Spurr's groundbreaking fert. mixes and methods (YouTube screen-cast and web site!)

[MillitantHippie]

Thank you very much for putting this info out there.

Have you looked into any of the roots excelerator products.

and in a previous recipe you recommended fulvic. is that also the case with this formula

 

[YosemiteSam]

For what it is worth...with water in the 50-60 ppm alkalinity somewhere around 15% NH4 will maintain media pH right around 6. I have not been higher than that but I do know that using Yara Liva CaNO3 for my entire source of N my media pH will slowly rise.

Not a big fan of RO water (cause you waste so much). But one can match their nutes to their water...or acidify their water to drop alkalinity, or a combo of the two until they are able to maintain media pH right around 6. When they do this all kinds of good things happen.

The question I am still dealing with is how do you get from the natural pH of the media you have chosen to where you want to be. Do you pre condition or do you just use less NH4 until the pH rises to where you want it. My media is Black Gold coco and it starts in the 5-5.5 range.

I guess I could add a hair of limestone but that seems like a pain in the ass.

Also be aware the media pH is heavily influenced by the amount of water in the media. Right after watering you might measure pH at say 5.5...then when it dries out to the point of watering again it might be up to 6.5.

These be the things I be thinking about these days.

edit...spurrr, do you not think it is easier to merely acidify your existing water to achieve the right alkalinity? RO is such a waste.

 

[spurr]

Can you link to a good scale? I know you linked it somewhere else, but I am having trouble finding it.

This is a bit of a confusing issue, the Cliff Notes would be the better scales have lower repeatability, i.e., deviation as "+/- d", aka "+/- mg". Scale internals not withstanding. Please see this thread at Drugs-Forum for much info on this topic.

Truly good mg scales are at least ~$300, like Tanita brand, model 1230, here at Amazon for $275. And great scales like Sartorius, Mettler-Toledo and Ohaus brands, are well into hundreds and thousands of dollars.

• For a 1 mg scale (i.e., 0.001 g) and deviation of +/- 1 d (aka +/- 1 mg), we need to use at least 10 mg (i.e., 0.01 gram) worth of fertilizer compound to keep the margin of error within +/- 20% with 95% certainty.

• For a 1 mg scale (i.e., 0.001 g) and deviation of +/- 3 d (aka +/- 1 mg), we need to use at least 30 mg (i.e., 0.03 gram) worth of fertilizer compound to keep the margin of error within +/- 20% with 95% certainty.

Thankfully with my formulations we use at least 11 mg (0.011 g) of compound for the direct addition to 100 liter. Thus, if we use a 0.001 gram scale with +/- 1 d we will get sufficiently accurate results without spending even over a $100 for the scale !

The issue of deviation can be explained this way:

• For a scale with +/- 1 d, when weighing 10 mg (0.010 g) of substance, the scale may show between 9 and 11 mg (0.009 g to 0.011 g). For our use that is pretty accurate and is sufficient.

• For a scale with +/- 3 d, when weighing 10 mg (0.010 g) of substance, the scale may show between 7 and 13 mg (0.007 g to 0.013 g).

Thus, with all those issues taken into account, I would suggest the least expensive 1 mg scale with +/- 1 d I have found. The US-JEWELRY-PRO (20g x 0.001g), which can be found on Amazon (here) for ~$90. And here is the user manual in PDF format.

Otherwise, the American Weigh GPR-20 Gemini-PRO Digital Milligram Scale (20 g by 0.001 g) is the next best option, it's $55 at Amazon (here). However, its deviation is +/- 3 d, which IMO is too high because that means weighing a 10 mg substance can show from 7 to 13 mg. And here is the user manual in PDF format.

Also, using a 10 mg calibration weight is better than using a 10 g calibration weight. A good calibration kit with 10 mg weight can be found at Amazon for ~$13 here. Also, you may wish to get small spoons from Amazon (here) for ~$5.


Carrying out measurements:

1. Place the scale on a level surface. Make sure there is no air movement, ex., no fans, no A/C, etc., blowing on the scale. And make sure there is no vibration like kids running around or pets running around or blenders running, etc. If there is air movement then make sure to use the "draft shield", the clear plastic cover. It's good practice to always use the draft shield.

