What's new

Spurr's groundbreaking fert. mixes and methods (YouTube screen-cast and web site!)

spurr

Active member
Veteran
Antimicrobial (bacteriostatic and fungistatic) for stock solutions:

To keep algae and microbes from growing in stock solutions (ex., feeding off of CO2, light, P, NH4, NO3, DPTA chelating agent, etc.), keep them in the dark and keep them cool. However, adding antimicrobial(s) is how most (all?) manufactures make stock solutions, ex., I assume General Hydroponics adds them. I know Bio Nova adds sodium benzoate some of it's products, ex., "NoburN" at 0.1% (1,000 ppm). FWIW, 0.1% (by weight) is the max allowed under U.S. FDA law in food products, and 0.1% is the max allowed in cat and dog food under AFCO guidelines.

Daniel (author of HydrBuddy) wrote a good blog post on this topic and sodium benzoate (an FDA approved chemical food preservative) here. I think anyone who wants to make stock solutions should read his blog post.

I am going to add 100 ppm (0.1 g/L) sodium benzoate to stock solution A and B, I doubt C (potassium silicate) needs it, but I could be wrong. Between 100 and 200 mg/L sodium benzoate may work better. Sodium benzoate works best in water with acidic pH. I chose 100 ppm sodium benzoate because I want to limit the sodium benzoate in the reservoir (i.e., "working solution"), and both stock solution A and B will be adding sodium benzoate to the working solution.

Sodium benzoate is cheap, like $6 for 8 oz on Ebay.
 

Rukind

Member
Citric acid is a very good pH buffer (from basic swings), that is why I included it, as well as it's other great properties of helping keep P soluble, and it lowers pH.

Using a pH buffering system of potassium carbonate and citric acid works very well, they complement each other. The blog entries by Daniel explain why and proves the science.

The problem most people have with citric acid is they don't add enough to get the pH buffer qualities. You may want to read the two blog entries by Daniel, they prove how well citric acid can buffer pH. But > 0.01 g/L needs to be used ...

The other problem most people have is their NO3:NH4 ratio is crazy, like greater than 20:1. That means the roots are pumping out bicarbonate exudates like made, while only exuding H+ proton rarely (as compared to bicarbonates). If the growers NO3:NH4 ratio isn't suffeicnt, then little can be done to provide strong pH buffering.

Ideally we wouldn't adjust our pH except for maybe once a week, if that.

With my method (at least) 0.02 g/L is used because the pH starts high (from potassium carbonate and potassium silicate), so we can use much citric acid. I also included a second acid, sulfruic (for veg and early-flowering) and phosphoric (for full-flowering). I included the second acids to assist citric acid in pH buffering.

Also, the boost in P for full-flowering comes much from the use of phosphoric acid instead of sulfuric acid, that is why I can boost P a lot but not affect K really at all.

My formulations should work very well for all growing methods. However, for drain-to-waste NFT or aero one would want to reduce P a bit. And coco growers who can't flush their coco well may wish to reduce the K in my formulation a little, but I doubt it's necessary; coco growers may also want to add a bit more Epsom salt to increase Mg to keep the K:Mg ratio closer to 3 (due to high K in coco that isn't very well flushed). Otherwise, all a grower needs to do is adjust EC as I wrote in earlier pages.

Note:
I'm going to look into the chemistry of flushing coco, to see if using a strongly acidic flush would dissociate K from CEC sites with greater efficiency than using RO water. From my current understanding I think it would. Ex., I have read in academic lit. using strongly acidic pH (ex., pH 4) can dissociate (remove) cations (such as K) from "exchangeable" CEC sites due to replacement of cations by H+ protons(?) from the acid. That means if we flush with strongly acidic pH (re lots of H+) we should remove greater amount of cations from CEC sites, thus removing more K than otherwise if we only used RO water. Also, the volume of water needed to flush would be reduced using a strongly acidic pH flush.



I wouldn't use lemon juice, it's got other things in it and you don't how much citric acid you're applying. You can buy citric acid, like an ounce for ~$2 at any beer brewing shop; or you can buy larger quantities for cheap from JR Peters, Ebay, etc. It's so easy to use and buy citric acid I wouldn't suggest using lemon juice.



