unspoken
Member
Do you believe secession is the only way to go about this? As opposed to something like tax reform?
Place for Dummies to Hang
- Thread starter Jbonez
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Do you believe secession is the only way to go about this? As opposed to something like tax reform?
I think what he means is drop a fucking bomb on DC and start over, we obviously missed something...
Tax reform, ok...
What if we had a decentralized government were states could opt out of participation?
My biggest beef is the governments coercion, why must we be held at gunpoint and told to pay taxes? Wouldn't a voluntary system necessarily create a system focused on customer satisfaction.
I know, nobody would pay taxes. :shrug:
I don't like the highly centralized power of a federal government, I believe a state rights style government where the state has the choice of participating in a federal union is better. Highly centralized ecosystems are the most at risk of extinction, why should a centralized political system be any different.
What if we had a decentralized government were states could opt out of participation?
My biggest beef is the governments coercion, why must we be held at gunpoint and told to pay taxes? Wouldn't a voluntary system necessarily create a system focused on customer satisfaction.
I know, nobody would pay taxes. :shrug:
I don't like the highly centralized power of a federal government, I believe a state rights style government where the state has the choice of participating in a federal union is better. Highly centralized ecosystems are the most at risk of extinction, why should a centralized political system be any different.
Buddy Holly
Member
thats why states have the right to secede. its that whole checks and balances thing. the threat of and the potential loss of revenue is a means to keep the fed in check. with so many scoffing at the mere mention of secession you are plainly telling the federal gov't "keep screwing us over, we'll just keep taking it."
and to those that are critical of people who don't vote... consider for a second that by voting you are reinforcing the status quo and giving credibility to the two party farce. the notion of voting for the lesser of 2 evils is in plain a vote for evil. if you didnt vote or voted 3rd party you would be making a much louder statement about the depth of your discontent.
look at the numbers of the recent election. obama was reelected with less votes than in 2008, first time ever thats happened. there is a number of ways to spin this but one is that people are fed up with the faux 2 party system and see voting is an exercise in futility because red/blue doesnt matter. the policies are largely driven by the same narrow interests.
i cant help but notice some peoples posts read like they are patting themselves on the back the whole time. politics is your bag? gee golly whiz. take a number.
and to those that are critical of people who don't vote... consider for a second that by voting you are reinforcing the status quo and giving credibility to the two party farce. the notion of voting for the lesser of 2 evils is in plain a vote for evil. if you didnt vote or voted 3rd party you would be making a much louder statement about the depth of your discontent.
look at the numbers of the recent election. obama was reelected with less votes than in 2008, first time ever thats happened. there is a number of ways to spin this but one is that people are fed up with the faux 2 party system and see voting is an exercise in futility because red/blue doesnt matter. the policies are largely driven by the same narrow interests.
i cant help but notice some peoples posts read like they are patting themselves on the back the whole time. politics is your bag? gee golly whiz. take a number.
unspoken
Member
I do believe the federal govt has been over reaching lately. To me the solution means taking away the ability of business to buy govt. No special tax preferences to be bought goes a long way to achieving this. We just had a major setback in this regard with citizens united vs. FEC. To me, this goes against everything a conservative should be about (not implying that I am a conservative, but the people who passed this claim to be). I am going to agree unabashedly with justice Steven's dissent:
"At bottom, the Court's opinion is thus a rejection of the common sense of the American people, who have recognized a need to prevent corporations from undermining self government since the founding, and who have fought against the distinctive corrupting potential of corporate electioneering since the days of Theodore Roosevelt. It is a strange time to repudiate that common sense. While American democracy is imperfect, few outside the majority of this Court would have thought its flaws included a dearth of corporate money in politics."
This needs to be the first thing to go IMO.
