If I use potassium silicate (Pro-Tekt) as a nutrient...am I still Organic?

Is this correct?

According to the Organic Bible, "aqueous potassium silicate" can be used only as an "insecticide" or for "plant disease control" only. NOT AS A PLANT OR SOIL AMENDMENT/NUTRITION.

7 CFR 205.601 - Synthetic substances allowed for use in organic crop production.

In accordance with restrictions specified in this section, the following synthetic substances may be used in organic crop production: Provided, That, use of such substances do not contribute to contamination of crops, soil, or water....

(e) As insecticides (including acaricides or mite control).
(1) Ammonium carbonate—for use as bait in insect traps only, no direct contact with crop or soil.
(2) Aqueous potassium silicate (CAS #-1312-76-1)—the silica, used in the manufacture of potassium silicate, must be sourced from naturally occurring sand.
(3) Boric acid—structural pest control, no direct contact with organic food or crops.
(4) Copper sulfate—for use as tadpole shrimp control in aquatic rice production, is limited to one application per field during any 24-month period. Application rates are limited to levels which do not increase baseline soil test values for copper over a timeframe agreed upon by the producer and accredited certifying agent.
(5) Elemental sulfur.
(6) Lime sulfur—including calcium polysulfide.
(7) Oils, horticultural—narrow range oils as dormant, suffocating, and summer oils.
(8) Soaps, insecticidal.
(9) Sticky traps/barriers.
(10) Sucrose octanoate esters (CAS #s—42922-74-7; 58064-47-4)—in accordance with approved labeling.

and....

(i) As plant disease control.
(1) Aqueous potassium silicate (CAS #-1312-76-1)—the silica, used in the manufacture of potassium silicate, must be sourced from naturally occurring sand.
(2) Coppers, fixed—copper hydroxide, copper oxide, copper oxychloride, includes products exempted from EPA tolerance, Provided, That, copper-based materials must be used in a manner that minimizes accumulation in the soil and shall not be used as herbicides.
(3) Copper sulfate—Substance must be used in a manner that minimizes accumulation of copper in the soil.
(4) Hydrated lime.
(5) Hydrogen peroxide.
(6) Lime sulfur.
(7) Oils, horticultural, narrow range oils as dormant, suffocating, and summer oils.
(8) Peracetic acid—for use to control fire blight bacteria.
(9) Potassium bicarbonate.
(10) Elemental sulfur.
(11) Streptomycin, for fire blight control in apples and pears only.
(12) Tetracycline, for fire blight control only and for use only until October 21, 2012.

Anyone see potassium silicate in the below list of permitted synthetic items?

(j) As plant or soil amendments.
(1) Aquatic plant extracts (other than hydrolyzed)—Extraction process is limited to the use of potassium hydroxide or sodium hydroxide; solvent amount used is limited to that amount necessary for extraction.
(2) Elemental sulfur.
(3) Humic acids—naturally occurring deposits, water and alkali extracts only.
(4) Lignin sulfonate—chelating agent, dust suppressant, floatation agent.
(5) Magnesium sulfate—allowed with a documented soil deficiency.
(6) Micronutrients—not to be used as a defoliant, herbicide, or desiccant. Those made from nitrates or chlorides are not allowed. Soil deficiency must be documented by testing.
(i) Soluble boron products.
(ii) Sulfates, carbonates, oxides, or silicates of zinc, copper, iron, manganese, molybdenum, selenium, and cobalt.
(7) Liquid fish products—can be pH adjusted with sulfuric, citric or phosphoric acid. The amount of acid used shall not exceed the minimum needed to lower the pH to 3.5.
(8) Vitamins, B1, C, and E.
(9) Sulfurous acid (CAS # 7782-99-2) for on-farm generation of substance utilizing 99% purity elemental sulfur per paragraph (j)(2) of this section.

It is a good product and many here use it. Calling it organically acceptable is a matter of politics. California's organic program is very political.
There are alternatives.
Horsetail and rice hulls contain silica as does diatomaceous earth. How much is made available to the plant is up to question. I seem to get results using a combination of horsetail and DE. Not as noticeable as Protekt but I'm not convinced I need that much. A little helps with the heat. A lot IDK.
One needs to decide for themselves. I don't know if the manufacturing of silica is any more or less earth friendly than the mining of DE. To me that criteria is far more important then what the state says. My preference is for the horsetail.
The states organic program is too political to accept at face value.