Exceptionally well, especially because coco has no pH buffering unlike s.peat which has dolomitic and calcidic limes add to it. So the pH buffering afforded by my formulations should really help the roots take up ions efficiently. Just make sure to flush your coco well, to remove as much K as possible (see comments above about low pH flush).

Because I use high Ca, Mg, and K, and sufficient Na, the Cation Exchange sites on coco particles should fill rather quickly, after flushing. Also, my formulations provide a good Ca:Mg ratio so the "Percent Base Saturation" should contain sufficient (and mostly) Ca, which is a good for soilless. The good thing about coco is the Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC) is not overly high, it's in the medium range, lower than s.peat, humus, etc. That means using my method, one may not need to 'pre-charge' coco after flushing the coco :).


how is the ratio of nitrate and amonium on gh flora series? For coco I was gonna use heads formula until I got a tds meter so i actually can know what I am doing.

so that would be 6ml of micro and 9ml of bloom. I dont think I will be increasing the P any if you dont think it would be a good idea using GH flora. Unless you think I can add phosphoric acid without a tds meter and if it would even do any good adding it to gh flora micro and bloom.. also would solfruic acid benefit at all?

I should also just finish off my gh nutrients anyways before I start this.

so what would you recomend for coco using gh? I can use ro water or a 50/50 ro water/tap if that would be any better.

Also I purchased some citric acid so and potasium carbonate.. hoping that potasium carbonate will help with my situation.

Also I have no scale so I dont know how I am going to do all this. i cannot afford a mg scale. i used to have one but not anymore. Also I dont have a tds meter. I just bought a ro water filter.

I just wont be able to afford this stuff until january so how can I make the best of my coco with no scale, meter (besides ph)?

just stick to 2.5ml of protekt, maybe potasium carbonate but i dont know how I would measure it.. and then cirtic acid to lower my ph to 5.8? and then add 6ml of micro, 9ml of bloom. I can maybe mix up a strong citric acid solution in another container of like 500ml and then just use a syring to add to my nutrient solution until it goes down to a ph of 5.8?

Also If i have problems I can just flush with ro water with a ph of 4 and then a ph of 7.

I hope I am getting this right and not confusing the shit out of you lol
 

spurr

Active member
Veteran
how is the ratio of nitrate and amonium on gh flora series? For coco I was gonna use heads formula until I got a tds meter so i actually can know what I am doing.

The NO3:NH4 ratio depends upon how you mix the bottles. My GH formulation has a NO3:NH4 ratio of ~13. Don't use HEads mix, it sucks. Use my GH mix if anything, and add a bloom booster if you wish (even though P shouldn't be boosted anytime before full-flowering).

so that would be 6ml of micro and 9ml of bloom. I dont think I will be increasing the P any if you dont think it would be a good idea using GH flora. Unless you think I can add phosphoric acid without a tds meter and if it would even do any good adding it to gh flora micro and bloom.. also would solfruic acid benefit at all?
Don't use Head's old 6/9 mix, he has a newer mix with higher bloom. I wouldn't use HEads mix at all, use my GH mix for coco. And you can boost P in full-flowering with P.acid as pH down. Or use a bloom booster.

so what would you recomend for coco using gh? I can use ro water or a 50/50 ro water/tap if that would be any better.
Yes, do 50/50 tap/RO, or 25/75 tap/RO. Then use my GH mix, not Heads.

Also I purchased some citric acid so and potasium carbonate.. hoping that potasium carbonate will help with my situation.
If you have those, you can use my default values for K3CO3 and acids, and just use whatever source of potassium silicate you have. Once the pH is ~6.0, add the GH ferts. It won't be exact, but that's okay.


Also I have no scale so I dont know how I am going to do all this. i cannot afford a mg scale. i used to have one but not anymore. Also I dont have a tds meter. I just bought a ro water filter.
A mg (0.001 g) scale on Ebay is a cheap as $30. You will need an EC meter, everyone should have one. But it's not a rush.