"At bottom, the Court's opinion is thus a rejection of the common sense of the American people, who have recognized a need to prevent corporations from undermining self government since the founding, and who have fought against the distinctive corrupting potential of corporate electioneering since the days of Theodore Roosevelt. It is a strange time to repudiate that common sense. While American democracy is imperfect, few outside the majority of this Court would have thought its flaws included a dearth of corporate money in politics."
This needs to be the first thing to go IMO.
Tax reform? Where is it even decreed that one must even pay a tax to the government? Its not constitutional...
C&P
- There is no law which requires you to file an income tax return for working in America.
- There is no law which requires you to pay income tax for working in America.
- You volunteer when you sign a income tax return.
- You volunteer when you pay income tax.
- You sign away your 5th Amendment rights against self-incrimination when you sign a tax return.
- The money which you pay as your " income tax " goes to a private banking cartel known as the Federal Reserve System. This organization, also known as the " FED," is NOT a government agency.
unspoken
Member
What do you think of the idea that the miserable failure of the GOP lately is about to give birth to a viable new party?
Buddy Holly
Member
i think you reap what you sow.
if it does lead to a new party i think it will be largely comprised of the most extreme elements of the current gop.
notice that the recent elections have, for both parties, largely been supported by their most radical supporters. the extremists on both sides are the ones showing up at the polls by and large these days. those in the middle are losing their taste for the bullshit.
as this continues the rhetoric will get even worse. look at the recent comments made by republicans regarding the election. lamenting the death of "traditional america" and claiming minorities who feel entitled to gov't hand outs lead the way in voting for obama. as if corporate interests had no say in the matter. beyond the lack of historical perspective regarding the constant shift of the demographic make-up of america, it just shows that the losers are not taking it in stride and will seek to whip up a frenzy in pursuit of their own narrow interests. if "you" (general) think the george soros or david kochs of the world have the same interests as you then hey, you deserve whatever shit may come to you.
if it does lead to a new party i think it will be largely comprised of the most extreme elements of the current gop.
notice that the recent elections have, for both parties, largely been supported by their most radical supporters. the extremists on both sides are the ones showing up at the polls by and large these days. those in the middle are losing their taste for the bullshit.
as this continues the rhetoric will get even worse. look at the recent comments made by republicans regarding the election. lamenting the death of "traditional america" and claiming minorities who feel entitled to gov't hand outs lead the way in voting for obama. as if corporate interests had no say in the matter. beyond the lack of historical perspective regarding the constant shift of the demographic make-up of america, it just shows that the losers are not taking it in stride and will seek to whip up a frenzy in pursuit of their own narrow interests. if "you" (general) think the george soros or david kochs of the world have the same interests as you then hey, you deserve whatever shit may come to you.
I dont know if it's de facto or de jure, but since the civil war secession has been off the plate.
Truth
We are on the same page in regards to money in politics, anyone buying beneficial policies or such is bullshit.
But, the fact the govenment can write those laws and use violence to enforce them is the root cause, IMHO.
Lemme ask you, has government been ethical in its actions thus far, has lobbying never had an effect?
Or is citizens united the nail in the coffin so to speak, sealing, in law, corporations rights to buy government?
I believe fascism/corporatism needs socialism to be "successful".
Buddy Holly
Member
yeah but only in theory which makes it more insidious. it doesnt need to be successful in practice for it to score with the intended audience. nor does the intended audience seem particularly interested in understanding wtf the words being tossed around actually mean. the knee jerk reaction to certain buzz words is something history will not remember us kindly for.
and the irony of corporations bemoaning the rise of socialism is often lost on those who the point scores biggest with, no surprise there. corporate welfare is the worst kind of socialism. foot the bill but reap none of the rewards. just keep thinking that you too one day could be the ceo of one of the many multi-nationals that are actively working to fuck you over.
the ability to trick a certain % of the population into voting against their own interests is fascinating. that they have done it numerous times only with the names and faces changed is a testament not only to their 'power' but also to peoples inability to THINK for themselves. like i said before, you get what you deserve. most of the time. some people are just unlucky.