2. Power on the scale and allow it warm up for ~15 minutes. Do not turn it off at any point after it's turned on, until you're done weighing all compounds.

3. Cut out a little piece of heavy duty tin foil to act as a weighing dish, small enough to fit on the scale's weighing pan. That tin foil is used to hold the fertilizer compound. Use a new, clean piece of tin foil for each compound.

4. Place the tin foil weighing dish onto the scale.

5. Tare out the scale, so it reads 0.000 g.

6. Watch the scale reading to see if there is "drift". That is, if the weight goes from 0.000 g to 0.001 g or 0.002 g, and/or back down to 0.001 g or 0.000 g. If you see such drift that means there is too much vibration or draft. The goal is zero drift. You may need to use the draft shield (to reduce draft) or mouse pad/etc. (to reduce vibration).

7. Place the 10 mg (or 10 g) calibration weight on the scale and calibrate the scale.

8. Remove the calibration weight and tin foil weighing dish from the scale, leave the weighing pan attached to the scale.

9. Place some fertilizer compound on the tin foil weighing dish, and then place the tin foil weighing dish onto the scale's weighing pan. DO NOT add the compounds to the scale directly, because that can affect the measurement.

10. Once the scale shows the weight, remove or add more compound to the tin foil weighing dish as needed. However, it's best to first remove the tin foil weighing dish from the scale, then add or remove compound and place the tin foil weighing dish back onto the scale. Removing the weighing dish prob. isn't necessary, but it's good to do.

11. It's best to weigh the compound > 5 times, then average all weights to find a more accurate weight. That help normalize the deviation factor for greater accuracy. This step isn't needed but it's helpful.

12. Add compound to water.

13. Done.

 

[spurr]

Won't let me edit my above post, but

Do you use the potassium silicate both in prepping the water and then once again in the actual formula? or am I missing something?

Nope. Only in the prep stage before adding acids.

 

[spurr]

Thank you very much for putting this info out there.

Have you looked into any of the roots excelerator products.

Only a little, IIRC it has ammonium and other elements, correct? I am not a big fan of that compnay becaue they are not open and up front about what their products, like Roots Excelerator, contain.

and in a previous recipe you recommended fulvic. is that also the case with this formula

Yes. I like FulPower from BioAg. You can get it here from BioAg or here from Horticulture Source. You can also find it at many other on-line hydro shops, but I think Horticulture Source is the cheapest. Depending upon where you live (if in the US) the fulvic acid product may be labeled as 'humic acid', even though it's fulvic acid.

FulPower is by far the best. FA isn't needed but it's certainly helpful. You can get a quart for ~$13-15.

If using FulPower I wouldn't suggest their application rate (to save money, otherwise use their application rate). I use 2.5 to 5 mL per liter. The suggested application rate is 2.6 to 8 mL per liter. See the product brochure PDF here.

 

[spurr]

Hey YS,

I'm glad to see you, that drama with Blockhead is water under the bridge as far as I am concerned. Sorry the way things went down between us.

For what it is worth...with water in the 50-60 ppm alkalinity somewhere around 15% NH4 will maintain media pH right around 6. I have not been higher than that but I do know that using Yara Liva CaNO3 for my entire source of N my media pH will slowly rise.

Good to know, thanks. I assume the pH rise from CacliNit is due to the higher NO3:NH4 ratio. And that is the ideal range for alkalinity. When you write 15% NH4, do you mean 15% of the total N?

Not a big fan of RO water (cause you waste so much). But one can match their nutes to their water...or acidify their water to drop alkalinity, or a combo of the two until they are able to maintain media pH right around 6. When they do this all kinds of good things happen.

Yup. I shoot for a pH of 6 in water culture and soilless.

The question I am still dealing with is how do you get from the natural pH of the media you have chosen to where you want to be. Do you pre condition or do you just use less NH4 until the pH rises to where you want it. My media is Black Gold coco and it starts in the 5-5.5 range.

I like to think of it in terms of pH of soilless solution and rhizsosphere, not actual media pH, per se. That is, we are not trying to change the pH of the media itself.

