HEADY BLUNTS' LIVING SOIL EXTRAVAGANJA

[dank.frank]

I'm not too entirely sure - to be completely honest - I understand it to be rather simple - only using plant based matter as the source for your plants nutrition...

The question again - is not - does it work - but is it actually, BETTER - in terms of recreating soil?

I really see it as a HUGE marketing ploy - personally - the "veganics" approach - simply because, again - in the attempt to reproduce the natural world on a controlled / small scale - I see "veganics" as kind of missing the mark - the natural world again, contains feces, blood, bone, etc ...

See - personally - a more accurate term of "veganic" liquid nutrients would simply be to call them by what they are - FPE - fermented plant extracts.

I just don't see how leaving out part of natural order in what is supposed to be a superior feeding method makes sense...

And technically - if we are to be technical - the plant is still utilizing such things as a result of breakdown and then the excrement of the microbes - is actual plant available nutrition -

So wouldn't such processes nullify the base concept of "veganic" gardening in the first place?!?


dank.Frank

 

[ClackamasCootz]

I'm not too entirely sure - to be completely honest - I understand it to be rather simple - only using plant based matter as the source for your plants nutrition...

The question again - is not - does it work - but is it actually, BETTER - in terms of recreating soil?

I really see it as a HUGE marketing ploy - personally - the "veganics" approach - simply because, again - in the attempt to reproduce the natural world on a controlled / small scale - I see "veganics" as kind of missing the mark - the natural world again, contains feces, blood, bone, etc ...

See - personally - a more accurate term of "veganic" liquid nutrients would simply be to call them by what they are - FPE - fermented plant extracts.

I just don't see how leaving out part of natural order in what is supposed to be a superior feeding method makes sense...

And technically - if we are to be technical - the plant is still utilizing such things as a result of breakdown and then the excrement of the microbes - is actual plant available nutrition -

So wouldn't such processes nullify the base concept of "veganic" gardening in the first place?!?


dank.Frank

dank.Frank

You won't get any argument from me on any of your points and especially those that I put in bold. The 'veganics' as promoted by a couple of jamokes is beyond marketing hype - it's delusional and shifts from week to week depending on who is kicking-back the most money for promotional considerations.

Back to soil amendments in general - almost everything that is promoted at garden forums (regardless of the plants being discussed) like blood, bone, fish meal, fish bone meal, kelp meal, plant seed meals, etc. are primarily used in animal feeds. Even 'rock dusts' fall into this group.

IOW, far more kelp (marine algae) ends up in livestock feed than ever hits the soil. Same with seed meals - Soybean, Flaxseed, Canola (Rape Seed), Cottonseed, etc. are all widely used to feed livestock. The amount that ends up in gardens or even organic farms is a nothing - not even a blip on the screen. Zilch.

So now we're back to evaluating one material over the other as well as looking at the cost. Here are the current prices for various amendments (plant & animal) for 50# bags at the local farm store:

Blood Meal - $47.00
Fish Meal (organic) - $68.00
Bone Meal - $34.00
Fish Bone Meal (organic) - $29.00
Crustacean Meal - $36.00 (crab & shrimp - Calcium Carbonate & Chitin) -

Alfalfa (organic) - $19.40
Kelp meal (organic) - $58.00
Canola Meal - $18.00
Flaxseed Meal (organic) - $32.00
Soybean Meal (organic) - $35.00

So I'll just take the bone meals and use them for comparison. I'll throw up the NPK numbers because they tend to mean 'something' to most gardeners but I wouldn't be in that group......

Bone Meal - 3-15-0 ($34.00)
Fish Bone Meal - 4-20-0 ($29.00)

The fish bone meal is certified organic (USDA, OT, CCOF, OTA) and the bovine and/or swine bone meal is not. It has a higher NPK profile and costs about 15% less.

That's how I evaluate an amendment. Price vs. value and more important is the source. I'm not all that excited about supporting livestock industry and their weird approach to feed and supplements. But that's a philosophical argument perhaps but if you can convince yourself that Blood Meal is worth 250% the cost of organic Alfalfa meal then you should go with that amendment.

I don't believe that you can justify the price difference on any level.

YMMV

CC

 

[dank.frank]

there are certainly ways to utilize the best of these occurrences found through out the world.

Your example of using fish bone meal in place of either swine/chicken is exactly what I meant by the above comment...

There are certainly superior sources of all forms of nutrition - mercy - even lime varies on quality depending on the mined source - lol.

I had a MUCH longer reply - but it really was kind of preachy - and I don't want to detract from Headys' thread TOO much...

We'll discuss more I'm sure...


dank.Frank

 

[heady blunts]

i'm loving this conversation! don't hold back frank!

fish bone meal makes so much sense, but I am unable to source it locally. it's funny how concentrates has become a destination on my hypothetical PNW tour that i'd like to take one day.

if they opened a store here i think it would do very well. people would drive up from LA for that.

 

[dank.frank]

IN THAT CASE -

It all goes to raise the question of accurate gene representation based on introduction of environmental stimuli...