and the irony of corporations bemoaning the rise of socialism is often lost on those who the point scores biggest with, no surprise there. corporate welfare is the worst kind of socialism. foot the bill but reap none of the rewards. just keep thinking that you too one day could be the ceo of one of the many multi-nationals that are actively working to fuck you over.
the ability to trick a certain % of the population into voting against their own interests is fascinating. that they have done it numerous times only with the names and faces changed is a testament not only to their 'power' but also to peoples inability to THINK for themselves. like i said before, you get what you deserve. most of the time. some people are just unlucky.
unspoken
Member
To answer your questions...
1. of course lobbying has had an effect.
2. Nail in the coffin, I don't know about that. I guess I'm not as pessimistic about that as you are.
I believe we are capable of reform, but not with the current divided mentality. We would need a movement for truth and reason. A 3rd party that could take the reasonable people from both parties and leave the outliers that seem to be the vocal minorities at this time. Do I see that coming anytime soon? No, that's a pipe dream, but so is secession IMO. It would be interesting to see a truly libertarian society set up the size of oh, a state. It'd be the first experiment of its kind as far as I know.
Lobbying has had the single largest effect on the direction government has taken in the last 25-30 years. Granted, economic policies in place prior to the rise of lobbying have also contributed significantly to our current problems, they have gone hand in hand with business' ability to stack the odds in their favor to create one of the most fundamentally flawed societies in modern times.
Problem is, there is no appetite amongst either party to actually tackle that problem. Both benefit from it. There is no desire for any meaningful reform. And yet to stay on the current path is clearly unsustainable. So what is the solution? Kick the can and hope you're not the one on duty when SHTF.
And I'm glad to see someone else recognize the nonsense about not voting, kudos Buddy Holly. This is something I've been dealing with lately amongst certain friends. The notion that if you don't vote you can't complain is complete and utter bullshit. If you vote you can't complain!
Problem is, there is no appetite amongst either party to actually tackle that problem. Both benefit from it. There is no desire for any meaningful reform. And yet to stay on the current path is clearly unsustainable. So what is the solution? Kick the can and hope you're not the one on duty when SHTF.
And I'm glad to see someone else recognize the nonsense about not voting, kudos Buddy Holly. This is something I've been dealing with lately amongst certain friends. The notion that if you don't vote you can't complain is complete and utter bullshit. If you vote you can't complain!
With the Citizens United decision, I feel it's a bit like trying to put the genie back in the bottle. Any transparency the Freedom of Information Act was supposed to have on campaign donations went out the window with the Citizens United decision.
While both parties certainly do benefit from loosened campaign finance laws, I think that balance may shift in coming elections.
I take the more long-term stance on the the CU decision. The Koch brothers certainly are. First, demolish limits on corporate campaign contributions and muddy the transparency in which said contributions are donated. Second, get rid of the counter-balance (ie the Unions) on the State level. Third, plunder and pillage. What the modern day Tea Party has been co-opted to become should be a case study for all aspiring evil mustache twillers world-wide.
There is nothing mored detrimental to a 'democracy' than an ill-informed voting population. This is what happens.
Which gives way to another interesting topic. The repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act and our current financial woes.
a.
While both parties certainly do benefit from loosened campaign finance laws, I think that balance may shift in coming elections.
I take the more long-term stance on the the CU decision. The Koch brothers certainly are. First, demolish limits on corporate campaign contributions and muddy the transparency in which said contributions are donated. Second, get rid of the counter-balance (ie the Unions) on the State level. Third, plunder and pillage. What the modern day Tea Party has been co-opted to become should be a case study for all aspiring evil mustache twillers world-wide.
There is nothing mored detrimental to a 'democracy' than an ill-informed voting population. This is what happens.
Which gives way to another interesting topic. The repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act and our current financial woes.
a.
What if C-A-T really spelled Dog?
unspoken
Member
