Is this Horsetail(Equisetum)? Replacing pro-tekt with organic Si02

[EclipseFour20]

For a dude who hangs out in the organic growing forum, you sure spend a lot of time naysaying...

Maybe the naysayer comment should be directed to those that think "organics" is a joke and make misstatements in the organic forum.

Yea I consider myself a "Fusion Grower"--adopting the best practices from all disciplines and ignoring those that make no sen$e. I realize this concept can rub some "organic" purists the wrong way, but I prefer honesty over "cheating", so I proudly admit I am 90+% organic...unlike those pretending to be 100% organic--and cheat as they use synthetic/chem inputs.

But all is good; the sky is not falling chicken little!

 

[G.O. Joe]

Where's the science saying plant based silica is at all bioavailable? Who is using it? It would be news to many scientists.

http://www.silicon-nutrition.info/Proceedings2011.pdf

Some DE flour products sound like the best of the more "organic" choices for testing. Extremely fine grinding maximizes the amount of orthosilicic and short-chain polysilicic acid that dissolves. Potassium silicate from sand would naturally involve some chemical process to get there.

 

[Oregonism]

Where's the science saying plant based silica is at all bioavailable? Who is using it? It would be news to many scientists.

http://www.silicon-nutrition.info/Proceedings2011.pdf

Some DE flour products sound like the best of the more "organic" choices for testing. Extremely fine grinding maximizes the amount of orthosilicic and short-chain polysilicic acid that dissolves. Potassium silicate from sand would naturally involve some chemical process to get there.

[Edit] Could you post quotes of what you read? I opened up that 235 page pdf on my cheap garage linux box and it choked, lol.]

Doesn't Albrecht have a chapter or two floating out there on Si assimilation?

Have to dig it out. Most soil scientists also don't/didn't agree with a 7:1 Ca to Mg balance either, just putting that out there.

 

[Oregonism]

Maybe the naysayer comment should be directed to those that think "organics" is a joke and make misstatements in the organic forum.

Yea I consider myself a "Fusion Grower"--adopting the best practices from all disciplines and ignoring those that make no sen$e. I realize this concept can rub some "organic" purists the wrong way, but I prefer honesty over "cheating", so I proudly admit I am 90+% organic...unlike those pretending to be 100% organic--and cheat as they use synthetic/chem inputs.

But all is good; the sky is not falling chicken little!

The quote I believe was actually, that organic certification is suspect and not "organics" as a whole.
Changing the argument doesn't help. If that is the case, I could assume that, initially, the way you framed your rebuttal you were skeptical of any synthetic substance in the organic program, not just my phrasing of what was "grandfathered".

Thanks for the posting that link Spicy, that was the one I googled, like I said and was going to post as well.

So after pissing all over in this thread, I want to systematically remove doubt from E420's mind.

I won't post in here after this, be civil and pm me and I will do the same, if you want to rebut.

Two things in Spicy's link......

1. Chlorine materials—disinfecting and sanitizing food contact surfaces, Except, That, residual chlorine levels in the water shall not exceed the maximum residual disinfectant limit under the Safe Drinking Water Act (Calcium hypochlorite; Chlorine dioxide; and Sodium hypochlorite).
2. Atropine [prescription]
3. magnesium hydroxide [prescription]

grandfathered meant when organic cert. was approved these already existed and main reason given is that no other alternatives were available or infrastructure was limited, easy goverment peddling bullshit speak.
Chlorine is the best example. This is stated in the 28 page pdf on OT for organic certification, in a back appendix. I will hunt it down. The other two are prescription only models that fit the definition of "grandfathered" as well. They were let in from previous use and a veterinary lobby had a hand in achieving that.

Just looking at that complete list is enough to question, what is really organic? I think everyone who think they know the organic program, look at what is allowable under these varied and often obfuscated circumstances.

This isn't a pissing match, I don't have labels. If its free and the soil microbes will digest it, I use it.

 

[EclipseFour20]

You are correct when comparing the term of organic in chemistry, versus an inorganic.

However, "organic" gardening is a misnomer of flaming shit. Before someone enters their argument, go read the list of chemicals "grandfathered" in to make the "organic" list. That list was about deep pockets, not ecological balance.

All gardening was "organic" gardening at some point. Organic based gardening might have been more accurate, however our puny brains couldn't agree with the extra word.

The quote I believe was actually, that organic certification is suspect and not "organics" as a whole.
Changing the argument doesn't help. If that is the case, I could assume that, initially, the way you framed your rebuttal you were skeptical of any synthetic substance in the organic program, not just my phrasing of what was "grandfathered"....

...grandfathered meant when organic cert. was approved these already existed and main reason given is that no other alternatives were available or infrastructure was limited, easy goverment peddling bullshit speak.
...

Sorry, I never changed my argument...see your words above.

Below are examples of "grandfather clause"--

"The name grandfather clause arose from the exceptions that were made for veterans of the Civil War. If the veterans were qualified to vote prior to 1866, their descendants were also qualified. Thus, in effect, if a person's grandfather could vote, he could vote without further restrictions."

