Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[St3ve]

Maybe he didn't want to get called out for lying by people who know what the fuck they are talking about...

I don't disagree that you, or many others around here saying that it doesn't work, that you guys know what you're talking about. That doesn't mean you can't learn something new though..

I can say that it DOES work from my own personal experience. Most of the nay sayers are using every OTHER experience EXCEPT actually doing it this and trying to say it doesn't work.

I mean really.. you would think at some point that people would stop and say to their self "You know, I haven't actually done this so maybe I should act like a know it all". But they don't.

 

[St3ve]

If you can't falsify a theory, then its not worth anything. So why side by side is impossible? Diffirence in veg times can be countered by vegging the plants diffirent times, not a good thing theu. So all we have to measure this is g/kwh or g/w or g/sqm. Might try this some time when I get my 2x1k room running again, but this far I haven't seen any good proof for it or against.

This isn't a theory though. The op said "Hey I've had great success with this" he didn't say "hey guys, what do you think about trying something like this". No one asked if they THINK it works or if they THINK it doesn't. The OP and those who have mastered it KNOW that it works. Not a theory my friend.. but you know have to try it if you don't want to.. just don't say things like "I don't think it works" based on your perceived lack of proof.

and like a said through out this thread.. I am not willing to throw away yield for an internet skeptic. I know that it DOES work, because I use it all the time and have been now for almost two years.

 

[St3ve]

I may sound ignorant and arrogant, but again i never came on this site to make friends i came here to help people, to achieve maximum yields per plant. and if anyone takes any of my advice and achieves there goals then i contributed to this site Right ???
Bottom line doesn't matter if i done this or not its against all horticultural practices , until you understand the difference of prunning and defoilating trust me there is a huge difference there buddy and times at which you do it in plants life cycle

How can you honestly say you're helping people when you are arguing against something you have no or limited experience with? The OP does it all the time, you don't. I do it all the time, you don't. How can you argue? You are whats wrong with boards like these... Just just blinding argue like a fool. Which is sad really because you obviously have a lot of skills.

 

[Bassy59]

This a recurring theme that I and I'm sure many others have noticed in this thread.

Anyone who says anything against the technique or sometimes even people asking simple questions will be abused.

Its like the church of scientology in here. Not a lot of science going on at all.

I'm not against defoliation my view is neutral.

Smoke a bowl and chill out dude

The point of my post is that their is:
a.) Ignorance even in the light of significant evidence.
or
b.) people spewing as fact without having even read this thread.

Not a single one of the people whom have tried this have stated it's the end-all be-all to yield enhancing. Yet many have totally denied any plausibility to it even working at all even with evidence to the contrary posted by growers with many years of experience.

Allow me to give a definition of ignorance: Ignorance is a state of being uninformed (lack of knowledge).[1] The word ignorant is an adjective describing a person in the state of being unaware and is often used as an insult to describe individuals who deliberately ignore or disregard important information or facts.

Also, from wikipedia on the Consequences of Ignorance: Individuals with superficial knowledge of a topic or subject may be worse off than people who know absolutely nothing. As Charles Darwin observed, "ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.

I hope and pray after 50+ yrs on this planet I never enter the state of ignorance.

This thread is obviously quite long. I found this thread on or about 10-30-2011, the day I registered here as I had googled something. I read every single post from start to finish before I attempted anything and I came into it with a desire to learn and not worry about failure if it happened.

I am of the opinion the use of defoliation as described by the op is a + expectation move and a learning PROCESS all the same. This opinion is based on my actual experience using this technique.

Now, what I have to say next is pure unadulterated conjecture (which may or not be the proper use of the word in this context).

I believe there is much evidence in this thread of what I like to call youngsters of ignorance and impatience. This would be defined by me as people unwilling to spend the time (hence patience) to read, investigate, and try to learn by reading the entire thread objectively (def: Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices) to decide what has merit and what doesn't. Where the ignorance comes in is flat refusing to even accept when posters show their results that prove out this technique. Delta9 and others have shown these results with great evidence and no apparent interest to lie. Yet it is the people like Dr.Fever and tons others) who flat refuse to accept such evidence or even acknowledge the the possibility there is something to this technique.