Two environments - both living - one surrounding the foliage - the other the roots.

Plants - by genetic default - are GOING to attempt to survive. A poly-hybrid allows rise of the given genetic profiles that allow it best to survive given ANY stimuli. This means - TECHNICALLY - even when we give a poor source of stimuli - the plant ALWAYS responds with the appropriate mechanics to ensure it still survives at optimum given the various stimuli...

So - if a plant has - say 3 different source of the same base nutrition - will it not then - select according to it's BEST POSSIBLE means of survival from the given stimuli that it has been presented with????

I say yes. Without question. PROOF OF THIS YOU ASK -

Just look at hydro - "direct injection" - nutrients - things that are already in a completed ionic form for instant uptake by the roots ... if input stimuli didn't matter - you wouldn't see different plant expressions from the same clone as a result of using different brands of nutrients - ie different formulations of stimuli...as Clacks just said - it isn't so much about NPK as much as it is about origin source.

You see such things all the time from grower to grower - garden to garden - and you get these massive discussions of "how to dial a plant" in for proper growth...

I say present the plant with as much beneficial variable stimuli possible- given proper respect in regards to balance with one another - and let the PLANT decide how best to present the genetic information it contains. I think this is key in making better selections from within the broader gene pool...

-SIDE TOPIC-

And I say beneficial - but I'm starting to think the "war" nature plays amongst itself - elimination of the negatives in an environment - are key to maintaining a more healthy, vigorous microbe life in the first place...

I'm not sure which one of the OFC gurus has made this comment or that I am stealing this from - but it really made sense to me:

A living soil is not truly a LIVING soil - unless like in nature - you can disregard fallen leaves - as they will simply be decomposed and broken down by the activity in the soil...

Now in nature - this normally takes time - but are we not shortening the plants cycle by light manipulations? I mean - March to October or 8wks indoors??? In our speeding up the plants life cycle, so to speak - are we not increasing the rates at which other things happen as well - are the soil microbes on sort of a super charged schedule as a result of the environmental shifts taking place so quickly.... ???...I've seen leaves look as if they suffered a full winter under debris - after only a week or so of sitting on top of the soil. How is this or why is this possible?

Thanks for the floor, Mr. Blunts.


dank.Frank

 

[ClackamasCootz]

if they opened a store here i think it would do very well. people would drive up from LA for that.

Heady

By 'LA' to you mean So-So-Cali or Louisiana?

CC

 

[heady blunts]

LA as in los angeles, california.

in my area we have a great feed and seed store that carries bulk amendments, mostly down to earth brand. if DtE makes fish bone meal, this store could probably order it for me, but when i picked up all my amendments they had just gotten a huge shipment, so the next reorder was many weeks away.

frank- i'm hoping my super-deluxe soil mix will provide that ideal environment you're talking about

madL used to talk about his soil's health in terms of how fast it "eats." i think if you were to check out the threshold between the soil and the fallen debris in a comparable wild ecosystem, i would predict that the decomposition rates are very similar.

temperature, soil composition, bacteria/fungi ratio, moisture, etc.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

I say present the plant with as much beneficial variable stimuli possible- given proper respect in regards to balance with one another - and let the PLANT decide how best to present the genetic information it contains. I think this is key in making better selections from within the broader gene pool...

I agree 100% with all of your post and in particular this one.

Let's take blood meal vs. alfalfa meal as a 'N' source or whatever benefit in the NPK arena (Law of Minimums as it's known)

If I use blood meal then I have a very limited 'nute' profile - Nitrogen, Phosphorus and a fairly wide range of Amino acids. Looking at this material in the animal feed arena will give you a much better overview on the 'other' compounds found in blood meals/flours/etc.

Fair enough.

Here are a few of the compounds in Alfalfa:

Adenine, Adenosine, Alfalfone, Alpha-Spinasterol, Alpha-Tocopherol, Aluminum, Amylase, Arabinose, Ascorbic Acid, Beta-Carotene, Beta-Sitosterol, Betaine, Biochanin-A, Biotin, Boron, Butanone, Calcium, Campesterol, Chlorophyllide-A, Choline, Chromium, Citric Acid, Coagulase, Cobalt, Coumestrol, Cryptoxanthin, Cycloartenol, Cytidine, Daidzen, Daphnoretin, Erepsin, Folacin, Formononetin, Fructose, Fumaric-Acid, Genistein, Guanine, Buanosine, Hederagenin, Hentriacontane, Inosine, Inoitol, Invertase, Iron, Isocytsoine, Ll-Homostachydrine and another 150 with Triacontanol, Silicon, Silica and Saponins leading up the list.

$19.50 for 50 lbs. organically grown in Eastern Oregon vs. Blood Meal @ $49.00 for the same quantity. I can't speak about the suggested application rate.

That's as simply as I can put it - one is a dead material and is highly manipulated during growth via steroids, growth enhancers, vaccines, etc. vs. one of the rawest and least processed material at our disposal. Kelp meal would the only one that is 'more raw'

I mean blood meal is $9.00 less than a bag of kelp meal? That doesn't make sense on any level - or at least it doesn't to me.