I just wont be able to afford this stuff until january so how can I make the best of my coco with no scale, meter (besides ph)?

just stick to 2.5ml of protekt, maybe potasium carbonate but i dont know how I would measure it.. and then cirtic acid to lower my ph to 5.8? and then add 6ml of micro, 9ml of bloom. I can maybe mix up a strong citric acid solution in another container of like 500ml and then just use a syring to add to my nutrient solution until it goes down to a ph of 5.8?
pH of 5.8 isn't important, anywhere from 5.5-6.2 is fine. I would do the following:

Vegetative and early-flowering:

  1. make RO water
  2. put 95% of total water volume into reservoir
  3. add 0.01 g/L citric acid
  4. add enough K2CO3 to bring pH to 6.0
  5. add pro-tekt
  6. add sulfuric acid to bring pH to 6.0
  7. add my GH formulation (not heads)
  8. check pH and add more sulfuric acid if needed to bring pH to 6.0.
  9. add the remaining 5% volume water
  10. done

Full-flowering:

  1. make RO water
  2. put 95% of total water volume into reservoir
  3. add 0.01 g/L citric acid
  4. add enough K2CO3 to bring pH to 6.0
  5. add pro-tekt
  6. add phosphoric acid to bring pH to 6.0
  7. add my GH formulation (not heads) - and bloom booster if you wish
  8. check pH and add more sulfuric acid if needed to bring pH to 6.0.
  9. add the remaining 5% volume water
  10. done


Also If i have problems I can just flush with ro water with a ph of 4 and then a ph of 7.
Yes, but I would use pH 4.5 to 5, instead of pH 4, with living plants.
 

Rukind

Member
The NO3:NH4 ratio depends upon how you mix the bottles. My GH formulation has a NO3:NH4 ratio of ~13. Don't use HEads mix, it sucks. Use my GH mix if anything, and add a bloom booster if you wish (even though P shouldn't be boosted anytime before full-flowering).

Don't use Head's old 6/9 mix, he has a newer mix with higher bloom. I wouldn't use HEads mix at all, use my GH mix for coco. And you can boost P in full-flowering with P.acid as pH down. Or use a bloom booster.

Yes, do 50/50 tap/RO, or 25/75 tap/RO. Then use my GH mix, not Heads.

If you have those, you can use my default values for K3CO3 and acids, and just use whatever source of potassium silicate you have. Once the pH is ~6.0, add the GH ferts. It won't be exact, but that's okay.


A mg (0.001 g) scale on Ebay is a cheap as $30. You will need an EC meter, everyone should have one. But it's not a rush.

pH of 5.8 isn't important, anywhere from 5.5-6.2 is fine. I would do the following:

Vegetative and early-flowering:

  1. make RO water
  2. put 95% of total water volume into reservoir
  3. add 0.01 g/L citric acid
  4. add enough K2CO3 to bring pH to 6.0
  5. add pro-tekt
  6. add sulfuric acid to bring pH to 6.0
  7. add my GH formulation (not heads)
  8. check pH and add more sulfuric acid if needed to bring pH to 6.0.
  9. add the remaining 5% volume water
  10. done

Full-flowering:

  1. make RO water
  2. put 95% of total water volume into reservoir
  3. add 0.01 g/L citric acid
  4. add enough K2CO3 to bring pH to 6.0
  5. add pro-tekt
  6. add phosphoric acid to bring pH to 6.0
  7. add my GH formulation (not heads) - and bloom booster if you wish
  8. check pH and add more sulfuric acid if needed to bring pH to 6.0.
  9. add the remaining 5% volume water
  10. done


Yes, but I would use pH 4.5 to 5, instead of pH 4, with living plants.

thanks man this is the answer I was looking for.

is this your gh formula:

5 ml/gal GH Micro
5 ml/gal GH Grow
7 ml/gal GH Bloom
5 ml/gal CalMag+
2.5 ml/gal ProTeKt
0.5 g/gal Epsom salt


also could I follow this advice and just use ro water alone or would it be better to mix 25/75 or 50/50?


also, in the future I will be using sunshine mix or pro mix. would i still do everything the same or would I adjust the ph differently?
 