And yes, to increase pH in media with plants growing use a higher NO3:NH4 ratio and/or higher alkalinity and/or less K and/or more potassium silicate.

To increase media pH before plants are growing, without adding limes*, I would moisten the coco with water that has alkalinity ~80-100 ppm. You can add potassium carbonate or calcium carbonate to increase alkalinity of water.

* Calcium carbonate and dolomitic lime have the fastest reaction in terms of pH.
​

I guess I could add a hair of limestone but that seems like a pain in the ass.

It is, and the end result is the exact same wrt affecting pH via water instead of by adding lime. The lime simply increases alkalinity and pH of the soilless soltion, not the media itself. I prefer to adjust pH of soilless media, such as coco, via NO3:NH4 ratio, alkalinity, K ppm (which has the same effect on root exudates as NH4).

To test pH and EC of soilless solution I highly suggest using NCSU PourThru method. Or use a few "suction lysimeters" to directly extract soilless solution samples.

Also be aware the media pH is heavily influenced by the amount of water in the media. Right after watering you might measure pH at say 5.5...then when it dries out to the point of watering again it might be up to 6.5.

Yup, that is why using the NCSU PourThru method is critical, if not using a few suction lysimeters. I for one use both methods for larger data sets.

These be the things I be thinking about these days.

edit...spurrr, do you not think it is easier to merely acidify your existing water to achieve the right alkalinity? RO is such a waste.

I do, if a grower has 'clean' water with sufficient alkalinity. However, most growers do not have such water, those that use tap, well, etc. RO water is great to remove chlorine, chloramines, fluoride, hardness, sodium, drug contamination found in the water supply like birth control, anti-psychotics, etc. That is the only reason I prefer using RO water.

I used RO water with my methodology because it allows me to assume nearly the same starting water quality for all growers. That allowed me to make a methodology that is one-size-fits-all.

FWIW,
Most RO filters do not remove all chlorine, and especially they have trouble with chloramines. So I test RO water with a cheap Cl test kit from a pet store (which also shows chloramines). If there is any yellow at all, I add enough ascorbic acid (vit C.) to neutralize the remaining Cl and/or chloramines.

 

[spurr]

@ All soilless growers and soil growers:


It's CRITICAL to bring the coco or s.peat or soil to near field capacity BEFORE filling your containers. It's critical to not fill containers and then moisten the media. Wrt air porosity and total porosity. Please see these following YouTube videos with Berger peat moss founder and the head of NCSU Floraculture Dept. for visual examples and explanations by the head of NCSU Floraculture Dept. on why this is SO important:


Berger Peat Moss Ltd. - 1/2 - Getting the most out of your mix

[youtubeif]2SR0nf8mRws[/youtubeif]

Berger Peat Moss Ltd. - 2/2 - Getting the most out of your mix

[youtubeif]wVP0BC5UKoE[/youtubeif]

Berger Peat Moss Ltd. - Creating the ideal root environment

[youtubeif]vjGJILfeU18[/youtubeif]

 

[spurr]

Do you use the potassium silicate both in prepping the water and then once again in the actual formula? or am I missing something?

I cannot speak for him, but i think he means he only uses before adding the nutrients.

something like this:

make RO water
put 95% of total water volume into reservoir
add 0.01 g/L citric acid
add enough K2CO3 (potassium carbonate) to bring pH to 6.0
add pro-tekt (2.5ml) (potassium sillicate)
add sulfuric acid (or phosphoric during full flower) to bring pH to 6.0
add nutrients (like his gh formula or his custom do it yourself)
check pH and add more sulfuric acid (or phosphoric for full flower) if needed to bring pH to 6.0.
add remaining %5 of ro wter

I think the idea of using 95% water at first is because some of these chemicals need to be mixed in a small amount of water first. Like potassium carbonate? also i think espom salt.

Please correct me if I am wrong spurr.

The steps you posted above are for folks that wish to use my GH formulation without using my full alkalinity methodology wrt Bru'n Water and UNH AlkCalc.