How many of us can recall when we were teenagers, going against the will of others, thinking we knew better? How many of us can look back at that time and realize what fools we were and today know, we didn't know shit? How many of us have seen other youngsters, maybe even out own teenagers go through this very same phase?

I was fortunate as a teenager to have gone through that, and flat be told "kid you don't know shit" and took it to heart. Every since that time, I have always looked to others that have come before me whenever I got involved in something new, to learn from their experience. Today, at 50 plus, I remain teachable. I ask others what their experience is in an effort to learn all the time.

As D9 in this thread has stated, along with Jimi Hendrix, Are you experienced?

 

[whodare]

Stick your skepticism right up your ass. This is wet weight 1 plant on harvest day.

You're the one that has not proven even one of your claims. Nor when I challenged your #'s were you able to refute me. You grow nice plants, but you are not the all-knowing person you think you are.

Furthermore, when the owner of the Nutrient maker that I use, whom has a masters degree in this shit and numerous other degrees, tells me he's all for my defoliation technique and does it himself on MJ, I'll take his word vs your little garden center all day long.

Again, this is WET WEIGHT OF ONE PLANT, last grow, harvested 9/20/12, Kosher Kush. Dry weight was 10.43oz. My weight is jr in comparison to D9's and others that HAVE POSTED IN THIS THREAD THEIR RESULTS!

Approx 5 weeks veg time. Can't say for sure as I didn't note transplant of seedling from root riot cube to buckets. 220w T5HO

4 plants in 4x4 tent, RDWC. Bent to hell and back so they wouldnt run into the 1k light in flower. Canopy was a literal blanket of laterally placed bud.

Had I vegged a little less and again, more laterally, yield would have been higher. But still, pics of above weight was only 1 plant in this grow.

so you yield 10oz off one plant, what did the tent yield?

we will see if he answers my question in regards to total yield.

there is no way thats 40 zips, not a chance in hell.

not the worst pics ive seen posted out of a defoliated garden though...

gunna answer me yet?

 

[Bassy59]

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=179318

The link is to a thread full of lifeless' pics....

Laters

I'm so glad you posted his link. He was one of the people I couldnt recall the name of that posted his pics and results in this thread.

 

[Bassy59]

gunna answer me yet?

going through pages to respond too, your time will come. I have not, unlike others, shy'd away from a single question here. I remain forthcoming.

 

[whodare]

dodging for a reason?

its not that hard to tell us the yield

 

[Bassy59]

Maybe try studying the PDF from the first fucking post in this entire thread? Study it? Make notes of important aspects, timelines, etc?

Or you can do what I did, spend 3 weeks reading every single post in this thread before ever doing anything.

Unfortunately D9 (who's also quoted in the pdf) appears to have taken all his pics from this thread down. His plants were nutso over the top high yield girls. To quote him:

"my last 5 plants before defoliation averaged 10.49, or 52.45 total oz's."

"i just weighed last weeks plant and it only went 15.80. i guess i screwed up somewhere.
so my last five consecutive defoliated plants went 11.96, 12.35, 14.74, 18.38, and 15.80 for a total of 73.23
or an average of 14.65 each."

DrFever, I don't know what more to say to you other than you really are a tool. Your last post about my pics and yield has got to be one of the most ignorant posts I've yet to see from you. Did you ride the short bus to school as a kid? Wear a hockey helmet?

I came off as a dick to you here jbonez. Apologies. Something you had said in a previous post about not doing it in flower irked me as I know you're actually going against what the op suggests in this thread and so many others have done. Coupled with the previous post that was being referenced too. My feeling was you were about to set yourself up for failure using this technique, going 180 degrees opposite of what the directions are after having done correctly in veg.

It's sometimes hard to understand the proper context on the net, and I screwed the pooch there. I should have taken the time to be clear and give proper reference.

My quote of D9 is another time for others to read his post from early in this thread. So many seem to refuse to acknowledge his results, or lifeless, and many others.

There is a plethora of great information in the pdf on page #1. It includes post #'s and quotes of many key things mentioned in this thread by the op, D9, Lifeless, and others. One can go back to each post# and in fact read the posts around them to pick up further context on what they are talking about and possibly learn a shit ton. If they put out the effort.

