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DaveTheNewbie
another example of coco in PPKs and sporadic problems?
can you elaborate / show a grow log / whatever ?
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big plant ppk
- Thread starter delta9nxs
- Start date
another example of coco in PPKs and sporadic problems?
can you elaborate / show a grow log / whatever ?
Never done a log.
I wouldn't recommend fine coco for a ppk, I believe the brand was called just coir, rinsed and charged. My perlite/coco mix was around 35% air capacity using the solo cup test. I was using stacked 10 gallon rugged totes with about 8 gallon of medium, and ~64 oz pulse every 30 min, which I adjusted upwards towards 45-1 hour once I started having drainage issues. The totes worked alright but the bottom ones had started bulging from the weight of the medium and water by the end. I was worried they could split or start leaking, or affecting the air gap height, so I've scrapped them and gone with 3.5 gallon bottom buckets and larger wide round pots sorta like what d9 is running, but those tubs could still be used as a medium container on top of the buckets.
It wasn't really sporadic problems, 3/4 were affected. 1 of the four plants almost died and stalled out a week or two into the stretch, never fully recovered, a second had what appeared to be nutrient deficiencies, I believe caused by root problems as the root zone was soupy and didn't look great by the end. One was the best plant I've ever grown(it drained well, I'm still not sure exactly why this one had no problems and the others all locked up, perhaps a higher ratio of perlite? But it had the best root zone at the end by far, and no pooling). The last was pretty damn good but also probably had a little too wet of a root zone and showed slight deficiencies on some leaves, I believe it would have done better if it was draining better.
SecondAttempt
Active member
So what's up with this new DE you were supposed to tell us about today?
i'm against stratifying media. you may get lucky and it may work all the way or you may not.
each choice of medium has it's own unique set of properties and with that a set of variables that you need to know and understand so that you can fine tune the system to your particular situation.
when and if you do add something it should be evenly mixed to get predictable results.
but mixing anything with coco fiber could cause hydraulic blocks because coco fiber is composed of little coils that can trap fine particle.
imagine a 3-d image of coils with trapped fine particles distributed evenly throughout the tailpiece. the fine particles are trapped in them but not dense enough to stop the flow of water moving at a slow or moderate speed. the water moves around them
then imagine what might happen to it if a big, heavy slug of water suddenly fills the tailpiece with a lot of weight behind it.
in your mind you can almost see the material in the bottom compress and as it does so the fine particles that were formerly evenly distributed are now packed tightly together with the coir.
forming a plug that will probably eventually drain but meantime the plant is in danger of drowning.
i did a 1/1/1 mix of coco/perlite/turface and it plugged so good that 24 hours later it still had not drained at all. like a bath tub stopper.
each choice of medium has it's own unique set of properties and with that a set of variables that you need to know and understand so that you can fine tune the system to your particular situation.
when and if you do add something it should be evenly mixed to get predictable results.
but mixing anything with coco fiber could cause hydraulic blocks because coco fiber is composed of little coils that can trap fine particle.
imagine a 3-d image of coils with trapped fine particles distributed evenly throughout the tailpiece. the fine particles are trapped in them but not dense enough to stop the flow of water moving at a slow or moderate speed. the water moves around them
then imagine what might happen to it if a big, heavy slug of water suddenly fills the tailpiece with a lot of weight behind it.
in your mind you can almost see the material in the bottom compress and as it does so the fine particles that were formerly evenly distributed are now packed tightly together with the coir.
forming a plug that will probably eventually drain but meantime the plant is in danger of drowning.
i did a 1/1/1 mix of coco/perlite/turface and it plugged so good that 24 hours later it still had not drained at all. like a bath tub stopper.
this is from autozone!. it has a different color because it is from a different mine and so has a different group of trace elements. this is a 33 lb bag.
it is much harder than the 8822 napa stuff on the right. it is fired at a higher temperature than the 8822. i can roll the 8822 in my fingers and make it break up. like turface i can't break this stuff.
it is very dirty and after screening i got almost exactly 4 gals of material. not too bad for 7 bucks. i believe it is infinitely reusable like turface.
the autozone stuff on the left, turface, and 8822, all before screening.
i haven't washed it yet or done a porosity check but it looks good. i like it.
editing to remove erroneous reference. said diatomite should have said calcined clay.
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the first pic is for anyone that thought i was bullshitting about building a 25 ft slide.
the second just shows the turface after screening. this shows both the extent of loss and the relative sizing.
another brand name for turface. also from the profile company sharing the same msds and listed as an alternate trade name.
the second just shows the turface after screening. this shows both the extent of loss and the relative sizing.
another brand name for turface. also from the profile company sharing the same msds and listed as an alternate trade name.
