use of your organics. Soon enough, you'll only be able to get food to the plant in synthetic form. So basically once you add a drop of synthetic nutrient to your res the point of continuing the use of any organic nutrient is non-existent. This is what nutrient companies want you to do too, they want you to have to use their stuff and make you believe that we need them. When in reality, we don't and never have.

Feels kinda good, doesn't it?

So pick one or the other, and when I say that I mean choose organics because if you intend on becoming a serious gardener and producing safe/medicinal cannabis... that will be the route you eventually find yourself going down anyways. Might as well get started now right?





P.S.

I take my time to write these posts because I wasted 5 years of my gardening career on hydro/aeroponics and synthetics until I picked up a book or two and learned about soil science. I hope this saves you the time I can't get back!

 

[Chunky Dixel]

Team Microbe

Thank you very much. Reading your post I started to think of adding in bottled organic nutrients at the end of the cycle which has been suggest to me from previously.

I do have one more thought of all this organic talk from everyone here.

I've had a soil biologist tell me there isn't enough time for nutrients to break down in the soil to be readily available for the roots to uptake. Now I think the way of getting around this is brewing tea and or having soil premixed with time to biodegrade.

 

[Avinash.miles]

I've had a soil biologist tell me there isn't enough time for nutrients to break down in the soil to be readily available for the roots to uptake. Now I think the way of getting around this is brewing tea and or having soil premixed with time to biodegrade.

many soil mixes need to stew or "cook" a few months before use; hence making the nutrints available by the time the plant is in the soil.... also i believe it depends on which soil amendments you use as to what breaks down how quickly, ESO makes a great point about this on his blog, difference btween rock phosphate and crab shell meal.

Also, having soil amendments break down over time is actually a good thing for a grower intnding to reuse soil, am i wrong? I've always though greensand was a good addition to soil IF you were planning on recycling...

I'd love a more experienced organics guy fill in on this, but I've always been under the impressino that if your soil cooks propererly then your nutrients are available....

also, about Teas.... i THINK that generally the teas used in organic indoor with super soils are to feed the microbial life in the soil, not as much to feed the plant.
am i wrong?

 

[Eureka Springs Organics]

many soil mixes need to stew or "cook" a few months before use; hence making the nutrints available by the time the plant is in the soil.... also i believe it depends on which soil amendments you use as to what breaks down how quickly, ESO makes a great point about this on his blog, difference btween rock phosphate and crab shell meal.

Also, having soil amendments break down over time is actually a good thing for a grower intnding to reuse soil, am i wrong? I've always though greensand was a good addition to soil IF you were planning on recycling...

I'd love a more experienced organics guy fill in on this, but I've always been under the impressino that if your soil cooks propererly then your nutrients are available....

also, about Teas.... i THINK that generally the teas used in organic indoor with super soils are to feed the microbial life in the soil, not as much to feed the plant.
am i wrong?

You are right. Soil scientists deal with fields, and not potting soil. They think that you plant a plant, and then remove it after 60 days. That is not the case any longer. More and more everyone is recycling their soil.

Teas can be done for multiple reasons. Feeding the microbes is typically the most popular.

 

[GreenDream]

What a lot of people are forgetting is that organic nutrients usually always have immediately available amounts that do not need to be broken down by microbes in the soil. It is for this reason that you can still burn with organic nutes.

For example... Look at a bag of bone meal. It might say 0-12-0 on the front. That 12 is the percent of instantly available phosphorous in the bag. Then often times on the back of the bag they will list the percent of unavailable phosphorous in the bag which is usually around 20%, for a total of 32% phos. That means that microbes are only going to break down the 20% phosphorous over time, and the plant has 12% dicalcium phosphate instantly available.

All this talk about microbes needing to break down organics is true, but only to a point. You can DEFINITELY burn with organic foods.

Finally, chemical phosphates (like p2o5) only kill microbes when they are in concentrations over 50ppm's. It's not true that the addition of ANY chemical nutrient kills microbes.

