Thoughts on a new room design, input pls.

[DaveTheNewbie]

Combined EC of the runoff was .15? If that's the case then you leached out all the nutes and you need to feed them with an EC of 1.2 pH 5.5-6.0 before they start starving and you have more problems.

its a week till harvest and a little flush wont do them any harm, the blumat will kick in soon and all will be back to normal.

(famous last words)

Hey Dave
Far from an expert here but I can tell you what worked for me without flushing. I ran Lucas in coco which was a big improvement from when I just followed label directions. I still had issues like you are. Then I read that Lucas has to be one third strength in coco or soiless...or you can feed every third watering. I had no more deficiencies or lockouts after.

cant feed every third watering with the system I have, but im running about 1/2 strength. Your not the first to suggest that may still be a bit high. Especially in this heat when they are sucking down the water. I think I will experiment with this a bit.

 

[bobblehead]

the blumat will kick in soon and all will be back to normal.

(famous last words)

Good call on the flush... lol That's what I get for only reading bits and pieces...

Good luck with those blumats... They're fun.

 

[Mister_D]

Dave - where to start.

1. Defoilation - don't take more than 30% of the entire leaf mass at one time. Don't do it more than twice per week, once per week is all some strains can handle. This will prevent stunting IME.

2. Drip clean - I've grown in coco for years without ever using the stuff, and no I don't ever have run off or do any flushing until the end. I tried drip clean once, but it did nothing for me but increase my costs. This is an agruement I try to stay out of, but I doubt anyone will try and argue the health of my plants all the way til chop either. Keep your EC @ .8-1.2 at all times and you should never have buildup/lockout issues, or the need for drip clean.

3. Blumats & lucas - I think what is happening here is the difference in sizes of measuring spoons/scoops being used are affecting the concentration. There is a reason scientists use weights and ml's instead of teaspoons .

4. The idea that plants produce "waste" products is a joke to anyone with a small amount of plant knowledge. Think about it this way. If plants were producing waste for the last umpteen thousand years, how is it that any plants are still growing?

5. Study CEC and you will understand coco much better. There is a very specific reason I recommended you flush with light nutes instead of straight water (CEC). The fact that your ph is so low just shows that I was correct about the lockout from too much nute in the root zone (higher concentration of nutes drives the ph down). I would recommend you now water til run off with maxibloom mixed to 1.2 EC, then continue to water from now until flush with .8-1 EC maxibloom

Edit - just saw you only have a week until harvest, just plain ph adjusted water from here on out will be fine.

 

[FlowerFarmer]

Nice post.

I'm following your advice Mr. D..

ultimately I think any blumat setup should be built to accommodate lots of run-off so that one can periodically (or if necessary) drench the shit out of them with diluted base nute.

 

[bobblehead]

4. The idea that plants produce "waste" products is a joke to anyone with a small amount of plant knowledge. Think about it this way. If plants were producing waste for the last umpteen thousand years, how is it that any plants are still growing? .

The waste products of a plant are 02 and H2O in the form of water vapor.... You stand corrected sir.

 

[DHF]

The waste products of a plant are 02 and H2O in the form of water vapor.... You stand corrected sir.

Yes Bobbles.....but yas forgot 1 aspect......

Plants eat CO2 and shit out O2 and excess relative humidity in the form of water vapor during lights on with a dialed environment and is the reason life on Earth exists.............but with.........

Plants during lights off their waste product is excess CO2 and water vapor the plant didn`t assimilate and metabolize during lights on......that said.........

Prolly where Mr D`s head was at in disregarding that aspect tryin ta help Dave , but......

I`m sure he`s aware even though not stated........anyways.....Just tryin ta help Dave`s Aussie down under ass towards dialage , so.......

It`s all good......Freds.............

 

[Mister_D]

The waste products of a plant are 02 and H2O in the form of water vapor.... You stand corrected sir.