 

[Bassy59]

I got to say there buddy you must think many growers are fairly new to the growing and drying process it takes a shit load of buds to make anything you post some pics of what 1117 wet grams in a space of what 12" x 12" area hahahaha you must of shoved a few dinner knifes and spoons in there and hid it good cause that my friend is BS

yea keep lieing only thing its is showing is other people that this thread is BS

it is posts like this that piss me the fuck off. I had or have zero reason to lie about it. I wish I had kept a few more pics that refer to that plant. The box lid in that picture is one of those lids to a cardboard file box like you would get at office max. It measures 13.5 x 16 and had to be carefully stacked so the buds wouldn't fall out for pics. It wasn't 12x12" as you refer, or a pizza box as someone else thought.

It was obviously way too much to fit in the bowl. So I took a empty paper sack and zeroed on top of the bowl, then the filled sack from just that plant and got that weight. Why the hell wouldn't I? I was thrilled to death to hit that number from a single plant! It's my biggest yield thus far from a single plant and I know I'm working in the right direction.

Whats funny is I know how I fucked up that grow! I let them veg too tall. WAY too tall! As a result the canopy covered the entire top 8-12" of the tent and shaded the hell out of the rest of the plants! To make matters WORSE, my reflector was too damn small and didnt give enough outward spread of light! I have since changed to a big ass hood and a 5x5 tent rather than 4x4. And I still think it's too small for 4 plants, though maybe perfect for 3 using this style. Last grow I had to bend the shit out of the planst because they were too close to the reflector.

Now think about that, if it's a small hood (exactly 21.5" x 19") in a 48" x 48" tent and the buds are TOO CLOSE to the hood, how much light do you think is getting to any of the outer areas of the flowers? Furthermore, as you can see by the pics of those buds, there was no way in hell for the 1k light to penetrate to any real depth whatsoever because of the BLANKET of buds on the top.

Yet that plant still yielded 10oz dry!

What I also learned, which applies DIRECTLY to the post and reason k33ftr33s made on SIDE BY SIDE, was I had one plant (the bigun obviously) that so over shaded TWO other plants, that there was no way they could get enough light.

How many times have people whom have CLAIMED they read this thread demanded side by side yet NONE of them have really read this thread or they would have been familiar with WHY the op and even an expert in statistical analysis have stated why true side by side cannot be done and give proper data.

PLEASE SOMEONE ELSE EXPLAIN WHY SIDE BY SIDE IS AN IMPROPER MEASURE!

BudBusters post #4145 was spot on in regards to my frustrations with many in this thread.

 

[Bassy59]

@Whodare,

Total yield for that 4 plant grow was 24.xx oz. Imho, fantastic yield given the mistakes I mentioned above. Further, one cannot deny that getting 10+ oz from a single plant indoors with height limitations is a good result. Not the best ever by any means, but still, very solid. My goal is to avg 10oz (or more) per plant every grow. It's a learning process and I'll get there. And I'll get there using this technique, without having any fewer harvests per year, and with the same height limitations.

EDIT: BTW, nowhere did I say 10 zips PER PLANT in that last yield. Read exactly what I said if you think I did. (Notice too, even when I edit (other than simple typos) I make sure you know what the edit is. I hide nothing.

The biggest issue I have is 100% against all those that flatly deny it works when there is evidence all over this thread from those with many years of consistent experience. To expound all your worldly knowledge in light of evidence to the contrary is just plain ignorance in it's simplest definition.

K33f, nor anyone else has ever stated it's the end-all be-all of yield indoors. Nor has anyone questioned YOUR ability to gain excellent yields using your technique.

I will however offer you a personal challenge.

On your next grow, take the normal entire growing space of ONE of your lights. Apply this technique to those plants from veg through flower EXACTLY as k33f explains. Journal it with pics no less than 3 times per week. If you do not see an excellent yield, gain no less than 10% more than your avg yield today I will send you $100 (so long as you are in US or have even a paypal acct if outside US). HOWEVER, if you DO see said yield increase, you will do the same. I seriously doubt $100 would break either one of us. I know you have excellent success in growing and do understand training. Apply your experience to this technique for one grow, one light that will not be shaded out by other plants. Do it in earnest, let's see what happens.

