why is it bad to breed with fem seeds

[FOE20]

heh....Well in 2004/6 I was already trying out STS solutions..
any of recall this Cl-one stuff?...it did work...and I have done my homework..
CBF if you call yourself a breeder than you are a business man..
The orig topic was a guy just wondering about this s1 male and the use of it...but its a open forum..ppl are gana say what they want...no need to jump on any bandwagon..just ride your own..tell ya tho you make some fem Scream's and I'll try um!..heh..

I think its the small subtle things that make learning about each variety worth the work and time..They all are great cause the plants a gift no matter how ya use it..peace
FOE20

 

[Tom Hill]

Heh, yes FOE20 the line is exactly what matters, more specifically, the genetic history of the line/s. How often the trait has been expressed down through the history of the family/s is what's behind the outcome, not your phenotypic testing of the parental candidate. That much is known regarding all polygenetic traits.

So why are you advising folks to perform all that phenotypic testing of the parental candidate/s? Telling folk to flip a coin would be a more precise way for them to proceed.

VicHigh understood this well, he's been quoted to say something of the effect of "shit, for all we know it might be short males we want" during a decades-old resinous male discussion at overgrow. Point is he was no stranger to scoffing at the idea that you're making any headway utilizing pheotypic selection methods for complexly inherited traits.

Clarke has bred fem seeds, and bred to them as well. He also has spoken in the past of breeding to intersex plants as a route to them. He also recommended smoking the males and using the one that smokes best but you may want to do the opposite since resin production is very much correlated with sex modifying genes in male cannabis.

DJ stone cold and straight faced recommends using hermies, calls them reverse hermies but hermies is what they are. Has reported the observation that not only does he not run into hermie nightmares from this practice, but quite the opposite. If it moves the population greatly, he feels it's in the opposite direction that you do.

I would submit, it simply doesn't move the population much in any direction, exactly like breeding for any other complexly inherited trait. Shit, if you guys are going to randomly set up phenotypic tests of parental candidates to go through even though it will net you nil, then let it be a test of smoke at least.

You're all over the place in that last long post back there, your opening and closing lines are in complete contrast to what's inbeween,, the meat of your sandwich don't match your bunz.

 

[Enlighten]

Tom, thanks for taking the time to educate us all. I really do appreciate it.

It seems like yesterday i was lurking OG and the order of the day was isolating quality & intersex plants then selecting one to continue with and not the other.

But by the time we have fixed the simpler, Mendelian traits (the tri's, leaf shape, etc), probabilities have risen to an acceptable level regarding the isolation/selection of individuals homozygous for more complex traits.

Have we all been wasting our time for the past 10 years? Why select anything at all? If we are taking hermies deep into the line because of some unseen genetic potential why not bring the tri's and the mutants along for the ride as well?

I can see how the plant would have a good use for the intersex genes in the wild if it was out of pollination range as a fail safe to ensure the continuation of the genes.

In modern times, our time what use do they have? Sure we may be able to use an s1 to obtain quality genetics but after that why continue to use them at all?

 

[Enlighten]

In my mind yield is not a valid trait. Something that should not even be taken into consideration for the modern breeder. Grow twice as many plants if you want to double the yield. Next to yield on the list are intersex plants. Seriously what does yield have to do with quality? Nothing

I really am trying to understand what it is exactly that you think we are loosing by not using them? What is the correlation between quality & highly intersex plants in modern times.

I can see the correlation between quality & highly intersex plants in the evolution of cannabis where a seed may have been isolated in a new environment where a mutation occurs resulting in an increase in quality and the intersex genes ensure the survival of this new mutation.

The only logic i can see for using intersex plants in modern times is to keep genetic diversity in which case every cross should be an open pollination many plants and some type of doubled haploid reverse breeding technique used deep within the line before release.


I guess my real question is; why are you in the "deal with intersex later" camp rather than "now" camp?

 

[FOE20]

