Organics and Coir

[homebrew420]

Hey all thanks for stopping by. So I am going to try a run using coir and try to use dry organics neem seed meal, kelp meal, EWC (homemade), and a number of other ferts. I am wondering if this is even possible? Dont really see why it wouldn't work but after reading on how things are with coco it may present some challenges. Though I don't really see how salt build-up would be an issue. Lots of bacteria and mycos to help eat it up yum.

So my plan is to amend with all the goodies and let it cook for a few weeks. Then use. Watering with compost, manure, and ECW brewed teas.
What do you think? Can this be done? I ask because the investment for all the ferts and such is going to be a chunk of change.

Thanks and Peace

 

[Sam87]

I have done this with success, but there are some things you have to account for.

First, make sure to rinse your coco very well. Not doing so will lead to headaches throughout your veg cycle.

Also, you will need less lime than you would normally use in peat. I found that 1/2 tsp/g was sufficient, while using 200ppm tapwater. Less alkalinity may call for more lime though. Just watch how that PH plays, and you'll be fine. You may also want to lighten up on the Potassium, might help with N and Mg absorption. But the high PH swings are your number one concern.

I was happy with what I saw, but if I were going to go back to soil, I would go peat. The coco did not seem to provide much benefit in terms of growth rate like it does with mineral salts. And it's just more to play with and figure out. Peat might like to swing acid, but you pretty much always know where it's going, and what it wants. The coco mixes are a brand new learning curve when you get into them, slightly less predictable.

But, peat is dirty cheap here. If you're getting coco on the cheap, then go for it. Any system is going to have a 6 month learning period on it, it's just a matter of hacking at it until they are dialed. Peat is more user friendly because there is so much documentation on it. The coco has a lot less online resources, and so you'll have to do more of the legwork your self.

 

[Harinama]

i reuse my coir for every grow. When i used organics, i had a lot of issues with not being able to flush the coir enough and salts built up. With chem ferts, the coir flushes much better and the plants do not get burnt.

i'd like to go back to organic, just can't figure out a recipe that works, is inexpensive and flushes well.

 

[farmdalefurr]

i reuse my coir for every grow. When i used organics, i had a lot of issues with not being able to flush the coir enough and salts built up. With chem ferts, the coir flushes much better and the plants do not get burnt.

i'd like to go back to organic, just can't figure out a recipe that works, is inexpensive and flushes well.

im in coco as well and think general organics would be good. im using their bio-root right now. to early to tell anything though. you shouldnt have a problem w/ salt build up using organics i thought, eh, maybe im wrong. its super hard to over feed though thats for sure

 

[homebrew420]

I whould not thing that salt build up COULD be a problem. be that if done in such a manner like "TLO," true living organics, there would be so many different micros any salts should just wash out. I would not expect the same kind of growth rates as chem salts. If one is watering with a compost tea every other -every 3rd day otherwise using straight water how could one get these build ups? I am not trying to be a jerk I honestly don't know. Nor do I doubt what is being said here. I have a few things that I will be using and mixing today and let sit and cook for a week. Nice thing about coir is if it is not going to work I will know in a week. The plants should be starving at that point.

I thank you Sam, Hari, and Farm for your responses.

Peace

 

[pinecone]

What do you think? Can this be done?

Yes it can be done. The (2) plants below are in a recycled coco based mix (50% coco, 30% perlite, and 20% EWC - LC's #1 mix) with added N. guano, P guano, and kelp meal. There are no drainage holes in the tote so salt buildup obviously isn't a problem. When I harvested the previous crop I just cut enough of the old stump out to fit new plants in, replanted straight away, and amended via top dressing.

I ask because the investment for all the ferts and such is going to be a chunk of change.

Maybe if you go with a fancy bottled fert line (waste of money IMO). Otherwise it should be cheap, especially if you are on a large scale and can use the farm store as opposed to the hydro store or garden center.

4 lbs of kelp meal at the garden center or hydro store - approximately $20.

50lbs of kelp meal from the farm store - approximately $40.

