Light controller w/timer for small kit DIY

[High74]

That's what Im going to have to do, I'm a one man band with a bad back so its not easy for me lol plus the fact the neighbors just sit in there house and look at me from the windows lol

I woke up in a better mood this morning, I have so much do to with no help. But im going to do this if its the last thing I do, Like Hammer said this is a learning lesson


Ill let you guys know how it goes, thanks for all the support.. words go a long way

 

[rives]

It looks to me like the easiest way for you to get what you need is to add a 12 gauge 120v cord and plug to the box if you have a 120vac receptacle nearby. You could change out the 4-wire cordset to a 3-wire, so that the breakers and the 240v receptacles would be running on your dryer circuit. The missing neutral would then be supplied by the 12 gauge cord that you add, and the power feeding the inline fuse that goes to the timer would be removed from the contactor and connected to this cord also. How much 120v equipment are you going to run off of this panel?

As 420shooter said, all of the outlets are timed as the panel currently sits.

*edit* I was typing as you posted. If you can change out the 240v receptacle and the wire feeding it to a 4-wire, that is definitely the cleanest option. I had the impression that you couldn't do that, hence the above option.

 

[Hammerhead]

morning,,, I was thinking he could use the white wire from the trigger. Just change out the 3 prong for a 4 prong wire the 4 prong with the 3 wires so the controler will plug in. Will this work rives should work. He gets the neutral off of the trigger cord. even if its on a timer it should still go though no??

 

[rives]

morning,,, I was thinking he could use the white wire from the trigger. Just change out the 3 prong for a 4 prong wire the 4 prong with the 3 wires so the controler will plug in. Will this work rives should work. He gets the neutral off of the trigger cord. even if its on a timer it should still go though no??

HH, I don't see a trigger cord on this panel, but that is the essence of what I was talking about. The 240/120v 4-wire cordset would need to be changed to a 240v 3-wire, leaving the receptacle and existing house wiring intact. As I think you mentioned before, ready-made cordsets for ranges and dryers are available at the big-box stores.

 

[Hammerhead]

OH YA I dont see one...

 

[High74]

an email conversation

an email conversation

Don’t quite understand what you are talking about with the main breaker: The box is exactly how described and pictured with the exception that I used an internal 4A fuse to protect the control circuit (timer & relay) rather than a 15 or 20A breaker.
We may have talked about a three prong plug on the phone but your order explicitly indicates NEMA 14-30 power cord with no note requesting anything other than ordered. There was some talk about the receptacles but your latest email indicated you wanted the correct 6-15 & 5-15 receptacles.
To rectify the NEMA 14-30P cord, we can either change out the power cord or the receptacle.
If your current dryer outlet is wired using a steel box & conduit running back to the main panel, it might be easiest to replace the receptacle. This would make the install code compliant and supply a neutral & ground to the controller.
If your three prong outlet is in a box like this, with either metal conduit running to the main panel OR a ground wire inside the box, your best option is to replace the receptacle (I can send one or you can buy local cheap, like $6).
If you remove the cover (KILL POWER FIRST) there might be an unused ground wire inside that can be used if not run with metal conduit. Either is a suitable ground

If you could send a picture of your dryer outlet that would be great –you just want to make sure there is a ground wire or steel conduit running back to the main panel to provide the ground.
outlet box will look like this:
Replacing this box is a bigger job but will work is connected with metal conduit.

Not one of these:


Another option is to simply replace the power cord with a three-prong cord. I could send the replacement cord out to you (priority mail will arrive Monday or tues if I get it out today). It’s very easy to install, all you need is a flat screwdriver. I just need to know if I used a steel or plastic connector where the cord enters the controller box.

Neither option is difficult. Just let me know which you prefer and I’ll send out the parts.

I apologize for the confusion but I answer dozens of emails and talk to a lot of people every day in addition to building two to four controllers. Unless a request is made in the invoice or a note is left with the order, I have no way of knowing that you wanted a three-prong cord when the order says four-prong. When I build the boxes, I have the order in front of me and check the email address for any special requests. Most custom requests include a message with the paypal order or are spelled out in the invoice I send the customer.

Thanks, DW

PS: my email archive box must be full –which is why you received a “mailbox full message”

From:
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 4:35 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Hey Dan, Spoke on the phone



12:57 PM (0 minutes ago)

to dweddle
Dan, Thank you for getting back to me. Please send the 3 prong asap I needed this unit a month ago. When I first ordered the unit I called you twice and both times we spoke, The high lite of the conversation was that the unit had to be a 3 prong, After I got off the phone with you I sent you an email stating that I need a 3 prong, then I sent you another email saying please put the right wires in the box cause someone I know who bought a box off you had to change the wires, this is what my friend said about the box that he got When you get it make sure you look at it good. I had to rebuild the one I got. You can not put 15a outlets on a 30a line.. I had to change most of the wiring and all of the outlets as well as the 30a breaker. I replaced it with 2 20a breakers... Please make sure it is safe mine was not..