"any legal provision that exempts a business, class of persons, etc., from a new regulation that would affect prior rights and privileges."

"The term grandfather clause in its current application refers to a legislative provision that permits an exemption based upon a preexisting condition. For example, through the application of grandfather clauses, certain prerogatives are extended to those regularly engaged in a particular profession, occupation, or business that is regulated by statute or ordinance. Such a clause might allow an individual, who has been in continuous practice in a particular profession for a specific period, to circumvent certain licensing requirements."

"a clause in a statute or zoning ordinance (particularly a city ordinance) which permits the operator of a business or a land owner to be exempt from restrictions on use if the business or property continues to be used as it was when the law was adopted. Upon passage of the statute or regulation, the specific property may be referred to as "grandfathered in." Example: the city passes an ordinance which does not permit retail businesses in a particular zone, but any existing store can continue to function in the area, even with new owners. However, if the premises stop being a retail outlet then the grandfather clause will lapse."

"A grandfather clause is a provision in which an old rule continues to apply to some existing situations, while a new rule will apply to all future cases. Frequently, the exemption is limited; it may extend for a set period of time, or it may be lost under certain circumstances. For example, a "grandfathered power plant" might be exempt from new, more restrictive pollution laws, but those rules would not apply if the plant were expanded. Often, such a provision is used as a compromise or out of practicality, to effect new rules without upsetting a well-established logistical or political situation. This extends the idea of a rule not being retroactively applied."

As you can see, the accepted understanding of "grandfathering" is not the same as the way you used it--"grandfathered meant when organic cert. was approved these already existed and main reason given is that no other alternatives were available or infrastructure was limited, easy goverment peddling bullshit speak. "

So simply said, there are not two sets of "organic rules"--a less restrictive rule for "old timers" (grandfathered) and a more restricted rule for "new comers" (not grandfathered). Rather--the "organic rules" apply to EVERYONE.

In my world, "misinformation" can be worse than "bad information".

Cheers man!

 

[floral]

Where's the science saying plant based silica is at all bioavailable? Who is using it? It would be news to many scientists.

http://www.silicon-nutrition.info/Proceedings2011.pdf

Some DE flour products sound like the best of the more "organic" choices for testing. Extremely fine grinding maximizes the amount of orthosilicic and short-chain polysilicic acid that dissolves. Potassium silicate from sand would naturally involve some chemical process to get there.

Thanks for this link. Is there a particular article or page addressing DE flour vs. rice hulls vs. horsetail etc.? Haven't gone through all 235 pages yet but am curious about effective Si options that are OK for certified organic crops.

My personal choice, since I am growing medicine for my own use and have no commercial considerations, is to use only certified organic materials, and not to use ingredients from factory farms and industrial fishing (which cause great ecological devastation and cruelty so I don't want anything to do with them).

Si and chitin are the two ingredients I'd want to use for which there are not easy organic/non-industrial options, and the chitin thing was resolved by taking a trip to the ocean one day and collecting a handful of crab shells that had been vacated.

Wondering about horsetail extracts, or if rice hulls could ever yield any kind of fermented extract. Otherwise, that SILMATRIX stuff meets my criteria but is expensive and probably hard to find in your local garden center or feed store.

 

[EclipseFour20]

Floral....these 3 docs are not exactly what you are asking for--but should help you on your Si quest!

Silicon uptake and accumulation in higher plants--the reference section should help you as well http://www.aseanbiotechnology.info/Abstract/21019928.pdf

A Review Of Silicon And Its Benefits For Plants--mostly about DE http://hortcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/agripower_silicon-review.pdf

Plant-Available Silicon (Si) as a Protectant against Fungal Diseases in Soil-Less Potting Media--2 year study that includes Rice Hull Ash http://www.ngia.com.au/Story?Action=View&Story_id=1782

Cheers!

 

[SpicySativa]

One option I am going to try is using rice straw as a portion of the bedding in my worm bins. Maybe some of the silica will become plant available, maybe not. Either way, I think my worms will be just fine with it.

I will also be adding fresh comfrey, and dry, powdered horsetail to the bins. Might help, can't hurt.

 

[Oregonism]

.

 

[DabSnob]

dont see why organics in chemistry and organic gardening are seen so separate. mixing guanos, minerals, fertilizers and what not in soil is a chemistry experiment afterall. alot of those products are organic by the chemistry definition also... not sure why growers dont see it that way... I'm just about to start school at OSU, getting my bachelors of science in horticulture. plenty of chemistry,Biology, agricultural and horticultural science. they have a shit ton of soil sciences classes i cant wait to take, very research based degree. cant wait to share with everyone.
Definition from Merriam-Webster
3a (1) : of, relating to, or derived from living organisms <organic evolution> (2) : of, relating to, yielding, or involving the use of food produced with the use of feed or fertilizer of plant or animal origin without employment of chemically formulated fertilizers, growth stimulants, antibiotics, or pesticides <organic farming> <organic produce>
b (1) : of, relating to, or containing carbon compounds (2) : relating to, being, or dealt with by a branch of chemistry concerned with the carbon compounds of living beings and most other carbon compounds

Definition of ORGANIC
1 : an organic substance: as
a : a fertilizer of plant or animal origin
b : a pesticide whose active component is an organic compound or a mixture of organic compounds
c : a food produced by organic farming

 

[EclipseFour20]

Okay my schemantic use of grandfather was incorrect, my apologies.