Yes Bobbles.....but yas forgot 1 aspect......

Plants eat CO2 and shit out O2 and excess relative humidity in the form of water vapor during lights on with a dialed environment and is the reason life on Earth exists.............but with.........

Plants during lights off their waste product is excess CO2 and water vapor the plant didn`t assimilate and metabolize during lights on......that said.........

Prolly where Mr D`s head was at in disregarding that aspect tryin ta help Dave , but......

I`m sure he`s aware even though not stated........anyways.....Just tryin ta help Dave`s Aussie down under ass towards dialage , so.......

It`s all good......Freds.............

Actually I believe dave was referring to the myth that a plants roots expel "waste" which toxifies the media if it isn't periodically flushed.

 

[Ichabod Crane]

My plants give off fungus nats, just ask anyone with one of my clones.

 

[hotboxes]

Dave I run maxi at 7g/gal from the time they have 2 sets of true leaves on, in coco,with rain water. never have any problems unless my ph swings which isn't too often. I also get the fungus nats. from time to time depends on the kind of coco I have used some of the better stuff never had any more so with the cheaper shit.

Just got my PPK set up in my new tent I will try an post a pic maybe tomorrow been a long 2 days getting everything set up but she is rockin now.

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

Holy shit what an injection of awesomeness into my thread in the last 2 days !

1. Defoilation - don't take more than 30% of the entire leaf mass at one time. Don't do it more than twice per week, once per week is all some strains can handle. This will prevent stunting IME.

I am going to follow this religiously from now on. All I really paid attention to before now was "don't defo before stretch"

2. Drip clean - I've grown in coco for years without ever using the stuff, and no I don't ever have run off or do any flushing until the end. I tried drip clean once, but it did nothing for me but increase my costs. This is an agruement I try to stay out of, but I doubt anyone will try and argue the health of my plants all the way til chop either. Keep your EC @ .8-1.2 at all times and you should never have buildup/lockout issues, or the need for drip clean.

your the second person in 2 days to say this about drip clean. While I don't have a problem with using drip clean if it works, one less ingredient if not needed is always a win.

I live in a very hot part of the world, and I have a theory about EC. When its hot the plant wants more water. proportionally the EC should be lower as the plant isn't after the nutes, just the water. Makes a Dehuey seem more important too. Im going to try an EC of 1.0 instead of 1.3 and see what happens. The #1 rule of hydro is "less is more"

3. Blumats & lucas - I think what is happening here is the difference in sizes of measuring spoons/scoops being used are affecting the concentration. There is a reason scientists use weights and ml's instead of teaspoons .

I only use ml, L, and g. My formula is 30g maxibloom per 30L of RO water. Plus a few other things at 1 or 2 g per 30 litres.

4. The idea that plants produce "waste" products is a joke to anyone with a small amount of plant knowledge. Think about it this way. If plants were producing waste for the last umpteen thousand years, how is it that any plants are still growing?

well I fell for the joke, as did a lot of other "experts" around these parts. I think the theory around here is that the plant doesnt use all the nutes because some are unabsorbable, and that's what builds up.

5. Study CEC and you will understand coco much better. There is a very specific reason I recommended you flush with light nutes instead of straight water (CEC). The fact that your ph is so low just shows that I was correct about the lockout from too much nute in the root zone (higher concentration of nutes drives the ph down).

ive read a bit about this, and its one reason long term I want to move away from coco. pure water or water in rock seems cleaner to me. just my opinion.

Actually I believe dave was referring to the myth that a plants roots expel "waste" which toxifies the media if it isn't periodically flushed.

yup correct sir

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

Ok a complete change of subject, with pictures

I have never grown a plant that is taller than the screen before. What I have now is this :

The roof of the tent is exactly 2 metres high. The tips are touching the roof. Stretch is still in full swing and will be for another week or so.