Because Expression even tho it can be controlled by enviro and genetics, it also can educate and show more than the Breeder knew to start...Knowing is allot of the battle for me..
Ever under fed a Indica?...or over fed?..Or see how it reacts to small micro changes in its diet or hotter/cooler zones in the Veg area?...
I have and it has just as adverse reactions and heavy Testing...
Most over feed Sativas and called it bad genetic expression...
Im a fan of All lines...They All have something to offer and when we read reports on this or that its not the plant were reading on..Its only the expression that the grower had at the time..
The Plant is perfect....
btw those Resious Males....sure it wasn't just a bit to much P in their diet captain?..a youth plant with a micro diet during clone stage?...Ive taken 3-5wk bloom cuts that show resins well into veg after reveg...Ive seen the same on some even from sprout and considering most Hormones are P heavy cause it promotes Root dev I'd say its a damn big factor to consider before I make a claim about Resinous Males...
Lets look at 1...Power Clone-Botanicare = NPK/0.20-0.30-0.20...Higher P...so yea...Its up to each person and their method to make the call...But there is more than the simple reason of genetics behind why those Males showed resins to start..But if ya want to simplify it and claim its a genetic expression Only Those Males showed and their choice males cause of that?...heh...not sure I would that easily...but I know those convos to...and prob have them backed up in database..along with Vics notes and the old BCGA catalog..RSS baby!...
As said we all can have our own views...this is mine and Im stickin to it...And Ive only begun to refute some myths about whats been said n this or that...Game has only started...
I def enjoy the sparring and all the views no matter what happens..I'll still get up and work with my plants and not give a care about anything else while they have my attention just as any of us I would hope....being were making medications for some needy folk...and not just simply growin herb anymore..
Im not tryin to spin topics or prove anything I havn't proven to myself thru some damn long and quite detailed testing...
so do as ya want..
but if I do get any rev-Males I'd be more than happy to send them to ya Tom to try...you did say you would right?....
and then you can test out large populations and get us some conclusions..
FOE20

 

[Enlighten]

Is that the future of cannabis breeding? Putting large populations through various conditions hunting for mutations/unseen expressions ?

 

[FOE20]

conditions hunting for mutations/unseen expressions

Its to show you if it is caused or not by them(genetically) or the expression(enviro+genetic)...If its genetic it will happen over and over and over cause its genetically imbedded in its code..
if its Enviro it will happen when its not happy in what It wants and will show diff reactions on either side..Not a consistent single reaction but levels of reactions...Its being able to know those differences up and down both sides..and everything in between...
Thought it was observing and working toward removing unwanted tho mainly?......domesticated natural selection maybe?...heh...how can ya know what it is without the environmental stress testing which in turn can show the mutations/expressions as well..
And really its not the future of breeding...Its what should of been happening the whole time..You can take that 1 super mom you have and do the same tests on it..No matter what line its from and you will learn more about indeed....1:1 right...
but that 1:1 was made of?....0.5(low% of traits we want), 0.9(higher %), 0.2(lower distinct traits desired). 1.2(qualities of part of both parents), 0.03(bad traits to avoid..) all imbedded in these so called Stabilized lines..Its never as simple as 1:1 when we break it all down..
the book is half written and only part read IMO...
FOE20

 

[ClearBarbedFunk]

CBF[/B] if you call yourself a breeder than you are a business man..

where did that come from?? you should know aswell as anyone im no breeder, and never made the claim. seedmaker/hack, much more appropriate.

The orig topic was a guy just wondering about this s1 male and the use of it...
FOE20

and that was my response, do the effin deed

 

[resinryder]

CBF----How you doing bro

 

[FOE20]

hey Tom sorry your right as I do get goin in a few directions...Its usually late and Im well into relaxing when I enjoy reading web chatter...
But why do I advise anything Im proposing?...cause I feel the work is unfinished...Well done indeed, well doc'd and only a small part of the entire view..Felt more like still learning about it back then, than it does now as a standard practice....
I also feel we don't need huge populations to Study a variety and we can learn quite a bit from a Single individual when well tested in as many ways as we can learn from a population of related individuals..Specially if its going to be the main goal of someones desire..They may not want 3 or 6 diff phenoms and only Need 1...
Its really to me is about the purpose..
If its to release a wonderful Mother cultivar in a Fem form..sure...If its to use as a breeding pool Im not so sure and as unsure as I was when it was a topic in `06..and when i read the ways DJ or Clark used them as well...
Ive run Fem lines matter fact just finished a 1-2yr Cali-O fem run 5mo ago for shits n giggles...I havn't bred to them but I may cause its not that Female fem mother Im sweating...Its this Male from the fem line that throws it all into the gutter personally....Im sorry for taking up so much of your/everyones time and really do try to apply every aspect of all views...Im a Aquarian and my biggest prob is myself...thnx...

do the deed...heh....Im avoiding the deed man...thought you guys were the big Feminizers?..but whatever CBF...your quote says....

"give the people what they want"

Mine is about giving ppl what they need...cest la vie mi amigro...I gata tend the garden and grow with my plants..

what is a S-2 btw?....new standard practice?...
FOE20

 

[ClearBarbedFunk]

do the deed...heh....Im avoiding the deed man...thought you guys were the big Feminizers?..but whatever CBF...your quote says....

im talkin about the poster bro, like i was replyin to him, not you. i already know you have a closed mine to femmed works.

yep my quote ''give the people what they want" which imo is what is should be, much like the govt, you see it as give um what you think they need,lol.