Pine

 

[B. Friendly]

ya man it's fine to do. some people like coco and prefer to mildly amend it with ferts...
http://ezgrogarden.com/growing-organic/coco-coir/
It is a biodegradable source that degrades very slowly and has a life of three to four years
Properties
Coco coir is a proven best alternative to any growing media. Its use as a growing medium outperforms any other medium used for growing vegetables, ornamentals and tree plants. Its soft structure promotes easy root penetration and healthy growth. Coco coir is 100% environmentally friendly. It is a renewable resource that is consistent in quality. Coco coir has the best physical and chemical properties to promote better plant growth.

Coco has high water-holding capacity. It can hold water up to eight times of its weight and release it over a period of time.
Coco has ideal pH in the range of 6-6.7
It has excellent drainage and air porosity for better plant growth
Coco is very low in EC and carries mostly potassium salts, which is an essential major plant nutrient
Cation exchange capacity is very good
Coco coir has some anti-fungal properties that help plants to get rid of soil borne diseases. It inhibits pathogens like Pithium
Coco is very easy to re-hydrate after being dehydrated
Contains significant amounts of phosphorous (10-50ppm) and potassium (150-450 ppm)
As mentioned above Coco coir is not just a natural product with very good properties for plant growth – it also has some winning advantages over other growing mediums.

Advantages of Coco Coir
It is a 100% renewable resource
Coco coir is light in weight
It is consistent in high quality
Coco coir is completely environmentally friendly
The top of the product layer in grow bags/pots always remain dry, leaving behind no chances of fungal growth
Coco coir never shrinks, cracks or produces crust
It promotes better root systems in a short time
Coco coir is odorless, pleasant to handle, and uniform in composition

 

[Sam87]

I whould not thing that salt build up COULD be a problem. be that if done in such a manner like "TLO," true living organics, there would be so many different micros any salts should just wash out. I would not expect the same kind of growth rates as chem salts. If one is watering with a compost tea every other -every 3rd day otherwise using straight water how could one get these build ups? I am not trying to be a jerk I honestly don't know. Nor do I doubt what is being said here. I have a few things that I will be using and mixing today and let sit and cook for a week. Nice thing about coir is if it is not going to work I will know in a week. The plants should be starving at that point.

I thank you Sam, Hari, and Farm for your responses.

Peace

You can't, and won't. Salt buildup does not apply to what you are looking to do. Even the "cation buffering" thing is moot, unless you don't have any "cook" time. You just want to rinse it out for any preexisting sodium the first time you use it, before you mix everything up. You should never have to flush a self contained soil.

And yes, you'll notice problems pretty quickly if you mess up. Peat normally goes crazy 2-3 weeks after transplant, coco seems to be a crash kind of thing, then you adjust and are up and running. But you can tweak things as you go, so even if things seem off, you can still pull a great grow.

 

[homebrew420]

Thank you two this confirms all of what I have read and had come to believe. I am currently using botanicare bricks. Going to use neem cake, general purpose Bio-Start, and probably kelp meal. at least going to use kelp extract. Of course using microbe inoculants, GH sub-culture b and Extreem gardening Mycos. This should give a good rounding out of nutes. And in mid late flower I am thinking Meta K maybe even some rock phosphate from the get go.

Anyway thanks again for all the input
Peace

 

[Sam87]

The Botanicare bricks are pretty much the best you can get. Hydrofarm is good too, but salty. I used to love Sunleaves, but I've cracked three shitty bricks from them this month, and they've lost my business with that.

Soft Rock Phosphate is a nice amendment. Don't bother top dressing with it, as it breaks down very slowly. In the mix while it's cooking. Rock Phosphate will neutralize acids the same as lime, but generally at half the rate, so that's something to consider when you mix things.

Kelp hydrolysate is great, but if you can spring for the meal, do it! Both of them bro, they just can't get enough of that shit. The Algamin kelp meal made a huuuuuuge difference when I added it, and they were getting weekly Age Old Kelp liquid before that, so something seems to translate differently between forms.