This means that things are going to go badly. So I guess I have to tie it down at this stage, which is not something I have done before. Hope I don't break anything.

here is a bigger picture :

BUT I also notice that the same strain, vegged for the same time under the same conditions is waaaay bigger taller wider healthier and all around better than ever before.

Here is a side view showing that the 2 plants are easily covering 180 degrees around the light column :

The only difference is that its a 7 gal pot with 2 blumats rather than a 3 gal pot with 1 blumat.

It seems to me that EITHER OR BOTH the pot size or the blumat volume is holding me back with the smaller setups. This alone tells me that from now on I would be mad not to go the bigger pot and double water source.

I just have to tie down more.

EDIT : after I tied it down, still very rubbery and easily bent :

 

[bobblehead]

You'd be surprised how big of a plant you can grow in 2-3 gallons of medium with a good dtw feed system... Or even recirculating like a ppk. Pic courtesy of poopyteabags. These are in net pot lids.

 

[Ichabod Crane]

You should start training your plants. You have a lot to trim out by the looks of the picture.

Take the stems and start to bend them towards the light over several days. This will put the best buds toward the light. Keep them back from the light so they don't get bleached from the heat and intense light. This can be done if they are stretching by tying them a little higher on the rack if they stretch to much. This will also bring some of the higher branches back down some.

All that crap on the back will have to go if you don't want larf. It must be trimmed off after stretch. It is hard to do I know I struggle with the urge to not trim it off.

I would take some of the mass off the back now while it is still stretching. Do not take very much, I repeat do not take very much. If you do you will stunt the plant and delay the finish time. What I do is maybe 10-15 leaves or suckers every other day. Take them from the back of the plant where the light is not getting to. This will get the plant ready for the end of stretch when you will take a larger amount at one time. It will also open up that area a little to get better air flow.

 

[Mister_D]

Holy shit what an injection of awesomeness into my thread in the last 2 days !



I am going to follow this religiously from now on. All I really paid attention to before now was "don't defo before stretch"

The advice is somewhat strain dependent. Some strains won't tolerate defoilation at all, but most do just fine if no more 30% is removed. All i'm saying is watch and adjust according to your plants reaction, no advice is written in stone.

your the second person in 2 days to say this about drip clean. While I don't have a problem with using drip clean if it works, one less ingredient if not needed is always a win.

Lots of old heads have been growing very healthy plants long before drip clean ever came about. Can't say for sure, but drip clean seems like nothing more than a strong chelate. This allows people to feed at higher nute levels without experiencing lock out After all, nute companies are always looking for ways to get you to use/buy more product, why not sell you something that allows for just that. There are a shit ton of people claiming "results", but I personally doubt that drip clean is doing as much to improve the garden as just adjusting feed to proper concentration and ratio would. All my opinion/experience though, if you wanna use drip clean more power to ya.....

I live in a very hot part of the world, and I have a theory about EC. When its hot the plant wants more water. proportionally the EC should be lower as the plant isn't after the nutes, just the water. Makes a Dehuey seem more important too. Im going to try an EC of 1.0 instead of 1.3 and see what happens. The #1 rule of hydro is "less is more"

You are absolutely correct here. Higher temps lead to increased transpiration, but not increased nute requirements. This is another reason to start at a lower concentration, gives you more leeway before your plants start burning. Less is more applies to every form of growing, not just hydro. EC NEVER needs to be higher than 1.2 in any grow method. Just ask heath Robinson if you don't believe me . I never have a need to go above 1 EC personally, and usually keep things right around .8 EC full cycle.

I only use ml, L, and g. My formula is 30g maxibloom per 30L of RO water. Plus a few other things at 1 or 2 g per 30 liters.

for doing it the right way. Still EC/PPM, and your plants is what you need to be paying attention to, the recipe is just a base to work from. lucas/ph formula was also designed for a hydro system using media that doesn't retain nutrients (i.e hydrotron flood/drain tables). Clearly 30g is too much for your plants and the ec/ppm/your plants reflect this. Try keeping your feed in the .8-1 EC range from clone til flush.

well I fell for the joke, as did a lot of other "experts" around these parts. I think the theory around here is that the plant doesn't use all the nutes because some are unabsorbable, and that's what builds up.