So that was the second email I sent you and then waited over a month to get the box, now I cant use it. I'm sorry Dan but I'm up set. I also thought the box was going to come with a main breaker like it does in the picture on you're website it does not. you could have used two 20 amp breakers but you used one double pull 30 amp breaker.
I just feel like you took the cheapest parts and skipped corners.

At this point all I ask of you is to send me the right parts I need to fix this so it is usable.
Dan another thing that I just thought of is I don't even know which ones are timed ? Do you remember?
I'm out here by myself with no friends and no family and NO MONEY . I need this box to work

Please send the 3 prong, the connector you used is metal here are some pics of the box you sent me

 

[Hammerhead]

SEND HIM ANOTHER MEASGE. If I change to the 3 prong where am I going to get the Neutral from?? Swapping that dryer cord will not fix the whole issue...Im pretty sure he will want the white wire connected to the grd wire...rives you think he will ask him to do that??

 

[High74]

Ok thanks Hammer I just sent him another email and asked that question

 

[rives]

SEND HIM ANOTHER MEASGE. If I change to the 3 prong where am I going to get the Neutral from?? Swapping that dryer cord will not fix the whole issue...Im pretty sure he will want the white wire connected to the grd wire...rives you think he will ask him to do that??

I've never dealt with the man, so I have no idea what he will ask, but that isn't a satisfactory solution. Nor is his statement that conduit (if used) can be used for the ground - there are far too many variables to state that. Without knowing if it has bonding bushings or approved locknuts, if it is rigid or EMT, if it is actually a continuous run, etc., then it isn't an option that he should present.

High 74, how much 120v equipment are you planning on running on this panel? That is going to impact the neutral sizing.

 

[Hammerhead]

well if H74 can get most of his gear in 240v then he can use the 3 prong without issues. The timer wont work though

All I see to do this the right way is to add a Neutral wire to the dryer outlet. That will fix it so you can plug in and work. To make is safe more changes will need to happen. I dont like the 5-15r or the 6-15r. I would replace those with 6-20r 5-20r. I would change out that 30a breaker and install 2pole 20amp breakers..

 

[rives]

well if H74 can get most of his gear in 240v then he can use the 3 prong without issues. The timer wont work though

All I see to do this the right way is to add a Neutral wire to the dryer outlet. That will fix it so you can plug in and work. To make is safe more changes will need to happen. I dont like the 5-15r or the 6-15r. I would replace those with 6-20r 5-20r. I would change out that 30a breaker and install 2pole 20amp breakers..

Getting a new feed to the dryer receptacle is definitely the best solution, but if that isn't possible, adding the extra 120v cord as I mentioned above would work. The neutral from the new cord could replace the existing one from the 4-wire cordset, allowing the timer, the contactor, and the 120v receptacles to work. If it came unplugged, the timer would shut off, killing the power to the 120v receptacles. My only concern would be overloading the neutral in the new cord if too much load was applied to the 120v receptacles.

 

[Hammerhead]

im following you he would just install a 120v cord and only use the Neutral wire install that wire to the Neutral buss and discounted the white from the 240v power cord.

 

[Tactician]

Don't send that fuck anymore messages, that loadcenter is a joke. I would look at how the wires are attached to the 120V and 240V receptacles. He probably didn't use ring terminals for the screws and wrapped the stranded wire around the screws. Since there are quick-connect terminals on the contactor, why not use .25" terminal lugs.
The two 120V receptacles could have had 2 neutrals instread of one. After telling him several times what you wanted. I would inspect the receptacles to see if they even have any markings or CSA/UL approved. I was wondering why he only gave you a 240V breaker. There is 4 spaces, 8 circuits, enough for two x 240V ballasts per a CT breaker, quad style, then the other space could be for 2 x 15A breakers to balance the loads, even if you don't use that much amperage per breaker.

Rives has the best idea, adding a 12awg 120V cord is an option.

 

[High74]

It means a lot that you guys take the time time write this stuff out but I cant understand any of it. Turn off turn on that's all I know .

Here is a new email that he just sent me

Lighting circuits can be connected to up to a 50A breaker when the connectors & wiring feeding the lights are at least 125% of the actual load (of the individual lights).
NEC 2011, Section 410.62(C)
(2) Provided with Mogul-Base, Screw Shell Lampholders.
Electric-discharge luminaires provided with mogulbase,
screw shell lampholders shall be permitted to be connected
to branch circuits of 50 amperes or less by cords
complying with 240.5. Receptacles and attachment plugs
shall be permitted to be of a lower ampere rating than the
branch circuit but not less than 125 percent of the luminaire
full-load current.

Your friend should have done his homework before wasting his time. Wiring a control panel is a bit different that running romex in your house…

Powerbox
Titan
Cap
Etc.
All connect 15A receptacles directly to a 30A feeder or breaker (60A in the case of Powerbox & they somehow got UL listing). Some models have onboard short circuit protection and some rely on the breaker in the main panel.


You purchased our entry level light controller. The standard configuration has ONE circuit in addition to the control circuit (which is protected by the internal 4A fuse). Other models come supplies with multiple 20A circuits, connected to an independent relay and banks of receptacles. None of my standard models have a main breaker, they are all main-lug panels unless a main breaker panel is specified.
The Basic & Basic Plus controllers have ONE 30A CIRCUIT, one 40A contactor and four duplex receptacles which can be 120 or 240v. That is what you ordered and is exactly what you received.