The reason to not start with 100% of the total water volume when mixing in stock solutions or raw fertilizer compounds into reservoir water (i.e., "working solution") has to due with chemistry. In simple terms, by not using 100% of the total water volume at first, we allow the salts (ions) to fully 'mix' into the water. By adding the last 5% volume of water AFTER we add all compounds we allow for complete 'mixing' of ions and thus accurate ppm profile. Otherwise, if we used 100% of the total volume to being with, the salts/ions will not fully 'mix' into the water and that's bad.

Ideally we would start with 80% of the total water volume, then after adding all compounds we would add the remaining 20% water volume. However, with my methodology wrt alkalinity (bases and acids), it's best to start with 95% of total water volume and then add the renaming 5% at the very end. It's important to not use more than 95% of the total water volume to being with.

Also, for potassium carbonate and citric acid, it's beneficial to first mix each into their own small volume of water, to pre-dissolve them. Then add the aqueous solution with potassium carbonate to the reservoir, then add potassium silicate, then add the aqueous solution with citric acid. Then proceed from there.

 

[DonkDBZ]

Any pics of plants grown with this method yet?

I am pretty sure roots excel is just iba and naa.

 

[spurr]

Nope. I will be using this method starting in about two weeks.

 

[cyber echo]

Considered using Triacontanol in the bloom mixes ? (good sources are Alfalfa, beeswax, sugar cane)
Im still trying to figure out the most economic way of manually preparing and using it...(i think it might be more economic through foliar rather than in bloom mixes or as a standalone rez amendment)

 

[psg1]

Thank you sincerely, spurr. This is the kind of stuff I immediately save to file in case the whole internet kicks the bucket some day.

Question: Perhaps you've discussed this already, but how did you go about determining the optimal total ppm profile? Obviously, so many people feel that more is better when it comes to nutes, at least until they end up in the infirmary forum. Is this simply the highest nutrient efficiency profile (such that a stronger formula would produce higher yields, albeit with lower efficiency), or is this where yields top out entirely?

Thanks, buddy.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Yes...15% of the total N.

I did not know that about K+. So just to make sure I understand are you saying the more K one uses the more pH in the root zone goes down? I am currently starting plants with a 3:2 N:k and then merely increasing K as I get into flower...and not seeing any drop in pH...maybe something else is at work.

Also I quit using KSil in the fertigation water. My observation...with zero science behind it...is that SiO3 is a strong pH up buffer and a major pain in my ass with no noticeable benefit. I am now using it as a foliar at 2 grams agsil per liter...where is very effective as a fungal preventer.

 

[spurr]

Considered using Triacontanol in the bloom mixes ? (good sources are Alfalfa, beeswax, sugar cane)
Im still trying to figure out the most economic way of manually preparing and using it...(i think it might be more economic through foliar rather than in bloom mixes or as a standalone rez amendment)

Possibly. However, I prefer to sell PGRs (e.g., MeJA, TRIA, 24-epibrassinloide, IBA, NAA, etc.) as stand-along products. Because not everyone would benefit from them, or wish to use them. The only source you should use if making your own TRIA aqueous solution is 98% TRIA (or 96% if you must), from chem supply companies. However, that's not an easy task for most people, re forcing TRIA to be miscible in water.

Instead, you can get ready-to-use (i.e., ready to dilute into water) TRIA from "Nutri-Tech Solutions" (from Australia), called "Triacontanol" (here).

I won't suggest you use any TRIA product from any US based company (even it they are merely drop-ship), e.g., ROCK brand TRIA product (IIRC, it's called "Resinator") or the Yellow Bottle brand TRIA product. The reason is, none of them are smart and honest enough to list the quantity of TRIA, either by w/v or v/v, that is, except for the TRIA product from NutriTrech.

The easiest way to go is to order a jug of TRIA solution from NutriTech, which to the US costs (with shipping) ~$100. But that's enough to last years considering we would not use more than ~1 ppm, and 0.1-0.5 ppm is 'safer'.

Application of TRIA, at least in academia, is most often via foliar spray, not application to rhizosphere. I have written A LOT about TRIA and how to use it in my PGR thread, and I have been using TRIA for a long time (testing it at various ppm, etc.). Also, DizzleKush is testing the NutriTech TRIA as I type this, after I helped him with the math to calculate ppm. And he's sending me some so I may also test their product. Contact DizzleKush for more info or check out his thread in the science sub-forum, which is where my PGR thread(s) are located too.

