12 weeks PUBLIC consultation on UK drug sentencing - have your say

[McSnappler]

Interestingly, a few days after the R v Auton Court of Appeal ruling edgey posted about came to light on here, the Sentencing Council have announced a public consultation on drug sentencing. No doubt the rulings we've discussed in edgey's thread will play a major part in the guidelines laid down. They're allowing feedback not only from law makers and briefs, but from the general public at large too - THIS MEANS YOU!

The PDF is linked to from the page linked below, and contains everything they propose, including sentencing guidelines and proposed mitigating/aggravating factors.

w w w.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/sentencing/consultations-current.htm


Once you've had a look at that, you can then feel informed enough to take the public questionnaire which is linked to from the pages above.


Now, I don't REALLY know what I'm talking about, I'm just a stoner on a forum. I don't suggest you take what I say on face value, but a few quotes below which I've taken from the PDF might give you a pointer of some things to look out for when you read it yourself. I've also only picked out a few things relating to cultivation - there are specifics in the document for charges of possession, allowing premises to be used, importation, etc

Very large = 100kg to 400kg
Large = 25kg to 99.99kg
Medium = 1kg to 24.99kg
Small = 100g to 999.9g
Very small = up to 99.9g

Interesting they have the break between small and medium right where the R v Auton cases were, above 1kg. In addition to these new suggested guideline amounts, there are specifics about plant numbers..

To judge the difference between "significant" and "industrial" scale ops you'd imagine they would then refer to the table of quantities above, with some kind of (plant number x 40g) equation.

Also relevant is the definition of Subordinate, particularly the part below.

Subordinate

• If own operation, absence of any financial gain, for example joint purchase for no profit, or sharing minimal quantity between peers on non-commercial basis, such as a reefer

This means any personal only grower is always going to be considered to be in a "subordinate role", with the sliding scale of quantity then coming into play. This would make a custodial sentence highly unlikely until the 15+ plants range, and even then, with some mitigation and an early guilty plea, the sentence could be reduced to a community order. Unless an exceptionally serious case, the most you would ever likely be sentenced to for a personal grow is 51 weeks.

Isolated incident

Serious medical conditions requiring urgent, intensive or long-term treatment

Sole or primary carer for dependent relatives

The proposal discusses the current problem in the UK of uk.gov's ridiculous position on medical weed. Well worth reading if you grow for medical reasons.

Use of premises accompanied by unlawful access to electricity/other utility supply of others

Ongoing/large scale operation as evidenced by presence and nature of specialist equipment

Nature of any likely supply

Level of any profit element

Presence of others, especially children and/or non-users

Relevant Press Release text below..

28 March 2011
Sentencing for drug offences: consultation launched on changes to judges’ guidelines

The Sentencing Council launched a 12 week consultation proposing changes to the guidelines that judges and magistrates use to sentence people for drug offences.

Although sentencers have been assisted by judgments of the Court of Appeal (Criminal Division), and there are guidelines in relation to some offences being sentenced in the magistrates’ court, there is no statutory guideline that covers drugs offences in the Crown Court. Following work from the Sentencing Advisory Panel, the new guideline will cover offences in both the Crown and magistrates courts and will therefore encourage a consistency in approach to sentencing drugs offenders.

The draft guideline covers the most commonly sentenced drugs offences including importation, production, supply, permitting premises to be used for drugs offences and possession. For the first time in the Crown Court, it will mean that sentences are based on the court’s assessment of the offender’s role in the offence and the quantity of drugs involved or scale of the operation.

<paragraphs removed>

Chairman of the Sentencing Council, Lord Justice Leveson, said:
“We want to ensure that those who are responsible for the most serious drug crime receive the longest sentences and that punishments overall are in proportion to the offender’s role and the amount of drugs involved."

“This is a public consultation: we want to encourage any member of the public to share their views with us.”

 

[McSnappler]

Here is the information about the proposed guidelines for possession.

Category 1 - Possession of any quantity of drug in prison
Category 2 - 25g to 50g
Category 3 - 10g to 24.9g
Category 4 – up to 9.9g

 

[VerdantGreen]

cool, thanks snap.

polite request to the mods, if there is a problem with the live links then please edit them rather than deleting the thread.

thanks

VG

 

[McSnappler]

Good point VG, edited first post.

