why is it bad to breed with fem seeds

[idiit]

one facet of this discussion that hasn't been addressed is that there are tiers in breeding starting at the bottom with amateur pollen chuckers ( me ) and working your way up the ladder to the most competent canna-breeders.

there are also tiers of phenotypes or perhaps more accurately genotypes that a specific individual is working with.

there are also important differences to be noted between a professional breeder putting out stock to the world wide canna-community and individual farmers who like to custom their own strains for their personal grows.

speaking as a compulsive "pollen chucker with a purpose" i know that if one of my lines goes sour i can start with fresh p1's/f1's and start over again.

i try to keep the parents of any strain i'm working on secure, viable in seed and often clone form. if i want to redo or reproduce a new batch of seeds of my strain i have the original genetics at hand to do so.

amateurs like myself rely on the professional breeders to give me a good starting platform that i then can modify, customize towards my desired attributes. my screw ups are not going out into thousands of other pollen chuckers seed banks causing subsequent unmitigated damage.

many breeders/chuckers realize that this is a numbers game and we need to run large numbers to determine if we have something worth saving as a stabilized worked line. unfortunately the days when huge numbers could be safely run on a variety of strains like sam the skunkman, kc brains, nevile did are gone for most locations in today's world.

fems and clones of special genetics cut down on the numbers necessary to work non homogenous lines that working with males entails.

fems to my perspective are just as viable an alternative as working with clones for many purposes. when i do a landrace preservation run i choose to work with regular seeds and as many different seeds of that particular strain as possible using open pollenization techniques to preserve the historical attributes present in the unworked landrace strain.

like an earlier poster stated; fems are just another tool in the toolbox. don't hate on hammers 'cause some nitwit can't use a hammer properly.

 

[dedovede13]

I came from your nightmares. I WILL throw in my 2cents. Diss me if u may . I will post a lil somethin something later. So take care. BTW...my dad was one hard muthed fucker and I learned from him. While most were learning ABCs and playing at school yards...I was already helping him with crops and sippin tea in the ganja fields. Im out!

 

[Oregonism]

one facet of this discussion that hasn't been addressed is that there are tiers in breeding starting at the bottom with amateur pollen chuckers ( me ) and working your way up the ladder to the most competent canna-breeders.

there are also tiers of phenotypes or perhaps more accurately genotypes that a specific individual is working with.

there are also important differences to be noted between a professional breeder putting out stock to the world wide canna-community and individual farmers who like to custom their own strains for their personal grows.

speaking as a compulsive "pollen chucker with a purpose" i know that if one of my lines goes sour i can start with fresh p1's/f1's and start over again.

i try to keep the parents of any strain i'm working on secure, viable in seed and often clone form. if i want to redo or reproduce a new batch of seeds of my strain i have the original genetics at hand to do so.

amateurs like myself rely on the professional breeders to give me a good starting platform that i then can modify, customize towards my desired attributes. my screw ups are not going out into thousands of other pollen chuckers seed banks causing subsequent unmitigated damage.

many breeders/chuckers realize that this is a numbers game and we need to run large numbers to determine if we have something worth saving as a stabilized worked line. unfortunately the days when huge numbers could be safely run on a variety of strains like sam the skunkman, kc brains, nevile did are gone for most locations in today's world.

fems and clones of special genetics cut down on the numbers necessary to work non homogenous lines that working with males entails.

fems to my perspective are just as viable an alternative as working with clones for many purposes. when i do a landrace preservation run i choose to work with regular seeds and as many different seeds of that particular strain as possible using open pollenization techniques to preserve the historical attributes present in the unworked landrace strain.

like an earlier poster stated; fems are just another tool in the toolbox. don't hate on hammers 'cause some nitwit can't use a hammer properly.

Granted I am an amateur pollen chucker, but I by no means "rely" on "competent" breeders for a "base". Nonsense, I take gifted seed and try to breed it like any other plant in the garden. Some of the most "competent" breeders seem to be resellers. Growing the seed isn't the art. A breeder is a competent individual who has an innate ability @ selection and/or opinions and those actions [in my humble opinion] produce the art. It's a symbiotic feeling, rarely relayed through a typed post on the intrawebs, unfortunately.

I guess the light I see, is that I am not trying to "rely" on other [commercialized] strains, I would rather take the effort and start from scratch and find my own base. Most people don't want to do that, but in my opinion, what are you then at that point?

Female seeds are definitely in my arsenal.

 

[Oregonism]

thanks for the tip, i appreciate the more experienced voices in here, I will proceed with caution and im glad a fellow grapehead chimed in. Grapes are how i choose to enjoy my indica. I will be selecting a nice slow short grape pheno and cross it with an autoflowering mango called mini mango. Wish me luck on achieving fast flowering tropical grapey goodness! for goodness sake!

As of tonight, I just found a handful of S2 beans from a Stinky Pinky crossed w/ The Purps. I don't have an indoor setup to get going this winter, sucks. This one has my eye!