This is actually true, but what alot of the so called "experts" fail to understand is why those nutes become unavailable in the first place. I assure you they aren't coming out of the bottle that way . The simple answer is it's usually caused by over feeding and not or being able to flush properly. Really it becomes a compound problem. First if a grower is overfeeding a plant it's whole life there will be nutrients that bind together and lock each other out. Then because of the excess nutrients the ph in the root zone will be lower overall, so that has to be compensated for with some form of ph up. At the end flushing isn't nearly as effective because ratios are or will likely become unbalanced, further locking out more nutrients. All of this is a easily manageable problem the first run with the media. The real problem, and where the myth comes in is, when you try to reuse that media. Because you are starting with poor ph conditions and an imbalanced nutrient profile that just perpetuates the problem. I hear this being referred to as salt buildup alot. Really it's just wasted fertilizer from improper feeding practices. Study CEC and you'll understand all of this. Simply put though, every media has some potential to hold onto nutrients. Coco and peat for instance have the ability to store relatively large amounts of nutrients (read potential for build up), vs. say hydrotron or perlite which hold very little nutrients (low potential for build up). What this adds up to for a grower is just different feeding strengths to achieve the same concentration at the root zone. Because medias like coco and peat hold on to a release nutes you should feed at a lower concentration to account for the build up. Now if your growing on hydrotron there is no build up so you feed at a higher strength all the time. This keeps your plants at the same root zone EC as coco or peat. Herb's nutrient requirements don't change just because you change media. However how you deliver those nutrients is different for every media.

ive read a bit about this, and its one reason long term I want to move away from coco. pure water or water in rock seems cleaner to me. just my opinion.

CEC applies to every growing media. Personal preference definitely factors in though, that's why there's a million different ways to skin a mule.....

yup correct sir

 

[DHF]

Dripclean is insurance for the over achievers that think more is more runnin higher nutrient concentrations Mr D......especially when runnin coco with that certain "CEC" yas`ll be runnin up on at some point in the game guaranteed........

Glad yas`ve had the knowledge ta dodge and not need the product , but trust me.......It`s changed MANY growers bottom lines over the last several yrs it`s been available with no negative results.......but......

I fully agree with runnin lower ppm`s across the board as you lived with and never used Dripclean as well so.......as Mr D stated.......

If yas know yer shit..........It`s prolly not needed but........If yas don`t and can put it in the budget for added insurance , do it .......

Peace.....DHF.............

 

[Mister_D]

Dripclean is insurance for the over achievers that think more is more runnin higher nutrient concentrations Mr D......especially when runnin coco with that certain "CEC" yas`ll be runnin up on at some point in the game guaranteed........

Glad yas`ve had the knowledge ta dodge and not need the product , but trust me.......It`s changed MANY growers bottom lines over the last several yrs it`s been available with no negative results.......but......

I fully agree with runnin lower ppm`s across the board as you lived with and never used Dripclean as well so.......as Mr D stated.......

If yas know yer shit..........It`s prolly not needed but........If yas don`t and can put it in the budget for added insurance , do it .......

Peace.....DHF.............

Said it yourself fred, it's a bandaid cure to an underlying problem. Each to his own, but it seems stupid to me to pay for something, just so you can continue to use more of something else. Easier and cheaper to just use less nutes, but some people have an aversion to learning new things......

Like ya say though, if it works for ya and it's in the budget that's your business. Just won't find me buying a bottle anytime soon.....

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

You'd be surprised how big of a plant you can grow in 2-3 gallons of medium with a good dtw feed system... Or even recirculating like a ppk. Pic courtesy of poopyteabags. These are in net pot lids.