........Something that wasn't inorganic before certification and is now currently allowed under organic certification, with a clause and is still in-organic.............

I think you are backed into a corner which is unintentional to say the least.

Obviously, even with the something in front of you, you are dismissive.

Your loss. My mistake is that I provided chemistry in a grow forum, I didn't expect the pot snob attitude.

First apology accepted.

Second, please allow me to use two prior posts to clear up any misunderstanding you may have on your part....no snobbery.

But first, lets clear the air. Since acknowledging the definition of "organic" we refer in the growing forums is the "horticulture" one--not "chemistry" one...and regarding the use of synthetics in organic growing, since you admit your word choice of "grandfathered" was inappropriate....then, where is the disagreement? I don't see any.

My words from this thread --

...As I said before, certain synthetics are permitted in "organic growing" but with certain restrictions...namely due to lack of "green alternatives"--not because of a prior practice...."

And from a thread I started a year ago...back when I was 98% organic (prior to the nasty Broad Mite epidemic and since then I have incorporated a few more synthetic inputs)--https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=244553

...
From the NOSB Board on Potassium Silicate--

However, organic law generally does not tolerate the listing of soil amendments that are not naturally occurring in the form
that they are used. While the National List allows the use of some synthetic silica-based fertilizers (§205.601(j)(6)(ii)), they
are allowed only as micronutrient amendments as a means to deliver trace metals and are not intended as silica fertilizers per
se. A strong argument can be made that the substance is ultimately not compatible with organic agriculture based on the fact
that it is a fertilizer of high solubility and is not naturally occurring. Furthermore, silica fertilization is largely unnecessary
in most soils due to the continuous replenishment by natural soil reserves. Where silica amendments are needed, the
availability of a naturally occurring generic substitute (glauconite) makes its inclusion on the National List difficult to
justify.


All TAP reviewers agreed that the petitioned substance should be considered synthetic. Two reviewers felt it should be
prohibited. One of these reviewers cited the nature of potassium silicate as a highly soluble synthetic fertilizer, and also
questioned its effectiveness as a fungicide. The other dissenting reviewer raised similar concerns, questioning the need for silica
amendments in organic systems and the legitimacy of supporting evidence. Both of these reviewers indicated that use of the
substance in organics should be revisited if and when the need, effectiveness, and mode of action are better demonstrated. The
third reviewer was in favor of adding the substance to the List, with annotations. The reviewer viewed the potential benefits as
significant, and felt that the substance ultimately is compatible with a system of organic agriculture.


Source: National Organic Standards Board Technical Advisory Panel Review on Potassium Silicate http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELPRDC5057629

In complications like this one...glad I am 98% Organic. Applying Best Practices and Lesson Learned from others...is not cheating.

Yep....Oregon, I don't see myself in any corner or losing any battle (did not know we were playing "winners/losers")--rather I see that we are almost 100% in agreement....yes, a limited number of synthetics are permitted in organic growing...and by definition, synthetic inputs are inorganic.

Cheers!

 

[Oregonism]

First apology accepted.

Second, please allow me to use two prior posts to clear up any misunderstanding you may have on your part....no snobbery.

But first, lets clear the air. Since acknowledging the definition of "organic" we refer in the growing forums is the "horticulture" one--not "chemistry" one...and regarding the use of synthetics in organic growing, since you admit your word choice of "grandfathered" was inappropriate....then, where is the disagreement? I don't see any.

My words from this thread --


And from a thread I started a year ago...back when I was 98% organic (prior to the nasty Broad Mite epidemic and since then I have incorporated a few more synthetic inputs)--https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=244553


Yep....Oregon, I don't see myself in any corner or losing any battle (did not know we were playing "winners/losers")--rather I see that we are almost 100% in agreement....yes, a limited number of synthetics are permitted in organic growing...and by definition, synthetic inputs are inorganic.

Cheers!

Again, I hate picking but I have to ask about the logic train. ..."By definition? Sythetic inputs maybe "synthesized" from in-organic sources, but I don't think by definition they are inorganic. The chemical structure of an inorganic compound can been changed to mimic an organic compound but so can an organic compound be synthesized to mimic another organic compound as well....

 

[Oregonism]

So it seems that silicone and by extension silicates may play their most important role in phosphorous uptake by cation exchange in humic content in acidic soils. Specifically 2:1 clays .

Can anyone elaborate?

 

[Dudesome]

By the way, I believe people are also missing on such products as Azomite and glacial rock dust, both of which contain a shit ton of plant available organic silica.



As for horsetail, I got really inspired. Here is what I got so far

I will use it for 3 things

Going to make 15 liters of extract
Add to my Bokashi style compost and then add to wormbins
Compost Bokashi style and add straight to soil for my next notill soil bed that will cook for 1 month.