 

[DrFever]

How can you honestly say you're helping people when you are arguing against something you have no or limited experience with? The OP does it all the time, you don't. I do it all the time, you don't. How can you argue? You are whats wrong with boards like these... Just just blinding argue like a fool. Which is sad really because you obviously have a lot of skills.

No limit or experience with ????? Trust me i have experience with lol
again i stress what is obviously unclear to you and some believers of defoilating it goes against all horticultural practices
also this is a bunch of BS saying you cannot do a side by side experiment WHY NOT what is limiting factors Veg times ??? What. This is why no experiments or side by sides has ever bin conducted cause in reality it would be a waste of time. In all seriousness why bother defoilating learn to train a plant so all bud sites are at light level i can guarntee you you tri fold yields compared to defoilating a plant who gives a crap about lower bud site in reality there never mature enough anyways even come harvest time and trust me chopping half of plant is not going to make a difference waiting few more weeks in hopes of lower bud sites to mature cause they won't they never have nor never will
so now you look at your girls in flower and see lower bud development but in reality there small and will remain small 1 - 3" bud when dried doesn't even stay on drying table your picking it up off the floor that is what you call buds ????? for many we either make hash or throw it into our teas for plant food but i am sure you add that as weight lol what ever man

 

[whodare]

Whats funny is I know how I fucked up that grow! I let them veg too tall. WAY too tall! As a result the canopy covered the entire top 8-12" of the tent and shaded the hell out of the rest of the plants! To make matters WORSE, my reflector was too damn small and didnt give enough outward spread of light! I have since changed to a big ass hood and a 5x5 tent rather than 4x4. And I still think it's too small for 4 plants, though maybe perfect for 3 using this style. Last grow I had to bend the shit out of the planst because they were too close to the reflector.

so basically, you havnt even figured out what is possible with your setup, you over veg, dont have the proper gear, used supercropping and scrog (claiming the defoliation increased yield), but you want people to take your advice? get out of here.

Now think about that, if it's a small hood (exactly 21.5" x 19") in a 48" x 48" tent and the buds are TOO CLOSE to the hood, how much light do you think is getting to any of the outer areas of the flowers? Furthermore, as you can see by the pics of those buds, there was no way in hell for the 1k light to penetrate to any real depth whatsoever because of the BLANKET of buds on the top.

and then if you get the right gear youll come back and swear ripping your leafs off increased your yield not the new reflector.

i though defoliation was supposed to help with penetration?

Yet that plant still yielded 10oz dry!

sweet 10oz off one plant, but what was the tents total final weight? or are you scared to answer?

What I also learned, which applies DIRECTLY to the post and reason k33ftr33s made on SIDE BY SIDE, was I had one plant (the bigun obviously) that so over shaded TWO other plants, that there was no way they could get enough light.

How many times have people whom have CLAIMED they read this thread demanded side by side yet NONE of them have really read this thread or they would have been familiar with WHY the op and even an expert in statistical analysis have stated why true side by side cannot be done and give proper data.

PLEASE SOMEONE ELSE EXPLAIN WHY SIDE BY SIDE IS AN IMPROPER MEASURE!

BudBusters post #4145 was spot on in regards to my frustrations with many in this thread.

maybe because a "side by side" is possible. and all the idiots running around screaming otherwise have no fucking clue what they are talking about...

two tents, same veg time, same light, same strain, same sized clones, same nutrients/feeding.

simple as that. which one yields more faster?

 

[DrFever]

I'm so glad you posted his link. He was one of the people I couldnt recall the name of that posted his pics and results in this thread.

Bassy not bashing know ones grow here but look his 6 plants one plant here ??? that is approximately same size put 6 plants like this together which do you think would yield more ????

 

[whodare]

@Whodare,

Total yield for that 4 plant grow was 24.xx oz. Imho, fantastic yield given the mistakes I mentioned above. Further, one cannot deny that getting 10+ oz from a single plant indoors with height limitations is a good result. Not the best ever by any means, but still, very solid. My goal is to avg 10oz (or more) per plant every grow. It's a learning process and I'll get there. And I'll get there using this technique, without having any fewer harvests per year, and with the same height limitations.