Rukind

Member
Yes. You can increase the Pro-Tekt if you like, which will also increase K.

what about 3ml? would you recommend anymore protekt than that? (this is per gallon by the way) I know the citric acid is liter, i can figure that out.

then just increase sulfuric in veg and phosphoric in full flower to bring the ph back around 6 right? I assume the point in increasing protekt would be too increase phosphoric instead a bloom booster?


also I noticed for the full flowering you recomended adding sulfuric acid at the end to fix ph. On the page before this one, you said to add ctric acid again at the end to correct it and not to use sulfuric acid in full flower (because we will be using phosphoric). I was wondering if that was a typo or it just doesn't realy matter what you use to correct ph at the end.

I can only find 25% sulfuric and was wondering if its safe to buy it from ebay. I can find 98% too.

can you buy phosphoric and sulfuric acid at lowes or home depot? I would rather pick these chemicals up than ship them anyways.
 

spurr

Active member
Veteran
what about 3ml? would you recommend anymore protekt than that? (this is per gallon by the way) I know the citric acid is liter, i can figure that out.

Using 3 mL/gal is fine, so is using 2.5 mL/gal, or 3.5 mL/gal.

then just increase sulfuric in veg and phosphoric in full flower to bring the ph back around 6 right? I assume the point in increasing protekt would be too increase phosphoric instead a bloom booster?
Increasing protekt is good to increase Si, that's the main reason I suggested it, and and the increased K is helpful. But you'd do still very well if not increasing protekt, it's really up to you. And yes, if you used more protekt you'd use more phosphoric acid in full-flowering, which would provide more P in full-flowering.

also I noticed for the full flowering you recomended adding sulfuric acid at the end to fix ph. On the page before this one, you said to add ctric acid again at the end to correct it and not to use sulfuric acid in full flower (because we will be using phosphoric). I was wondering if that was a typo or it just doesn't realy matter what you use to correct ph at the end.
It was a typo, it doesn't matter what you use to lower pH for the final test (if it's needs to be lowered, it may not). I like to use citric acid, but you can use any of the three.

I can only find 25% sulfuric and was wondering if its safe to buy it from ebay. I can find 98% too.
Have you gone to your local auto parts store? And asked for "Qual" battery acid (electrolyte grade sulfuric acid)? Or at least 35% battery acid? If not, try it and they should stock it. Call your local NAPA for Qual (here; most local stores only carry the 6 quart or 5 gallon jugs, which are inexpensive) or AutoParts2020 (6 quart for ~$14), etc, or go to Ace Hardware where you can get 6 quarts for ~$15, or get 1.5 gallon for ~$16 here. It's best to use 35% sulfuric acid, as it's the standard for horticulture and Qual has been well tested and proven effective in academia for horticulture.

Using Qual brand isn't critical, but you should use 35% if you are able.

can you buy phosphoric and sulfuric acid at lowes or home depot? I would rather pick these chemicals up than ship them anyways.
I'm not sure about HomeDepot, but see above for sulfuric acid. You can phosphoric acid (pH down) at any hydro store.
 
Last edited:

spurr

Active member
Veteran
@ all,

If you cannot find 35% sulfuric acid locally and don't want to order it on-line, but you can find > 35% locally, you can do math to find the amount of distilled water to add to the > 35% sulfuric acid to make it 35% (via dilution).

In these examples we can find 38% sulfuric acid locally, so we will remove 100 mL (and 200 mL) of the 38% sulfuric acid. To which we will add X mL of distilled water to make a 35% solution of sulfuric acid:
  • ((38-35)/35)100 = ~8.6% (i.e., 8.571428571%).
    • You must then find 8.6% of the total volume of 38% sulfuric acid you wish to use. E.g., for 100 mL 38% sulfuric acid it's (100*0.086) = 8.6 mL H2O. Or for 200 mL of 38% sulfuric acid it's (200*0.086) = 17.2 mL H2O. Thus, by adding the volume of water (8.5 mL or 17 mL) to the volume of 38% sulfuric acid (100 mL or 200 mL, respectively) we make a 35% sulfuric acid solution with a final volume of 108.6 mL and 217.2 mL, respectively.
 