Have had Nirvana's? Mango, not my favorite breeder by any means, but definitely some of the tastiest I have had of theirs. [bubblicous, Master K and Jock Horror]

 

[Hempe]

mini mango is a cross of lowrdyer mint which is an autoflowering fluke matanuska mint that auto'd on its own, so basically my plans are to make an earlier flowering grape strain with the following genetic ((Matanuska Mint x Nirvana Mango) X Grape indica)
the grape indica will most likely be deep purple from TGA. Have heard about the good indica stone the mango brings and am eager to use this in a useful cross in order to bring the availability of grape genetics to a much higher level in my area.

Ima call it mini grango

but before that i have plans to make an earlier flowering version of Green Crack (like thats possible) lol
First i am going to take some GC pollen using the colloidal silver method and apply it to an autoflowering version of amnesia haze called short term amnesia. I already know which phenos to select for as i've grown it before. I plan on calling this hazy dazy. or The Crack of Dawn, who knows it all still in the blue print phase right now, but i am doing my GC's right now and they should be ready to get sprayed here in a couple weeks
The genetics are as follows
((Amnesia Haze x Lowryder) X (sssc 89' Sk#1 x Unknown Californian indica))

Have a few other ideas

 

[Thule]

..

 

[Enlighten]

Tom, let me put it in a way I hope you will find hard to argue with.
You calim that the intersexed trait is irrelevant to selection, I have never seen you say that its a requirement in selecting a female or a male. Therefore, if it is an undesirable trait for the end user, why would you not eliminate them from the line, and then continue your work from a line that does not possess them? Or do you claim that the intersexed trait is an indicator to something else? I hope not, I would hope that you see this as being a trait in its own right. And once we accept this as a basic principle, then there is no argument left to retain it against the wishes of the end user.

GMT, there are hot arguments whether or not to deal with these things now or later, I fall into the camp of dealing with them later. I am not alone. Anybody who thinks they can deal with it all, all the time, are kin to folks who buy lottery tickets, it don't wash. You are removing the very best over and over again by placing that particular prerequisite into your what are all early breeding programs. This is known, know it. You have your eye on ridiculous things too early in your breeding program, you need to think about narrowing your focus on what matters, accomplish that, then worry about this other shit.

I agree with you both. Both arguments are valid.
Like begets like. Its as simple as that.

The solution is one that i have adopted in my own personal line.
Line division where NOTHING is lost to selection.

Tom, the road to homozygosity is best achieved though selection now rather than later. By that i do not mean cull undesirables then risk loosing quality. You need to change camps brother.

Attempting to isolate homozygous dominant genotypes should be started right away.

 

[Hempe]

only about 3 posts in this thread are worth reading and this isn't one of them

 

[Hammerhead]

You might end up with plants like this so leave all the good stabalized fem seeds for me to work with please Pics dont mean much but dam there sure purdy

Purple Frostbyte
Im probably going to harvest these next weekend

 

[Enlighten]

only about 3 posts in this thread are worth reading and this isn't one of them

When you breed with 1:1 known intersex what do you expect the results to be?

No matter what sort of twist you put on it the frequency of intersex plants in the progeny will rize.

 

[Hammerhead]

I can only go by what my garden produces... This strain(them mom used came from s1) out of 100+ plants 2 had naners none went hermie. I cant say with 100% certainty I did not cause it.. I did takes 100's of pics if not thousands with the flash in the dark... I could have triggered the recessive trait. I know some are more sensitive then others within the same line...If I only get 2 plants out of 100 with some naners im OK with that...

 

[Enlighten]

i am making seeds with fem seeds as the fathers. this is all you need to know. The pollinated plants will all be from normal seeds.

Your breeding breeding program sounds more than a little but dodgy to me.

Your playing with fire. Unless you goal is a line that no one else wants to breed with and one that will have some nice seedy buds to smoke at the end then your on track.


Did you do any sort of testing of the female fathers and the regular mothers to see just how photosensitive they are before the cross?

I can only go by what my garden produces... This strain(them mom used came from s1) out of 100+ plants 2 had naners none went hermie. I cant say with 100% certainty I did not cause it.. I did takes 100's of pics if not thousands with the flash in the dark... I could have triggered the recessive trait. I know some are more sensitive then others within the same line...If I only get 2 plants out of 100 with some naners im OK with that...

I'm not trying to tell you how to run your show. But maybe you should mention some of these things in your bay listings.

 

[Tom Hill]

The reason we don't begin by selecting within and for mostly continuously varying quantitative traits (like yield, resistance to stressors/hermies, harvest date, and etc) at the beginning of a breeding program is because they are continuously varying in all but the most homozygous of lines. If like matter of factly and always bothered to beget like, we'd all be going yippie ki-yay all the way home - we're not.

But by the time we have fixed the simpler, Mendelian traits (the tri's, leaf shape, etc), probabilities have risen to an acceptable level regarding the isolation/selection of individuals homozygous for more complex traits.

Attempting to locate homozygosity among highly heterozygous individuals without the aid of marker technology really is akin to buying lottery tickets. It simply doesn't make a whole lot of sense, biting off too much, particularly with the numbers and selection methods we are speaking of, it's an excellent example of the wheel spin imo. -T

 

[Tom Hill]

When you breed with 1:1 known intersex what do you expect the results to be?