 

[DonkDBZ]

Nope. I will be using this method starting in about two weeks.

My test plant did not like. I used the water (citric, protect, sulfer, potassium carbonate) with floranova veg for 2 days. Bad idea forgot that they put citric acid in there. Test girl looked all confused after 2 days. Should of let the mix sit a few hours then check ph instead of right away feed.


Will be using the real veg mix by friday.

 

[YosemiteSam]

One other minor point/question. Do you have a link to the NCSU PourThru method? Is it the same as in Bill Argo's book about pH control in containers?

Also it is not practical for big pot grows. If you were to fertigate to runoff in truly big pots you will drown the roots. For that reason I use a modified version of the SME method.

I am starting to use run charts for root zone pH, moisture content and EC. Eventually the goal is to collect enough data to be able to determine sigma and ideal mean...then I can use them as control charts. Once that happens true six sigma methods can be applied to squeeze the distribution curve and refine the ideal mean.

That is what I am about lately.

 

[spurr]

Thank you sincerely, spurr. This is the kind of stuff I immediately save to file in case the whole internet kicks the bucket some day.

Question: Perhaps you've discussed this already, but how did you go about determining the optimal total ppm profile? Obviously, so many people feel that more is better when it comes to nutes, at least until they end up in the infirmary forum. Is this simply the highest nutrient efficiency profile (such that a stronger formula would produce higher yields, albeit with lower efficiency), or is this where yields top out entirely?

Thanks, buddy.

The idea of "more is better" is very flawed (see graphics below). The goal is to produce ppm in the sufficient rage, too high ppm(s) is worse than too low ppm(s). The ppm I chose for elements come from well proven values in academia and cannabis horticulture (I have been testing very similar ppm profile to my current formations for some time). I didn't pick ppm values out of a hat, I have been researching these issues for years.

PPM of nutrient solution wrt effect on plant (re yield curve):

​

​

PPM (and %) of elements in plant tissue wrt PPM of nutrient solution (re yield curve):

​

AFAIK my formations are the only truly unique formulations based on real and current science, and made specially for cannabis drug-biotypes. AFAIK all other commercial retail brands are often simply re-branded products from the AG world. And most brands just copy what GH has been doing for ages, e.g., AN and some guy called Garden Of Dreams at THC-farm.

Very few (if any) fertilizer companies that focus on the cannabis world understand the issues I have written about in this thread, and none will be as honest I am. I am telling people every single thing possible about my methodology and formulations, and all my reasons for the choices I made. Ex., some guy called "Garden Of Dreams" at THC-farm is starting a new fertilizer company and claiming all kinds of bullshit and using all kinds of hyperbole, and will not list the full ingredients and the full ppm profile. He admits that ALL he is doing is copying the products from other companies, what a joke! And Garden Of Dreams isn't even making the products himself, he is simply re-branding AG products he is having made for him. He understands about zero of what I've written in this thread, according to what he wrote in his thread at THC-farm.

Those kinds of companies and people, such as Garden Of Dreams, AN, Yellow Bottle, Dutch Master, et al., are so disingenuous and shady it scares me. I won't use ANY of their products until they are honest about ingredients and what not.

Oh yea, when I start selling my formations I will not be charging as much as any of those con artists. I will charge a fair price so neither I nor the customer gets ripped off. I'm in the for the passion more so than the money ...

 

[spurr]

One other minor point/question. Do you have a link to the NCSU PourThru method? Is it the same as in Bill Argo's book about pH control in containers?

Yes, here you go (therein you will many docs for tacking EC and pH, etc., as well as much info in PDF format):

• http://www.pourthruinfo.com/

This guide (pictorial) from NCSU is my favorite:

• http://www.ncsu.edu/project/hortsublab/pourthru/M_M.htm

And here is a good web page from Smart! Fertilizer software company wrt using SME, NCSU PourThru and 2:1:

• http://www.smart-fertilizer.com/articles/plug-plants-nutrition

And here is the equality (comparison) chart for SME vs 2:1 vs 5:1 vs NCSU PourThru, i.e., 1 EC from SME does not equal 1 EC from NCSU PourThru:

Also it is not practical for big pot grows. If you were to fertigate to runoff in truly big pots you will drown the roots. For that reason I use a modified version of the SME method.