 

[Team Microbe]

Finally, chemical phosphates (like p2o5) only kill microbes when they are in concentrations over 50ppm's. It's not true that the addition of ANY chemical nutrient kills microbes.

I didn't know that, very interesting. So you just have to make sure to measure your solution before adding it to your res? I still probably wouldn't do it, it's pretty pointless IMO

 

[Eureka Springs Organics]

What a lot of people are forgetting is that organic nutrients usually always have immediately available amounts that do not need to be broken down by microbes in the soil. It is for this reason that you can still burn with organic nutes.

For example... Look at a bag of bone meal. It might say 0-12-0 on the front. That 12 is the percent of instantly available phosphorous in the bag. Then often times on the back of the bag they will list the percent of unavailable phosphorous in the bag which is usually around 20%, for a total of 32% phos. That means that microbes are only going to break down the 20% phosphorous over time, and the plant has 12% dicalcium phosphate instantly available.

All this talk about microbes needing to break down organics is true, but only to a point. You can DEFINITELY burn with organic foods.

Finally, chemical phosphates (like p2o5) only kill microbes when they are in concentrations over 50ppm's. It's not true that the addition of ANY chemical nutrient kills microbes.

If this were true no one would ever "cook" there soil. Composting being a better word.

I would love to see you or anyone else mix a soil with no compost, worm castings etc, and then add in your soil amendments and immediately grow. The outcome would not be good.

The microbes are indeed necessary to complete nutrient cycling.

No microbes, no nutrient cycling.

Organics is not hydroponics.

 

[dank.frank]

^^^^this exactly.

it's all about that soil food web, thingy....maaaaaannnnnnn....

If you want to understand the rhizosphere a bit better - in a quick fashion:

http://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/the-rhizosphere-roots-soil-and-67500617



dank.Frank

 

[Eureka Springs Organics]

^^^^this exactly.

it's all about that soil food web, thingy....maaaaaannnnnnn....

If you want to understand the rhizosphere a bit better - in a quick fashion:

http://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/the-rhizosphere-roots-soil-and-67500617



dank.Frank

Great link!!!

 

[GreenDream]

Ugh. It is true... One of my very good friends owns and operates Sea Pal Nutrients, which is manufactured right down the road from me. He and I have discussed all this, including finer points about the nutrient industry that you are not going to get elsewhere.

1. Those NPK numbers listed on every nutrient you buy, whether it's organic or mineral or synthetic, are ALWAYS the available amounts. Unavailable amounts are usually written on the back, though it is not required by the CDFA.

2. Just because a nutrient is "organic", doesn't mean it's unavailable. Some are, some aren't.

3. Don't call a nutrient organic just because of it's name. Take Urea for example. Some people think Urea is either always organic or always synthetic (depending on where your info comes from or your background). Urea can be both, and an interesting side note is that both are chemically identical and act the exact the same way in the soil.

I am not trying to argue with anyone. Most of what everyone is saying is true, but there are also some major misconceptions going on. I can list peer reviewed articles all day long, listing organic nutrients that are as available as chemical nutrients.

 

[Eureka Springs Organics]

Ugh. It is true... One of my very good friends owns and operates Sea Pal Nutrients, which is manufactured right down the road from me. He and I have discussed all this, including finer points about the nutrient industry that you are not going to get elsewhere.

1. Those NPK numbers listed on every nutrient you buy, whether it's organic or mineral or synthetic, are ALWAYS the available amounts. Unavailable amounts are usually written on the back, though it is not required by the CDFA.

2. Just because a nutrient is "organic", doesn't mean it's unavailable. Some are, some aren't.

3. Don't call a nutrient organic just because of it's name. Take Urea for example. Some people think Urea is either always organic or always synthetic (depending on where your info comes from or your background). Urea can be both, and an interesting side note is that both are chemically identical and act the exact the same way in the soil.

I am not trying to argue with anyone. Most of what everyone is saying is true, but there are also some major misconceptions going on. I can list peer reviewed articles all day long, listing organic nutrients that are as available as chemical nutrients.