No matter what sort of twist you put on it the frequency of intersex plants in the progeny will rize.

That is simply not true, nor is it true of any other polygenetic trait we might be selecting for/tracking.

That's my whole point, that we should not be placing such value in phenotypic evaluation neither so early in a breeding program, or while using selection methods such as full sib family selection where the numbers of families are relatively low. Quite often here on these boards, we are talking about one or two families. Phenotype-eval-based selection borders on the ridiculous in these types of scenarios.

These are not twists, these are proven theories, and why modern day plant breeding has moved away from the methods used previously particularly in the case of dealing with quantitative trait loci.

Indeed, breeding to an intersex phenotype plant can and often will give us less intersex plants within her progeny than breeding to her non-intersex phenotype sister will.

Eg, sister one may have a low amount of sex-modifying genes, but express as intersex. Sister two though she hasn't shown it, may have many sex-modifying genes, all of them masked in heterozygotes, and hence the lack of expression.

 

[GMT]

Tell me something Tom, in your view, or experience, do you believe that the intersexed phenomenon is due to autosomes not responding so well to the suppression of the sex chromosomes, or do you feel as I do (pure instinct not backed by anything), that they are due to insufficient suppression from the sex chromosomes?

 

[Tom Hill]

My current thought is to believe "C", ie, all of the above, if I am understanding your thought. That is to say that there may likely be some interaction between autosomal and psuedoautosomal regions, and that weaknesses as well as strengths is both those regions will be added up and brought to bear in any particular environment at the end of the day. There could be a type of on/off switch located on the PAR, and that switch could be strong or weak, new or faulty - easily or not easily triggered. Likewise speaking purely autosomally, resistance to environmental stressors likely exist as they do in resistance to various pathogen for example, preventing the threshold being met, or hormones produced,, and thereby preventing the signal being sent to the PAR switch (if such an animal exists) in the first place.

Even if this is a case of purely autosomally controlled hormone production and there is zero "communication" between that and the sex chromosomes or the par, this would still be a very complicated animal we are looking at when resistance, thresholds, penetrance and etc, are taken into account. Definitely and obviously imo, not an area where phenotypic selection is worth a whole hell of a lot.

 

[FOE20]

How can you be certain it wasn't the Line seems to be what matters no?....Test the parents well first...
Each plant is its own being...Look at flower times...like everyone in every region can use the same flower time...

Test mother stock in all sorts of ways..
Altered veg light cycles, diff formula variations, diff mediums, diff styes, diff flower times...over a few years on avr first before even bothering...
If I use a line selected by others I hunt every piece of info about their work first before taking the time with the line..
And IMO yes Try to Stress them...a true plant is a True Plant..and for True Breeding Plants we want solid true Parents..
Ever wonder why we only see a few nanners on some and total blown out rev on others?....was it really your method now that you think about it?...Did it look perfect but for no reason throw sacs?..
For a True breeder who knows their lines knows they can kick that mother in every direction and she will stay solid as a rock...
This giving way to working very good quality Femizined seed..

Ever had a Auto flower from a Line you only started to explore thinking its a trait passed on by the work done?...
Or is it that its just a sensitive line that unless dialed specifically will trigger easily..knowing these lil things means allot..

Yes we all are doing a 1:1...But how well was that 1 Stress tested..
A easy Flower trigger is exactly what Im avoiding...So I start by Pulling that trigger...
But Never Pull that Trigger on Untested work is all Im saying..
If I wanted Fem lines I would over mature my Mother to the point she threw Late nanners and let it polly itself..If this same mother Hermied early do to no serious reasoning than it gets put on the shelf and the seed trashed...But how would I know if I did the reversion?...
If that Female is a true Female wonder woman Cultivar she won't give a inch no matter what you do..Beyond whats considered normal stress related hermi functions like survival traits at end of season...But if it does Hermi than least allow for standard reasoning...
Did it trigger fast?...did it trigger late?...Was it caused by light?...was it temps?....Least you'll know something about it first..
Im sure this post will be torn down to so no worries..
Either way the whole thing would be more civil if it was less dramatic in here...

gimme Clark, DJ and VicHigh any day...as their work still stands strong in my eyes and mind..
FOE20

 

[siftedunity]

some of the strains which we deem as true plants will certainly be decendants of plants which in the wild may have hermied and produced female offspring. so breed with the most stable thing you can find. reguardless of the parentage..

 

[FOE20]

yea....what he said ˄˄˄
man why couldn;t I make it sound that simple..heh...
FOE20

 

[ClearBarbedFunk]

Hmmmm............just do the effin work, see what ya get. listenen to all the misc ramblins quoted from book/forum read mofos that havent ever even selfed a plant, let alone do a basic cross, gets you absolutely nowhere.

im so sick of guys statin crap like your gonna pass that hermie shit on to the next gen is simply false. ive used hermie pollen, selfed pollen, regular pollen, dry pollen, wet pollen, yellow pollen, and any other pollen ya can dig up, works just fine, and my shit aint throwin no nanners down the road after multiple gens.

ya wanna know what happens do the freakin deed and quit guessin