If you want to add a 20A 2P breaker or two one-pole breakers for the 120v circuits that’s entirely up to you but they will not be controlled by the timer. You can also bypass the timer by connecting the 120’s directly to the existing 30A breaker if continuous operation is desired.

I’ll send out a NEMA 10-30P cord kit and a bonding strap to connect the neutral & ground together. Alternately, you can connect the controller’s enclosure to a suitable ground (cold water pipe or the ground wire that comes out of your main panel and connects to the ground source). Please return the 14-30P cord after you replace it.

The NEMA 10-30R & 10-50R receptacles were allowed to be used for dryers & ranges until 1997. Then the four-prong NEMA 14-30 & 14-50R were required. The 10-30 & 10-50 are wired with two non-grounded (hot) conductors and a neutral. The neutral (grounded conductor) was allowed to be connected to the chassis of the appliance in place of the ground (logic behind this stupid idea was that they connect to the same place in the service entrance anyway).
Using the neutral as a ground or the ground as a neutral works & will trip breakers to clear short circuit but it was a bad idea and I don’t know why it took until 1997 for them to outlaw the three-prong plug.

 

[High74]

I really want to just send this box back, What do you guys think I should do?

He says he will send the 3 prong but I don't know if that will kill the timed outlets.
He wont tell me which ones are timed, I told him I needed the 120 timed but have a feeling he put the 240 timed. I'm back to being so frustrated I cant even see straight

 

[High74]

im thinking of going to lowes or home depo and making this box myself with a 3 prong

 

[Hammerhead]

lol see I told ya he would ask to connect the ground with the white. He said the same to me. I posted that in my thread and rives did not agree with his interpretation of the code..


3 PRONG PLUG wont work my friend. there only good for 240v....you wont get your 120v with a 3 prong...The timmer and 120v outlets wont work without the white wire


Just stop contact with this dude.. We can fix it... Just go buy a 3 prong cord and a standard 120v cord 6' long with wire on one end. take the 4 prong plug off and install the 3 prong do not connect the white wire. Install the 120v cord inside the unit and attach the white wire to the white buss bar. Plug in the 120v cord to the wall outlet and plug in the 240v dryer outlet. everything should work now. set your timmer and test it

 

[High74]

unreal

 

[Hammerhead]

can you add up your amps for the 120v equipment for us...

He even asked you to return the 4 prong cord lol. I would keep it.

 

[rives]

Here is a new email that he just sent me

Lighting circuits can be connected to up to a 50A breaker when the connectors & wiring feeding the lights are at least 125% of the actual load (of the individual lights).
NEC 2011, Section 410.62(C)
(2) Provided with Mogul-Base, Screw Shell Lampholders.
Electric-discharge luminaires provided with mogulbase,
screw shell lampholders shall be permitted to be connected
to branch circuits of 50 amperes or less by cords
complying with 240.5. Receptacles and attachment plugs
shall be permitted to be of a lower ampere rating than the
branch circuit but not less than 125 percent of the luminaire
full-load current.

Your friend should have done his homework before wasting his time. Wiring a control panel is a bit different that running romex in your house…

Powerbox
Titan
Cap
Etc.
All connect 15A receptacles directly to a 30A feeder or breaker (60A in the case of Powerbox & they somehow got UL listing). Some models have onboard short circuit protection and some rely on the breaker in the main panel.

This is the same bullshit that he told HH. He is leaving off the numerous stipulations that follow, all of which must be complied with. This is for industrial luminaires hanging immediately below the receptacle, with a factory-made and code-compliant cordset.

I’ll send out a NEMA 10-30P cord kit and a bonding strap to connect the neutral & ground together. Alternately, you can connect the controller’s enclosure to a suitable ground (cold water pipe or the ground wire that comes out of your main panel and connects to the ground source). Please return the 14-30P cord after you replace it.
The NEMA 10-30R & 10-50R receptacles were allowed to be used for dryers & ranges until 1997. Then the four-prong NEMA 14-30 & 14-50R were required. The 10-30 & 10-50 are wired with two non-grounded (hot) conductors and a neutral. The neutral (grounded conductor) was allowed to be connected to the chassis of the appliance in place of the ground (logic behind this stupid idea was that they connect to the same place in the service entrance anyway).
Using the neutral as a ground or the ground as a neutral works & will trip breakers to clear short circuit but it was a bad idea and I don’t know why it took until 1997 for them to outlaw the three-prong plug.

So if he knows that bonding these together is a stupid idea (which indeed it is), why is he recommending it to you as a solution?

If you get a 12/3 extension cord (heavy-duty, look at the wire gauge), you can cut the female end off and use it as I said in my previous posts. You will want to use all of the conductors - simply remove the in-line fuse from where it connects to the contactor and wire nut it to the black wire in the cut-off extension cord. The white wire will go where the white wire from the 4-conductor cordset goes, and tie in the ground.

Settle down and quit freaking out - I know that this is unfamiliar territory, but it is actually pretty simple and you will learn a lot!