Does that make sense?

CC

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Heady

How close are you to Tustin - around Katella Ave and the Newport Fwy?

CC

 

[Mister_D]

Clack, Frank, Heady, excellent discussion gentlemen K+ to all


Edit - Clack wouldn't let me rep ya again yet, but just know you deserve another point

 

[dank.frank]

And to think further along the lines of encouraging "war" naturally between the good and the bad in the soil ...

I think THIS in effect - is perhaps, the largest benefit of a living mulch. As the mulch is trimmed and the tops falls to the soil surface for decomposition -

and before I carry on - a simple comparison - white blood cells increasing in number to aide the fight against an infection -

The beneficial bacteria, I assume - would rise in population - form a barrier against the "infection" ie decay taking place upon the surface level - and then siege it to death and / or pick off the one that dare encroach upon the root zones...

I'm pretty sure, FWIW, I've been reading stuff posted by JayKush and I'm pretty sure much of this thought process was triggered as an extension of what he was posting -

key difference being he was posting fact -

where as I am posting a bit of speculation in the mix now... but others may have the actual empirical data to prove such things and I may just not be aware of it...

But this natural processes of having to "fend off" is very essential to the well being of us as human in building immunities and resistances to things...

Do we perhaps over pamper our plants - creating a weaker species by accident??? OBVIOUSLY not in a single generation, but in broad practice...cumulatively...


dank.Frank

 

[Gascanastan]

The gods use fish bone meal,so naturally I do too.

Fish bone meal is far better product than mammalian bone meal and phos. bat guano. You could actually eat it if you were hungry enough...and be fine.

Seems the lesser of several evil's IMO.

Veganic as a bottled and marketed product is laughable in reality. I'd like to see the cost of running a 10k garden with bottled veganic nutes as compared to the methods Jay employs. Big difference between what Jay does and a bottled veganic line.

 

[ClackamasCootz]

GC

GO's 'vegan' line couldn't even get out of the gate without stumbling and tripping. Lots of bottles got yanked and shipped back. [cite]

How can you f*ck up liquid gunk this bad?

 

[Gascanastan]

Where the 'fail' lies from a normal person's POV is in the amount of actual nutrient benefit the bottle can actually hold. Stop the car there's a red light in paradox city~

as for the link CC..WOW!

 

[ClackamasCootz]

GC

The lord loves a workin' man - or at least the ODA does, eh? LMAO

BTW - I'm sitting on 2 yards of worm castings (homemade), another yard of black leaf mold and about .5 yard of a thermal compost I did last fall which has been 'curing' for 9 months.

80 gallons of different straight 'botanical teas' - Comfrey, Borage, Rhubarb leaves (pesticide) and Horsetail Fern tea (actually smells worse than Comfrey)

I wonder what my 'nutrient profile' would work out to be compared to Biocanna, GO, Advanced Nutrients, Botanicare, Bountea, etc., etc., etc.

I'm thinking that I'd come out on top - certainly on $$$$ comparisons.

CC

 

[Gascanastan]

The more I utilize EWC,comfrey,nettle,horsetail,etc...the more I realize how pathetic bottled nutes are. BUT then you have the "I live in NY city WTF am I supposed to do" crowd......well I used to know this nut who employed these plants living in NYC. Not out of the question by any means.

 

[heady blunts]

coot how do you make your horsetail tea? I boil it for ten minutes and let it cool, but I've never noticed a foul odor.

i was also wondering, and I think it was Darc that mentioned mulching with it, but it seems like it would take a very long time to break down that way.

 

[DARC MIND]

thats why i use it heady,the mulch acts as well a mulch, to grow my living ground cover seeds...once these grow,soil level drops and living mulch rises & gets cut back
so now were adding "greens" to really activate the soil cycling of dryed horsetail "brown"
its what works for me

 

[ClackamasCootz]

heady

I had about 5 buckets full of the 'weird' version of this plant to work with. I just chopped it up with a Weed Wacker and covered with water......

BTW - Orange County Farm Supply is well worth your time to contact. One-stop shopping

 

[SilverSurfer_OG]

Nice thread Heady

I love getting my inputs from the animal feed stores. Alfalfa (lucerne) is readily available for a good price. Ditto mollasses, cottonseed meal, kelp flakes and various bagged and pelletised manures/fertilisers. Some are certified organic.

My main inputs this coming season are going to be pig poo and compost made from as much goodness as possible. That and some chicken manure pellets plus a good layer of hay mulch.

Going to try planting along side potatoes, tomatoes and other flowers and herbs.

Been working the beds with my pig this winter and planting potatoes and broad beans to get things started. Foxgloves, lupins and calendula will be utilised as companions. Chamomile, parsley and comfrey are main herbs. Some will be living mulch, some weed control and others liquid manure (full on veganics mate!)

Received some aloe vera powder online and will be using along with my powdered kelp plus fulvic acid.

Good shit