It's not just California's organic program, though. It all starts with the NOP, and much of that seems to be based on the Oregon Tilth program. In fact, whenever I have questions of my agricultural inspectors about organics they refer me to Oregon Tilth for the information. And! IIRC, CCOF and Oregon Tilth are going to be combined into one organisation, perhaps with reciprocity.

EFour20 is asking this question for a very specific reason, and it's not to look for alternatives. Let's sit back and watch how this one plays out.

HH...I agree 100%. Organic governing bodies are all political! Take OMRI, pay a fee and you get to say "OMRI Approved"...follow the money.

BTW...those are the NOP Fed Regs I quoted. I understand regional and state organizations can be "more lenient"--but seldom "more restrictive".

I use Pro-Tekt as well--but I have always disclosed my 98% Organic status. Just curious of the logic of how one claims to be 100% Organic--but incorporate "forbidden nutrients" in their regime.

I love Fossil Shell Flour (food grade DE obtained from fresh water sources and no state sales tax). Nice levels of silica, aluminum, calcium, iron, and magnesium; diversity is my friend.

EclipseFour20 said:

HH...I agree 100%. Organic governing bodies are all political! Take OMRI, pay a fee and you get to say "OMRI Approved"...follow the money.

BTW...those are the NOP Fed Regs I quoted. I understand regional and state organizations can be "more lenient"--but seldom "more restrictive".

I use Pro-Tekt as well--but I have always disclosed my 98% Organic status. Just curious of the logic of how one claims to be 100% Organic--but incorporate "forbidden nutrients" in their regime.

I love Fossil Shell Flour (food grade DE obtained from fresh water sources and no state sales tax). Nice levels of silica, aluminum, calcium, iron, and magnesium; diversity is my friend.

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That has two names, depending on the how of how it came to be. It's either cognitive dissonance, or straight up lying.

I already knew that it's not part of an organic feeding program, but then I'm not a purist, though I do try my best.

EclipseFour20 said:

HH...I agree 100%. Organic governing bodies are all political! Take OMRI, pay a fee and you get to say "OMRI Approved"...follow the money.

BTW...those are the NOP Fed Regs I quoted. I understand regional and state organizations can be "more lenient"--but seldom "more restrictive".

I use Pro-Tekt as well--but I have always disclosed my 98% Organic status. Just curious of the logic of how one claims to be 100% Organic--but incorporate "forbidden nutrients" in their regime.

I love Fossil Shell Flour (food grade DE obtained from fresh water sources and no state sales tax). Nice levels of silica, aluminum, calcium, iron, and magnesium; diversity is my friend.

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Isn't aluminum bad for plants??????

We all know the answer to this post. I think he posted the answer in his post.

Can not be used as a nute amendment but can be used as pest/disease control. Simple.
Next?

sunnydog said:

Isn't aluminum bad for plants??????

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All things in moderation I guess. We all know about usual 17 elements: Macro Nutes (C, H, O, Ca, K, Mg, N, S, and P) and Micro Nutes aka Trace Elements (Cl, B, Cu, Fe, Mn, Mo, Ni, and Zn). Did you ever wonder where Silica fit in? How about under the classification of Beneficial Nutes.

Aluminum (Al), cobalt (Co), sodium (Na), selenium (Se), and
silicon (Si) are considered beneficial elements for plants: they
are not required by all plants but can promote plant growth and
may be essential for particular taxa. These beneficial elements
have been reported to enhance resistance to biotic stresses
such as pathogens and herbivory, and to abiotic stresses such
as drought, salinity, and nutrient toxicity or deficiency. The
beneficial effects of low doses of Al, Co, Na and Se have
received little attention compared to toxic effects that typically
occur at higher concentrations.....


While toxic at high levels, Al has been shown to be
beneficial to some plant species when supplied at low
concentration. As early as 1937, Al was shown to increase
growth in Miscanthus sinensis (maiden grass) [6]. Since
then, multiple species, especially those native to acidic
soils, have shown enhanced growth in the presence of Al,
often coinciding with increased leaf phosphorus (P) concentrations
[7]. In the presence of Al the tea plant,
Camellia sinensis, showed increased antioxidant enzyme
activity, which may contribute to increased plant growth
[8]. Melastoma malabathricum uses secreted mucilage to
accumulate high levels of Al from soils with low Al
availability; the accumulated Al increases root and shoot
growth, and prevents iron (Fe) toxicty [9–11]. It has been
suggested that Al is essential for the growth of M. malabathricum
[10]. Other species have also been shown to
accumulate Al to substantial levels, typically much higher
than the surrounding vegetation. Jansen et al. [12] proposed
that plants with more than 1000 mg Al per kg dry
weight in their leaf tissues be termed hyperaccumulators.
Hyperaccumulators may use the Al in their tissues to
deter herbivory, similar to other metals that are hyperaccumulated
by plants. In support of this hypothesis, Al
application prevented herbivory of tall fescue (Festuca
arundinacea) [13]. Aluminum accumulators often account
for a high percentage of plants growing on acidic soils and
it is possible that a plant’s ability to accumulate Al is a
competitive advantage on soils with high Al availability
[14].