 

[FOE20]

my bad CBF....thought it was meant for me as you had quoted my reply as well no?....We def see and do things diff....but closed minded to Fem workings?...please man...no need Im sure were both over it...but since its being so questioned...Heres what I study..exactly....Some actually may understand my lack of understanding here by what I study..

Every thing I do is Applied Botany...
And by no means linnaean system of binomial nomenclature...
My distinction is botanical science in a pure sense, as the study of plants themselves, and botany as applied science, which studies the human use of plants...Obvious in applied botany are horticulture, forestry and agriculture, weed science, plant pathology, floristry, pharmacognosy, economic botany and ethnobotany which lie outside modern courses in botany...
So yes everything I say and or claim is based on empirical observations..
Funny I don't feel closed mined but actually rather open minded and trying to understand apparently what Ive "seen and done".....Im well open minded as are both my hands which help me do and observe the actual claims...

I specialize in - Biophysics, Ecology, Morphology, Physiology, Systematics, System Ecology...and maybe someday Taxonomy..and I try to relate the Biochemistry of it but can't really study that as I don't have a real lab to do so..but I can grow and use the other applied sciences as well indeed..
But also relative within these specialized fields I do not do is Anatomy, Cytology, Molecular Biology, and Genetics which Im trying to learn on here as well....again thanks Tom for trying sir...

and use it in a Applied way - Agronomy/ crop and soil science..So you see my fascination with formulas?...


I'd be more than happy to still crack open some nugs and sit at a table with you guys talk shop and see what happens..It would prob take Tom using a dry-erase board and drawing out the chromo points I can't connect..But I am open to always learn and sorry if it came off as what I say is set in stone..Im saying what I feel and have seen at best is all...
I got 3 ex baby mommas so this stuff is nothing compared to dealing with them..lol...
live long and prosper fellaz..peace
FOE20

 

[GMT]

I got 3 ex baby mommas so this stuff is nothing compared to dealing with them..lol...
live long and prosper fellaz..peace
FOE20

Ah, I see you believe in open pollination on all levels

 

[DryNobBob]

Stupid question, will feminizing mess with future gens, i.e. genetically altered somehow, or is it just the one plant?

 

[Adze]

DNB,
Despite the seeming controversy, the consensus among knowledgeable folks here is that no genetic change (other than the obvious selection of the particular plant you use) happens as a result of feminizing. You won’t get a Y chromosome, from a reversed female so all seed will be female. That doesn’t mean you might not have intersex leaning genes. The seed will have a mix of genes from both parents, just like regular seed.
I would be interested to know if the X and Y cannabis chromosomes are of similar length. In humans the Y is shorter, so the X has additional information missing on the Y. But with cannabis I don’t know, perhaps the Y is longer and might add something significant to the mix…

 

[GMT]

Much to my surprise, in cannabis the Y is the larger chromosome.

 

[Adze]

GMT,

Thanks for the reply. Interesting that, changes the potential outcome and perhaps the path to success. One more complication, in an already complicated puzzle.

 

[FOE20]

@TomHill....you asked why I suggested photoperiod testing and the rest....maybe Peter of Ch9 says it better,,...

Was just reading the article by Peter...pg59 - What To Do To Select Donor Plants to Make feminized Seed -
When selecting a Mother...Test her...change Photo periods..Stress test her root sytem...basically says to test thouroughly before selection.....
Peter of Ch9 Fem Seeds
pg63
What not to do in oder to produce some fem seeds..
Do not plan on using a one Single reversed Plant...
3rd part - Do not use S2 seeds to cross again nor S3 as results will be confusing...
Start from scrtach with regular Female clones..If a S2 cross them with the same family plant/sister it may result is 50% sucess...

happy testing folks..
FOE20

 

[Nunsacred]

There may be an epigenetic effect from fem seed.
I don't even care but I'm just saying.

Intersex plants historically must have been the best breeding tool.
In fact I'd go as far saying :

The best smoking quality traits in most quality old Sativa lines ....
...are closely linked with intersex trait because it was the best way of enriching those traits for outdoor breeders during the centuries.


I started out saying
"I don't want intersex plants so I don't breed with them"

But when I find a few surprise, unplanned seeds in my nicest buds, I find myself hoping now that it was a hermie and these are self-cross from that great pheno.
Just like hackers before me.

 

[Jbonez]

If I said in 5 years, growing known hermies, I have yet to see a single nanner, would anyone believe me? Ive found maybe 10 seeds in that time but no nanners...

Now if I grow known hermies, then why am i not getting these issues in bloom?