Diagnose this? I'll make it worth your while.

[silver hawaiian]

Hmm. I notice that they appear a bit claw-y, but I only know enough to know that it mean's somethin'. Not to know what it means. But they definitely look N starved to me. (Just starved in general..)

 

[silver hawaiian]

Lockout due to some pH issues? I had some similar (though not so uniform) symptoms on a finicky Blue Dragon, from some pH swings, .. At this point, I'm just stabbing at it.

 

[grapeman]

PH

 

[silver hawaiian]

Weird. When I look at the containers & the root masses, I feel like it's almost a situation where nutes have been locked out because of pile-up of old runoff (that never ran off), .. And who knows what that's doing to the pH of the whole deal..

Edit: In part because of lousy drainage on the containers themselves..

 

[Stress_test]

Weird. When I look at the containers & the root masses, I feel like it's almost a situation where nutes have been locked out because of pile-up of old runoff (that never ran off), .. And who knows what that's doing to the pH of the whole deal..

Edit: In part because of lousy drainage on the containers themselves..

You are partially right.
The pots and drainage did have a lot to do with the problem as a whole.

Ph was of course out of whack, and all were suffering from deficiencies, but lock-out is a symptom.

The overall color of the plants is the biggest tattle-tail though.
And a blown up view of the root ball.

What is the cause?

 

[Hammerhead]

root bound/rot bad pH under watered nutrient lock out N deficient.

 

[Buddy Guy]

Were they sitting on a cold floor??

 

[paladin420]

Systemic problem with the "growers" To many problems cascading from single simple error ( PH,mag lockout, low N, etc) I would be very stern with anyone who did that to my precious baby gurls. Yours were freakin lovely! Then to see this oi vay!!
I see no mention of light? Nice close nodes,but?

 

[paladin420]

As a note on this thread: I dialed in years ago for my size and needs,so I rarely saw problems. Now back to helpin ppl startup, playin with new stuff( nutes lites larger grows)Now lots of problems.Mostly with ppl ( guy put co2 in a tent!!!)This is so helpful and a challenge. can't wait for the reveal!!

 

[Stress_test]

Were they sitting on a cold floor??

Yes they were. And somebody roll Buddy Guy a joint cause he nailed it.

The overall color is the dead give-away.

There were several mistakes made with these plants, starting with the drainage of the pots.

These gals were beautiful clones and had a lot of potential when delivered, but were placed in a room without heat.
The 2 1000 watt lights should have generated enough heat to suffice. Unfortunately the patients were drawing freezing air from outside and didn't have any sort of temperature control for the exhaust fan. The lights were on an 20 on - 4 off schedule; exhausting for 20 and sitting in an unheated room for 4 hours.

The pots couldn't drain the last inch against the floor, so it froze. (You can see the frost across the bottom of the root ball starting to melt at the bottom of the pictures.)

All the root balls were below 40F when they came back.

These 10 plants were closest to the fresh air intake. As the air moved across the room it was heated by the lights when they were on, so the other plants in the room weren't effected as severely as these.

Obviously I couldn't show pictures of the patients garden, which would have helped diagnose these plants. But the even over-all color of the plants in this case is the indicator. Deficiencies seldom, if ever, effect the entire plant from top to bottom.
Another dead give-away is the the dark purple stems. A couple deficiencies will also cause purple stems, but the dark, almost black, color combined with the even yellowing hue screams "cold"...

The solution: Remove all plants from their pots and allow to warm and dry.
I plugged in a 1000 watt Mh about 6' above to burn (air-prune) all the outside, exposed roots. They remained unpotted for 12 hours until the inside of the root balls was up to 60F and almost dry.

The pots were all slotted with a cordless skill-saw to allow proper drainage and they were re-potted. Then given a 2 gallon flush with the nutrient recipe I posted in the first post.

Systemic problem with the "growers" To many problems cascading from single simple error ( PH,mag lockout, low N, etc) I would be very stern with anyone who did that to my precious baby gurls. Yours were freakin lovely! Then to see this oi vay!!
I see no mention of light? Nice close nodes,but?