Source: June 2009 Current Opinion in Plant Biology. Free author version here (and great article)--->http://www.seaagri.com/docs/Physiological%20Functions%20of%20Beneficial%20Elements.pdf

Cheers!

EclipseFour20 said:

HH...I agree 100%. Organic governing bodies are all political! Take OMRI, pay a fee and you get to say "OMRI Approved"...follow the money.

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Almost agree 100%, Oregon Tilth is the pegholder for everybody else in the PNW, but they aren't without their flaws, many substances were/will be, grandfathered onto the acceptable list. I actually use/follow their sustainable landscaping guidelines for clients, I never heard of Organic chlorine but its on the accepted list, I dont touch it usually. However, for OMRI, not surprised, but need a little more proof in the pudding so to speak, but they are in Eugene.

Is this organic?

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What is Organic???

As far as organic chemistry, the term organic means something that contains carbon [ or some will include, carbon uptake]

Commercially, organic tends to mean stuff that isn't made with fossil fuels or articially made [synthetic] chemicals. Is rockdust organic? Is water organic? Is chlorine organic, some say yes, some say no. Follow the money trail is correcto mundo in the retail sector.

I love Fossil Shell Flour (food grade DE obtained from fresh water sources and no state sales tax). Nice levels of silica, aluminum, calcium, iron, and magnesium; diversity is my friend.

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I love the DE too, we def can agree on that too, but don't plants uptake aluminum combined with other minerals? do they extract pure aluminum? is it more what mineral is piggybacking with aluminum that causes aluminum toxicity more frequently?

Doing some reading, came across a link to PQ's revised petition to get it approved in 2006
http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELPRDC5057539

"Besides providing more information about mode of action, efficacy, and including the
latest research on soluble silicon, there are two important differences between this and the
original petition that we had submitted back in 2002. The first is that we are now calling
.- the substance “Aqueous Potassium Silicate” instead of “Potassium Silicate.” This should
distinguish it from fly ash and slag by-product silicates that also could possibly be called
potassium silicate"

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5. Manufacturing Procedure:
' In the U.S., soluble potassium silicate is manufactured by combining mined, high purity
silica sand (SiO2) and potassium carbonate (KZCO3) (derived from mined potassium
chloride) such that the SiO2/K20 = 2.5 (by weight) and heating to 1900-2300°F. The
potassium carbonate and silicon dioxide fuse to form a molten potassium silicate with the
evolution of carbon dioxide gas. The molten potassium silicate is dissolved in water to
form the aqueous potassium silicate having a 2.5 SiO2/K20 weight ratio, or it can be
cooled to form potassium silicate glass which is later dissolved in water to form a 2.5
ratio aqueous potassium silicate

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. Examples of crop use for Aqueous Potassium Silicate include but are not limited to
those listed below. Pesticide applications would defer to EPA label for detailed list of
crops, uses, and application methods.
'
Application rates of approximately 1300 — 2600 ppm SiO2/acre as a foliar spray;
100-250 ppm SiO2 in hydroponic solutions; and soil dreneh using a 1300 - 2600 ppm
SiO2 solution. All should be in accordance with EPA label specifications.

Plant Disease Control:
' Powdery Mildew: grapes, cucurbits, ornamentals
' Botrytis: blueberry
' Root diseases such as pythium, fusarium crown and root rot: cucurbits, peppers
' Turf diseases including dollar spot, gray leaf spot, brown patch, and powdery mildew

Insecticide/Miticide:
- For suppression of mites: pome fruit, nut crops, stone fruit, grapes, beans
' For suppression of Whiteflies, aphids, and other soft-bodied insects: lettuce, beans,
ornamentals

Plant Amendment
' Application rate as a nutrient solution for hydroponic production is 100-250 ppm SiO2
or as desired for K10 supplementation.
' Example crops include cucurbits, tomato, strawberry, ornamental

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b) Toxicitv and environmental persistence: Potassium silicate is not a Toxic Chemical
under SARA Title III Section 313. Potassium silicate is completely soluble in water and
yields potassium ions and silica that are indistinguishable from potassium and silica from
natural sources.