Poopy is awesome. I remember him cause ive always been curious about his avatar. Some bloke swimming in cold water. I never got the link to this site. Anyway those plants are beautiful but nowhere near as big as mine. Mine are 2 metres high and haven't filled out yet. Having said that ive considered pot size and come across many people pulling the same sort of weight per pot size that I am trying to. My point is that it might be pot size or it might be that 1 blumat can only deliver so much juice at one time and that's the limit.

You should start training your plants. You have a lot to trim out by the looks of the picture.

Take the stems and start to bend them towards the light over several days. This will put the best buds toward the light. Keep them back from the light so they don't get bleached from the heat and intense light. This can be done if they are stretching by tying them a little higher on the rack if they stretch to much. This will also bring some of the higher branches back down some.

All that crap on the back will have to go if you don't want larf. It must be trimmed off after stretch. It is hard to do I know I struggle with the urge to not trim it off.

I would take some of the mass off the back now while it is still stretching. Do not take very much, I repeat do not take very much. If you do you will stunt the plant and delay the finish time. What I do is maybe 10-15 leaves or suckers every other day. Take them from the back of the plant where the light is not getting to. This will get the plant ready for the end of stretch when you will take a larger amount at one time. It will also open up that area a little to get better air flow.

I think the common theme in this whole epic thread is that I have no idea how to trim. Its something that im still not sure about, but im trying. (trying and fucking up, but trying)

too much awesomeness to quote, but pure gold. Makes me want to reread every thread you have made. I like the way you think and present things. Works for my head.

Dripclean is insurance for the over achievers that think more is more runnin higher nutrient concentrations Mr D......especially when runnin coco with that certain "CEC" yas`ll be runnin up on at some point in the game guaranteed........

Glad yas`ve had the knowledge ta dodge and not need the product , but trust me.......It`s changed MANY growers bottom lines over the last several yrs it`s been available with no negative results.......but......

I fully agree with runnin lower ppm`s across the board as you lived with and never used Dripclean as well so.......as Mr D stated.......

If yas know yer shit..........It`s prolly not needed but........If yas don`t and can put it in the budget for added insurance , do it .......

Peace.....DHF.............

well I think we have proven that I don't know my shit, so I will keep the dripclean until I have gotten comfortable with sub 1.0 ECs and then look into dropping it. Right now ill take the optional insurance please

Said it yourself fred, it's a bandaid cure to an underlying problem. Each to his own, but it seems stupid to me to pay for something, just so you can continue to use more of something else. Easier and cheaper to just use less nutes, but some people an aversion to learning new things......

Like ya say though, if it works for ya and it's in the budget that's your business. Just won't find me buying a bottle anytime soon.....

see above.

 

[bobblehead]

Anyway those plants are beautiful but nowhere near as big as mine. Mine are 2 metres high and haven't filled out yet. .

Lol if you say so bro... That's an 8 or 10k garden with each plant yielding at least 8oz... Height is a poor indicator of root mass. Big pots and blumats if that's what works for you... Nothing wrong with it. Just presenting alternative methods that have worked out better for me.

 

[420ish]

you have been doing good and getting better every crop.you should be getting a better idea of what kind of growth turns into nice buds and what turns into larf.it is a never ending learning curve especially if you change strains.

 

[DaveTheNewbie]

I was looking at my new plants tonight (4 weeks in flower) and noticed 5 leaves like this :

most of the rest of the plant is fine, and these are by far the worst 5 leaves

I haven't removed a single leaf before this. its also fucking hot (again).

any opinions what might cause this?


EDIT :

after looking at the infirmary section I found this :

WHICH IS NOT MY PLANT / LEAF

under the heading "Over Fertilization"
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=231387

so im running an EC of 1.3 (ive moved down to 0.9 in the last day but I doubt that has really kicked in yet)
if that's too hot then im really not sure what to do.

all intelligent opinions welcomed.