If you haven't already dropped the cash, then completely avoid any and all bacterial/fungal innoculants. Go ahead and snag the Mycorrizae, but you don't need the subculture B or any such thing. All of those strains, excepting the Mycos, come prepackaged in any good hummus product (guaranteed to be good, as you're making your own). And if you want a boost, then the oh so popular Lacto innoculants can be made for pennies with rice, milk, and water.

Remember though, the trick to making all of this shit easy, is to ensure that you have enough hummus in the mix. 25% at the very minimum, and regardless of what you do or how the plants look, you'll get a harvest. From there, it's just fine tuning.

What's your water source going to be? Everyone wants to jump on this "PH is unimportant in organics" bandwagon. This is wrong. The trick is to dial your lime into your water source. Therefore, if you want to run tap, and you have alkaline water, you will have to take that into consideration. Decide from the get go whether you want to run R/O or not, and it will make things easier in the long run, instead of chasing the PH chicken all over the damned grow. And if your water is outside of a 6.0-8.0 range, then be prepared to PH everything.

 

[pinecone]

Everyone wants to jump on this "PH is unimportant in organics" bandwagon.

It has been my experience after working with a couple if different water sources (one very alkaline and another neutral) that it doesn't matter.

Pine

Edit: I should add that otherwise I agree with everything Sam said. Especially having compost or castings in the mix, the non-importance of inoculates (they are in the castings and compost), and the benefits, effectiveness, and economy of top dressing dry amendments.

 

[SilverSurfer_OG]

Coco and organics isnt so hard if you make sure there is a steady amount of N. Prebuffering with ferts as you doing should take care of that. Then there is the cal/mag issues and the chance of having an imbalance with K.

I have found the recipe for using roasted egg shells soaked in vinegar for 2 weeks to make calcium phosphate really does wonders for the calcium top up. Great for early flower especially and in general with the extra P.

A foliar with epsom salts is good for magnesium. That and regular mollasses teas.

They do get very hungry once settled in and drink a lot. Keep up the N right up to mid flower and you cant go wrong.

You can easily overwater also in early veg. 100% coco not so much but with LCs#1 type mix with castings/compost etc the bottom of the pots can become waterlogged.

I love hempy buckets with perlite or DE/turface in the res. Any kind of wick type system makes life much easier.

LCs#1 is great for clones and seedlings too.

I am getting a coco/zeolite/DE/soil/castings mix together now for use in a couple of weeks. Layering a big garbage bin with alternate layers of the above and liberal amounts of organic chicken/cow poo pellets. Then mix this with recycled medium from my outdoors grow. Water with a nice tea and let rest.

By letting it sit the coco will absorb all the N it needs and plants should take off like rockets.

 

[Sam87]

It has been my experience after working with a couple if different water sources (one very alkaline and another neutral) that it doesn't matter.

Pine

Edit: I should add that otherwise I agree with everything Sam said. Especially having compost or castings in the mix, the non-importance of inoculates (they are in the castings and compost), and the benefits, effectiveness, and economy of top dressing dry amendments.

Really? Man, I just figured certain people got lucky with their source. I battled PH issues for a year in soil, before I wised up. Hah, maybe my city just has some particularly nasty shit in it's water, wouldn't surprise me a bit.

Just goes to show, you can follow as exact a recipe as you want, but if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Unforseen variables are always a bitch to deal with. Dial your system according to what your plants tell you, not what general consensus demands. Listen to the girls first, and all will always be good.

Cheers Pinecone.

 

[homebrew420]

Again everyone this is great info. The Water here in Northern CO is 1st source water coming off the mountain snowmelt. We have it pretty good. Out of the tap in summer 140ppm. I filter with 5 micron sediment and carbon block, 70ppm. My plan was to add ~20% EWC 20% perlite, and coco. I make my oun castings so I believe the ntritional value greater than the store bought types. Add kelp meal Neem cake and a few guanos. I think it is all going to work out quite well. I have been growing with the coir now in veg, using chem nutes, for aver a month with really promising results. My past experience I treated the medium as though it were soil, mistake. But have all is good now. and soon, 2 weeks, I will be in a dispensary growing for them new exciting varieties that I will have created. As well as many new strains some of which will be released here as freebies or on the bay. Thanks so much for all your help and insight.

Peace