You always should fetigate to at least 10% runoff, but 15% is better, i.e., 15% of the total input water volume per container. That's very important wrt keeping EC and pH in the goal range. Also, if you add 2x the volume of water needed to properly fetigate the media to 15% runoff you increase ppm by ~2x, which is bad. Only add enough water to allow for 10-15% runoff wrt total volume of input water.

The best way to fertigate media (e.g., coco or peat), if doing so by hand, if to use the "pulse" watering method. That way you don't 'drown' the roots and remove all oxygen, and the return of oxygen into media is MUCH faster and more efficient vs "drench" watering method. Also, if you use the drench watering method to compact the media over time, which is very bad.

What do you mean by "modified" SME? I ask because it's important to use correct and proven methodology to get accurate results wrt the image I posted above. I really dislike SME, 2:1 and 5:1 because they all require damaging the root environment to remove some media. The probem with those invasois method is to get a true reading of the pH and EC at root rhizopshere and root environment you need to remove media from at least ~4 inches depth into media.

If you're testing media sans plant, then sure, SME or 2:1 or 5:1 is fine, but for media with roots I will only use NCSU PourThru and "sunction lysimeters". I use SSAT from Irrometer; the same brand for my tensiometers*. The suction lysimeter is used to extract samples soilless solution and rhziosphere without damaging the root environment, and without needing to add distilled water to media for ONLY 50 mL effluent (more or less will affect the pH and EC readings).

* I will setup my teniometers (one at 4-6" and the other at 10-12" depth) to automatically control electric water values to auto-ferigate/auto-irrigate media by water tension.

I will use surface and subsurface drip lines for the best irrigation method, as well as I will employ the Mazzei "AirJection" system to add 12% air by volume to water, aka "air-water slurry", which greatly increases oxygen at the root zone. I will use a "bypass assembly" with two PSI gauges on either side, to insure the outlet PSI of the Mazzei venturi is half of the inlet PSI (ie., 30 PSI at the inlet and 15 PSI at the outlet). Using such as setup is the best way to water containers (e.g., vs volumetric method, etc.).

Using such a setup a soilless grower no longer has to guess when to water, and using such as method is by far the gold standard. The results should provide for better plant growth, yield, health, et al. Using such a method is so much better than hand watering, it's like night and day.
​

I am starting to use run charts for root zone pH, moisture content and EC. Eventually the goal is to collect enough data to be able to determine sigma and ideal mean...then I can use them as control charts. Once that happens true six sigma methods can be applied to squeeze the distribution curve and refine the ideal mean.

That is what I am about lately.

Sounds good. Hydrobuddy has nice feature to track pH and EC. How to you quantify "moister content"? I ask because the best way is to qualify by water tension, ie., use the same tensiometers I use (see image below), the "LT" model (that's a PDF) from Irrometer. There are two other valid method to qualify and quantify when to water, but they are not as ideal as using water tension (re how 'easily' roots can use water, because not all water can be used by roots).

Also, the total bullshit method of 'sticking a finger' into media to 'know' when to water (as suggested by so-called cannabis gurus) is such a fail it's deserves this:

 

[spurr]

@ All,

Here is a good graphic showing the effect of plant available P (i.e, "orthophosphate") on pH. I wrote earlier how to convert mM (milliMoles) into ppm, and converting M (Moles) into ppm is just as easy:

 

[spurr]

My test plant did not like. I used the water (citric, protect, sulfer, potassium carbonate) with floranova veg for 2 days. Bad idea forgot that they put citric acid in there. Test girl looked all confused after 2 days. Should of let the mix sit a few hours then check ph instead of right away feed.


Will be using the real veg mix by friday.

Great, let us know what you think. As I wrote before, the main issue of my formulations that I think may use some tweaking is the NO3:NH4 ratio, depending on room temp, RH, and light intensity. A higher NO3:NH4 ratio is better for hot, dry and very well light rooms. Ex., NO3:NH4 ratio of > 8.