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George--I thought there were more concerns other than the high energy required to process the sand. Things like if alternative sources of silica already exist and the inorganic trait of potassium sulfate itself (being highly soluble and not used in its naturally occurring form).

From the NOSB Board on Potassium Silicate--

However, organic law generally does not tolerate the listing of soil amendments that are not naturally occurring in the form
that they are used. While the National List allows the use of some synthetic silica-based fertilizers (§205.601(j)(6)(ii)), they
are allowed only as micronutrient amendments as a means to deliver trace metals and are not intended as silica fertilizers per
se. A strong argument can be made that the substance is ultimately not compatible with organic agriculture based on the fact
that it is a fertilizer of high solubility and is not naturally occurring. Furthermore, silica fertilization is largely unnecessary
in most soils due to the continuous replenishment by natural soil reserves. Where silica amendments are needed, the
availability of a naturally occurring generic substitute (glauconite) makes its inclusion on the National List difficult to
justify.


All TAP reviewers agreed that the petitioned substance should be considered synthetic. Two reviewers felt it should be
prohibited. One of these reviewers cited the nature of potassium silicate as a highly soluble synthetic fertilizer, and also
questioned its effectiveness as a fungicide. The other dissenting reviewer raised similar concerns, questioning the need for silica
amendments in organic systems and the legitimacy of supporting evidence. Both of these reviewers indicated that use of the
substance in organics should be revisited if and when the need, effectiveness, and mode of action are better demonstrated. The
third reviewer was in favor of adding the substance to the List, with annotations. The reviewer viewed the potential benefits as
significant, and felt that the substance ultimately is compatible with a system of organic agriculture.


Source: National Organic Standards Board Technical Advisory Panel Review on Potassium Silicate http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELPRDC5057629

In complications like this one...glad I am 98% Organic. Applying Best Practices and Lesson Learned from others...is not cheating.

EclipseFour20 said:

Did you ever wonder where Silica fit in?

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Ummmm, no I haven't.

Eagle420,

Bored?

If you don't like the thread, don't comment. You guys can play with each other upstairs.
Few use silica as a fungicide. Don't know if I'd call it a fertilizer either. It doesn't enhance growth. More of a shield. It's something I quit using, approved or not. It does occur naturally.
Anyway, time to get of my high horse and put some organic fuel in the tank after I finish typing on my squirrel powered keyboard.

There's a locally made product near me that is made from volcanic tuff. Montana ready-gro Si?? I'll have to swing by the store as it's not on the website. I was under the impression that it is simply a by product of them mining volcanic tuff for use as landscape gravel. The only thing listed on the side is Si.

I'll try to get this product posted up with more details as soon as I can.

And....does anyone know if the silica in Pro-Tekt is sourced "from naturally occurring sand". Like I mentioned earlier I am 98% Organic and I like the results using Pro-Tekt as BOTH a foliar spray and soil/plant nutrient. It sure would be nice if was a permissible Organic Product.

If not...then I need to find a replacement when my gallon of Pro-Tekt is empty. I am like, 98% Organic....and I try to play by the rules...rules, what are rules?, thems just guidelines (pirate voice). Right?

98% organic, 100% troll...not the worst combo in the world.

EclipseFour20 said:

And....does anyone know if the silica in Pro-Tekt is sourced "from naturally occurring sand". Like I mentioned earlier I am 98% Organic and I like the results using Pro-Tekt as BOTH a foliar spray and soil/plant nutrient. It sure would be nice if was a permissible Organic Product.

If not...then I need to find a replacement when my gallon of Pro-Tekt is empty. I am like, 98% Organic....and I try to play by the rules...rules, what are rules?, thems just guidelines (pirate voice). Right?

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Yes it's from naturally occurring sand.

thats why i use food grade diatomaceous earth

natural pesticide (no it doesn't hurt earthworms) and its got silica

I've been mixing rice hulls into my soils and coco coir. Haven't done an indoor coir grow in two years, been growing soil. The hulls don't break down very quickly, so I can't say it's readily available Si. I would say it's eventually available Si. Either way, they're renewable and fucking CHEAP, the only way they could be made better would be if they were free and someone else did the mixing for me.