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SecondAttempt
Active member
First off that slide is awesome... I will definitely copy that when i have the land... THANKS D9
Now I have spent months staring at that AZ Oil Absorbent, never thought to grab the MSDS but it does not say Diatamaceous Earth on the bag in fact I believe it is Montmorillonite Clay. I've seen varying reviews of it as a soil conditioner online some say yay, some say nay.
I've really been torn on what to do about media moving forward so I'll snag a bag of this tomorrow to post my findings in case different regions get different product. I'm in the northeast.
Now I have spent months staring at that AZ Oil Absorbent, never thought to grab the MSDS but it does not say Diatamaceous Earth on the bag in fact I believe it is Montmorillonite Clay. I've seen varying reviews of it as a soil conditioner online some say yay, some say nay.
I've really been torn on what to do about media moving forward so I'll snag a bag of this tomorrow to post my findings in case different regions get different product. I'm in the northeast.
Thanks D9 for the inspiration! I just found some calcinated clay! 40lbs for $6.40 + tax.
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/d....oap?ck=Search_N0431_-1_-1&pt=N0431&ppt=C1941
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/d....oap?ck=Search_N0431_-1_-1&pt=N0431&ppt=C1941
SecondAttempt
Active member
I just remembered the local little league fields use 7133 in place of turface so I double checked some things... Turface is Montmorillonite clay as per MSDS so rock on with 7133 from AZ.
7133 is damn near Turface. You rock D9.
On a side note I've been fighting fungus gnats which had me thinking DE... how do they like montmorillonite clay?
7133 is damn near Turface. You rock D9.
On a side note I've been fighting fungus gnats which had me thinking DE... how do they like montmorillonite clay?
you are right! i used the wrong msds from their website. it is calcined clay.
i'll wash it and do a porosity test tomorrow.
advanced has a version too! this is cool because you can't turn a corner without running into an auto parts store anymore.
using straight calcined clay i don't see many.
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DaveTheNewbie
bastards the lot of you ... access to decent shit on ever street corner ... bastards i tells ya !
nice finds lads
nice finds lads
http://www.moltan.com/msds/MSDS.htm
here are all the msds's' on moltan's products.
in the columns marked "clay middleton" is the stuff bobble found at o'reilly's. it has the same msds as the stuff i got from az.
hey dave, what do the auto parts stores there sell for spill clean up?
the moltan company makes some DE stuff too from a site in nevada. you have a big DE deposit southwest of brisbane where the 50 bag load comes from you were talking about.
but i bet the auto parts stores have some of the same shit.
you guys do have cars over there, right? and they need parts when they break so somebody is selling auto parts.
in the US i have found three mines so far. one in middleton, tn, one in ripley, ms, and one in southeast georgia. with three different companies mining it.
here are all the msds's' on moltan's products.
in the columns marked "clay middleton" is the stuff bobble found at o'reilly's. it has the same msds as the stuff i got from az.
hey dave, what do the auto parts stores there sell for spill clean up?
the moltan company makes some DE stuff too from a site in nevada. you have a big DE deposit southwest of brisbane where the 50 bag load comes from you were talking about.
but i bet the auto parts stores have some of the same shit.
you guys do have cars over there, right? and they need parts when they break so somebody is selling auto parts.
in the US i have found three mines so far. one in middleton, tn, one in ripley, ms, and one in southeast georgia. with three different companies mining it.
Where Dave is from, they ride kangaroos bareback.
D
DaveTheNewbie
very true!
1) we do have cars
2) we do have auto parts stores that sell shit like sheep skin covers and silly lights
3) auto part stores dont sell much thats mechanical minded, adn of all the stores i have spoken to (many) none have a clue what DE is, nor do they sell spill clean stuff.
Your expected to empty your oil into a container rather than drop it on the ground and try to clean it up
just wanted to say that this is the best price so far. 40 lbs for 6.40. i paid 6.95 for 33 lbs.
i think the turface is cleaner and you get more usable per volume after screening but they just raised my price to 12.49 a bag at the turf store. 50 lb bag.
oreillys .16 per pound raw
autozone .21
turface from turf supply .25
we need to measure the yield in gallons of usable material from all sources to get the real cost of it for comparison.
i got 4 gals of usable from one 33 lb bag of az's so that is almost 1.74 per gal.
i'll do a bag of turface soon.
I'm not about to make a 25' slide... the neighbors would wonder what I'm doing... but I'll buy some thrifty-sorb today and screen it. I'll get back to you guys later on a final yield.