Again do as I have stated earlier. Mix a "soil" with no microbes, and only has soil amendments with these "available" nutrients. See what happens.

You will change your tune at that point.

Soil amendments become "bioavailable" because of microbes.

 

[Eureka Springs Organics]

Your friend appears to make liquid products that have been predigested by enzymes.

We are not even close to being on the same age.

 

[GreenDream]

No you're just not listening. Here's a peer reviewed article stating that dicalcium phosphate, a widely recognized organic source of phosphorous, is just as available as triple super phosphate. They did not "cook" the soil to release it's nutrients. It is less soluble than chemical phos, but still available.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF01394258

Another example:
Go ahead, try growing in pure chicken shit and tell me how that goes. Or better yet, run some R/O water through sterilized chicken poop and tell me what the EC reads afterwards.

Another example:
Rock phosphate typically contains about 20% phosphorous but is usually only 0-3-0 because most of the phosphorous requires work by microbes to release it from the mineral structure. Occasionally you can find 0-12-0 rock phos that has been pre-worked, but it still contains more phos that will break down over time. You will indeed get an initial rush of 12% phos when applied, and can thus burn with it. I have seen it happen!!! (I'm talking about the water soluble micronized form that can be delivered to the roots via soil drench.)

I can't believe that this is so hard for you to understand.

Another example:
Try topdressing a 3gal pot with a cup or 2 of seabird guano 12-12-2.5. I promise you it will burn the cr@p out of your plants WAY before any microbes have a chance to break it down.

It bugs me that no matter how many times I say that most of what people are saying is correct, yet there are exceptions and misconceptions, you still feel the need to argue.

 

[GreenDream]

Your friend appears to make liquid products that have been predigested by enzymes.

We are not even close to being on the same age.

You're right, we're not on the same page. My friend actually creates organic nutrients from scratch. (By harvesting ocean fish) And has been doing so for over 30 years.

You simply sell pre-packaged organic amendments, like all the other retail stores out there.

If you want I can give you my friends number, and he can privately label some nutrients for your store, too.

 

[Eureka Springs Organics]

You're right, we're not on the same page. My friend actually creates organic nutrients from scratch. (By harvesting ocean fish) And has been doing so for over 30 years.

You simply sell pre-packaged organic amendments, like all the other retail stores out there.

If you want I can give you my friends number, and he can privately label some nutrients for your store, too.

This has become very unproductive. Your friend is the best in the world, and I am shit. Does that make you feel better?

Frank, and myself are not new at this. Hard to believe huh? People who site studies have no first hand knowledge about what they speak.

Have I sighted one study? That should tell you something. I don't need to try to prove anything.

Again, this has gotten to the point where you are being derogatory.

No point in discussing anything further.

 

[Eureka Springs Organics]

You're right, we're not on the same page. My friend actually creates organic nutrients from scratch. (By harvesting ocean fish) And has been doing so for over 30 years.

You simply sell pre-packaged organic amendments, like all the other retail stores out there.

If you want I can give you my friends number, and he can privately label some nutrients for your store, too.

I would suggest you go through my site a bit before you say I am just like every other repackaging retailer. I have been working for years on many products that I personally manufacture, and distribute. We also wholesale to hydroponic shops, and nurseries. as well.

My main focus being compost tea, and the microbes created in said tea. Spent 2 years designing my line of tea brewers. Many hours spent looking through the scope to get the right design down.

I also make liquid nutrients from scratch like your friend. Does that put me in the cool kids club?

 

[Avinash.miles]

if everyone would keep a cool head, be respectful to each other, we could actually have a discussion on this topic without ostracizing members who seem to be very informed on the topic as well as an advertiser on the site....

please erryone be chill and refrain from attacks and bad attitudes, cool kids club antics... etc.

if we all play nice.....
we may just be able to inform one another based on our knowledge and experience rather than resorting to hyperbole and anecdote and ultimately insults.

seriously, i'd much rather hear ESO's response to your points than reaction to your attitude, GreenDream.