Last edited:

spurr

Active member
Veteran
edit: I just added more detail to the above equations to make 35% sulfruic acid out of > 35% sulfuric acid.
 

Headbandf1

Bent Member
Veteran
morning Spurr, glad to see your hanging in there. Im enjoying this thread though its start to feel like Homework, keep up the positive work! +1:ying:
 

spurr

Active member
Veteran
Hey buddy,

Sorry about the math. I got a few PMs from people asking how to use X% (purity) sulfuric acid with my formulations. So I thought I should write a quick how-to. The easiest way to use my formulations and methodology is to use my default values, that means zero math but also less accuracy.
 

spurr

Active member
Veteran
I can only find 25% sulfuric and was wondering if its safe to buy it from ebay. I can find 98% too.

If you can only find 98% locally, below is the math to use 350 mL 98% sulfuric acid to make an aqueous solution of 35% sulfuric acid. If you have to order the 98% on-line, then you should simply order the 35% Qual.

  • ((98-35)/35)350 = 630 ; that means you need 630 mL distilled water, to which you add 350 mL 98% sulfuric acid, for a total volume of 980 mL 35% sulfuric acid.

Make SURE to mix the acid INTO the water, not the water to the acid!

:tiphat:
 

heady blunts

prescription blunts
Veteran
always impressive spurr. if i ever switch to ferts i'll be mixing up some of "spurr's old fashioned" :D
 

Rukind

Member
thanks man it looks like im headed in the right direction.

do you think its better just to increase the phosphorus yourself instead of a bloom booster or should I go that route. either way ill have to add more pro tekt to balance it out.

how much phosphorus is too much if using 75% like you recommended?? I see no reason to buy a bloom booster when I have a lot of phosophorus. unless there there is something else that is beneficial in a bloom booster.

also thanks for the qual links. I have a napa in town that carries it. It is in a card board box, though. does that mean its powder or is the liquid in another container inside the cardboard box?

and is it okay to use a plastic syringe to use these chemicals? the rubber stopper wont melt or anything? lol I always use a syringe to measure about my nutrients since I have so many left over from my days of mycology.

here is some phosphoric http://www.ebay.com/itm/PHOSPHORIC-...ultDomain_0&hash=item19c716f5a1#ht_500wt_1054

it says 75% but when you look at the label on the bottle it says 85% so who knows. does it matter as much for phosphorus about percentages compared to sulfuric.

I have GH ph down but it has ctric acid as well as phosphoric. also i think i read potassium amonium or something like that. I havn't been able to find anything with just phosphoric at my hydro store. I think advanced nutrients ph down only has phosphoric but I would have to get it online and im not even sure about that or if its 75%
 

spurr

Active member
Veteran
@ all,

Due to many requests I am going to look into selling my formulations as stock solutions. That way a grower would merely use 10 mL/L from stock A, B and C, as well as I would sell bases and acids needed. I think I will also hack together my own custom fertilizer calculator for acids and bases and alkalinity, to make it very easy to use my complete methodology.

I'm not sure when I will be able to start selling my formulations, sometime in the next month or two I assume. Firstly, I would send out lots of free samples to those who wish to test. Secondly, setting up a web site and making the stock solutions; I can have that done by next month.Thirdly, depending upon how much it costs to be a vender here it may take some time before I can openly sell here at ICmag, if it's expensive to be a vender that is.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I'd like to play a game:

Name the formulations and brand:

Whoever comes up with the best name(s) for products and a brand name, will get much free product in the next month or two! Time to put your thinking caps on :D

My formulations are cannabis specific, but I'd rather not put that on the label or in the name, considering how fuc*ed up the US government is with respect to cannabis.

:bump:
 

spurr

Active member
Veteran
always impressive spurr. if i ever switch to ferts i'll be mixing up some of "spurr's old fashioned" :D

Ha, sounds good to me. However, I haven't left behind biological organics and aquaculture (fish, snails, etc). Once I get my Aerated Deep Flow Technique system built and tested it's on like Donkey Kong! Then to test my surface and subsurface irrigation system via automated watering with tensiometers and custom soilless media (or Berger "BM6"; I will no longer use any peat soilless media unless it comes from Berger).
 
Top