1.5# is average at best, my worst pulls have been no less then that.

a 10z plant is nothing special, ive grown pound plants and seen 3.5 pounders.

yes you will have less harvests per year running one flower room and a veg room as opposed to 2 flower rooms.

but feel free to extend your veg by defoliating, and miss out on the chance to harvest once a month.

On your next grow, take the normal entire growing space of ONE of your lights. Apply this technique to those plants from veg through flower EXACTLY as k33f explains. Journal it with pics no less than 3 times per week. If you do not see an excellent yield, gain no less than 10% more than your avg yield today I will send you $100 (so long as you are in US or have even a paypal acct if outside US). HOWEVER, if you DO see said yield increase, you will do the same. I seriously doubt $100 would break either one of us. I know you have excellent success in growing and do understand training. Apply your experience to this technique for one grow, one light that will not be shaded out by other plants. Do it in earnest, let's see what happens.

100 bucks is chump change, and small consolation for a 10% loss on what is normally a 15k$ harvest.

 

[DrFever]

Whodare you notice that st3ve's posting yet we have never seen his defoilating grow lol yo st3ve post some pics or it never happened don't worry i am sure interpol isn't worried about your micro grow hahahaha

 

[Bassy59]

And what about D9's 15+ oz plants? I've never even mentioned his 19oz plant.

I will not have less harvests per year! How the fuck do you figure that? I've already mentioned I'm LIMITED BY STATE LAWS! Again more ignorance from you. Some of us do not have the luxury or are not willing to breach the laws to that extent. I'm allowed 4 freaking plants in flower and I grow to make edibles for my elderly mother. I need a lot out of those 4 plants and I have height limitations.

I DONT EXTEND MY VEG TIME! Is it that hard for you to figure out? I know you understand why in reality, so why do you even bring it up as an argument?

And what if you happened to see a 20% gain? Would you then be willing to say "holy shit I guess I was wrong"? Doubtful.

Again, ignorance is bliss. Your methods may be fantastic. Your grow space may be better than most others growing in their homes or basements with far more strict restrictions (height, wattage available, sq ft available etc). But to deny, this method flat doesnt work, with evidence to the contrary all over this thread is flat out ignorance.

I'm fortunate in that I am aware of literally dozens of other growers that use this technique and have for up to 30 years in some cases. Few of them speak about it except with others that have also been doing it for years or those that ask them about it. Why? Because of the responses by those like Dr.Fever and yourself that claim, with zero experience whatsoever that it doesnt work. Even if they were staring at the plant, they would deny it worked.

Again, I suggest you, DR.Fever and others first read the pdf, understand WHY and WHERE this technique is being used, then think about it.

To ANYONE that want's a side by side. Don't do it. Just do ONE GROW using this technique exactly as described. Find out for yourself! Nobody in here is saying it's killed their plants! What's one grow? I have seen the potential and will dial it in to my room and needs.

 

[Enlighten]

Talk is cheap...

Just STFU and put two plants side by side...

This is the first thing the moron who started this nonsense thread should have done 2.5 years ago.

What a colossal FAIL this whole thread is from start to finish.

Too much aggro and zero science.

 

[iampolluted]

Talk is cheap...

Just STFU and put two plants side by side...

This is the first thing the moron who started this nonsense thread should have done 2.5 years ago.

What a colossal FAIL this whole thread is from start to finish.

Too much aggro and zero science.

haven't seen shit from you soooooooooo either get to it or you're only adding to the shit someone has to sift through to find useful info. cuz yours sure as fuck isn't useful......to anyone.

 

[willyweed]

i have one full shopping bag of leaves that i take of my plant .and it does not put 1 single day on the length of the flower.and harvest is up too .this is a very strain dependant topic mine seem to love the leaves being taken off.i was told that in nature plant leaves get eaten by bugs, so over the years of evolution a plant would not be too stressed to loose some leaves,i would not rip any maybe 1or 2 off a kush plant but would rip loads of a skunk plant .so it is all about what you are growing !