As a note on this thread: I dialed in years ago for my size and needs,so I rarely saw problems. Now back to helpin ppl startup, playin with new stuff( nutes lites larger grows)Now lots of problems.Mostly with ppl ( guy put co2 in a tent!!!)This is so helpful and a challenge. can't wait for the reveal!!

The 2 - 1000 watters would have been plenty of light. And you're right that it cascaded from simple errors.

The room should have been sealed and CO2 hooked up or at least a propane lantern lit, and the pots fixed to allow proper drainage.

The last 1" retained water, which without the mass and volume to retain heat, froze against the cold floor. Compound that with cold air being blown across the vegetation, they didn't stand a chance.

Once the root zone was too cold to function, the plants started shutting down and began using mobile nutrients to sustain themselves.

The most frustrating part was that I had diagnosed these plants a month before they got this bad. My diagnoses at the time was "lock-out due to cold". Had the patients followed my recommendations at the time these plants would be beautiful and in full flower right now.
These plants were a custom order and were held in my veg room weeks longer than usual, I think I sold them for $35 each.
So the $350 wasted on them would have been well worth the investment of a 2 mantel propane lantern to heat the room and supply it with CO2. The worst pisser is that when I diagnosed the problem a month ago, I also delivered a 2 mantel propane lantern and 10 gallon bottle of propane. It was never hooked up and the intake/exhaust vents was never closed.

 

[HighDesertJoe]

Good EYE BUDdy

 

[Buddy Guy]

Beautiful! Just knew it had to be environmental since you stated they were using your time tested recipes. I've seen dark stems on outdoor plants nearing their death during the cold months. So I put 2 and 2 together to find my own conclusion. Plus, that little hint about overall color cemented my opinion.

Cheers!

Buddy

 

[Stress_test]

It does almost break my heart sometimes when I deliver beautiful clones and then see em in this condition.

That Cheese should have produced between 2 and 3 ounces when finished and my Hybrids should have done better than that indoors.

But they bought the clones from me so of course they call me and typically want to blame any problems on the strain or the clone. So it get frustrating sometimes when people refuse to believe a problem that looks as bad as these plants, could possibly be remedied as simply as adding a heat source that also supplies CO2 and sealing the room...

Okay while I am setting up the next situation, if anybody else wants to throw in then get-er-done, or PM me and I'll help you outline the problem/diagnosis if you want.

 

[Hammerhead]

Very good eye I did not see any frozen root balls. The pics needed to be in natural light. Looks like hps was on. I have seen that color with plants that did not receive enough light.

 

[paladin420]

Missed the frost. Honestly never thought to look. It is a testement to your babies vitality that they r even alive IMMHO.
Question? Would the lantern light effect flower cycle.

 

[Stress_test]

Very good eye I did not see any frozen root balls. The pics needed to be in natural light. Looks like hps was on. I have seen that color with plants that did not receive enough light.

The pics were taken under Mh and CFL's, so there was some discoloration but it was as good as I could get indoors.

The root ball does show a very defined line where the frost began melting away toward the bottom of the ball.

The brown, dead roots weren't as obvious until the frost melted, but is very visible in the group shots of the root balls.

 

[Hammerhead]

and out of focus Thats why I said root rot/bound but I still cant see any frost damage there? I do see dead roots.

 

[Lazyman]

20-20-20 is a lousy NPK ratio for vegging, I prefer something like 10-5-5. The reason you're getting nute burn and the plants are super light green is they are taking up too much P and K in veg, so you cant dd any more N without burning them worse. Since you presumably mixed the pellets into the medium you can't do much except change the medium out and start over. Find something with more N than PK and start using that instead. A good flush will help with the lockout, but measure your runof for ph and EC before you go any further.

 

[Lazyman]

Sorry, hadn't read the whole thread, but to address the frozen rootballs, put the plants/saucers onto a sheet of styrofoam (sold at home depot, get a couple inches thick) and put a heater on a timer to run when the lights are off.

 

[silver hawaiian]

Are we ready for round 3?! What's next?