 

[r1rider]

Nice one for posting snap, and thanks also to VG for trying to keep the thread going by asking mods to edit rarther than delete threads if an infraction occours.

I cant find myself agreeing with any of those proposed guidlines, i find it absurd that canna is not freely used and is prohibited mercilessly and unfairly by nearly every gov around the world, and they have the cheek to call us paranoid ffs.

r1

 

[McSnappler]

More interesting stuff, completely missed these paragraphs earlier.

Commercial grower
This is an offender who is involved in growing a significant number of cannabis plants in order to sell the drug for profit. It requires financial investment in specialist equipment such as water systems (hydroponics) and intensive lighting. Under the draft guideline, an offender who buys the specialist equipment and uses a warehouse to grow a hundred plants would be regarded as a leading role with a large quantity. The starting point for this offender is five years’ custody and the range is four to six years’ custody.

Gardener
These offenders are employed by the owners or organisers of the production to look after the plants whilst they are growing. They will be physically present with the plants and act under direction from others higher up the chain. They will generally be responsible for watering the plants and ensuring that the specialist lighting equipment is kept on for the lengthy periods needed. They will be paid a small fee or given a benefit in kind (for example free accommodation) for carrying out their role. Under the draft guideline, an offender who acts as a gardener in an operation that produces a hundred plants would be regarded as a subordinate role with a large quantity. The starting point is one year’s custody and the range is a high level community order to two years’ custody.

Producing for own use
This is an offender who grows three or four cannabis plants for his/her own use. They do not sell or give the cannabis to anyone else. Under the draft guideline, an offender who grows four cannabis plants (Class B) for his/her own use will be regarded as a subordinate role with a very small quantity. The starting point for this offender is a Band C fine and the range is a discharge to a low level community order.

 

[Aardwolf]

This is a good thread for the uk forum section better than most + rep McSnappler

 

[McSnappler]

The relevant portion for those of us who use weed out of medical necessity.

For possession offences (especially those involving cannabis), the claim is often made that the drug was used to help with a medical condition. The Council considered whether this should be included as a mitigating factor for possession offences, but has identified two issues with this. Firstly, the evidence as to whether cannabis relieves medical conditions is mixed. Secondly, including this as a factor would mean that concrete medical evidence would be required to be presented at court, which could result in delays to the criminal justice system if proceedings had to be adjourned in order for the medical evidence to be obtained. The Council would be keen to hear your views on this.

It's one of the direct questions the Sentencing Council are asking..

Q7. Should ‘medical evidence that a drug is used to help with a medical condition’ be included as a mitigating factor for possession offences?

Anyone who has taken more than ten minutes to read a few peer reviewed studies knows the answer to this one..

 

[Scrogerman]

As we can see they have twisted the single figure plant numbers down to 8, & consider 9 plants on the upper scale(9-15), which is pretty shady! Trees & ScrOG it is! Typicle of British sentencing/law.
I think we can safely say 4-6 plants is a lower band offence, with applicable fine!(notice how they say about 8 lol???) expect lower level community orders added if you have form! but those band numbers are maximums i believe. (edit) im not sure a judge would see the sole owner of a small grow as subordinate, it could be argued as a lead role imo, those are only guidlines, mmm.! Dangerous in Mags courts!(3 Judges), i wouldnt want to be in that 9-15 band myself!

A mate of mine got knicked with 4 plants in December(in full bloom) & was really worried he was off to jail, his solictor showed him the latest law books & sentencing guidlines as at Dec 2010, which put his mind at rest a little. He got a £350 fine & was released. he had form too, but hadnt been in bother with the law for over a decade which counted for alot i believe.

 

[gonzo`]

if you get popped for one of the smaller ops, less than 8 plants, do you get a criminal record? Or in other words, what limits do you have to stay within to avoid getting a criminal record? thanks

 

[Scrogerman]

if you get popped for one of the smaller ops, less than 8 plants, do you get a criminal record? Or in other words, what limits do you have to stay within to avoid getting a criminal record? thanks

Of course you 'could' get a crim record for cultivation, even 1 plant you would/could. You could also get a police caution for 1-2 plants, first offence, it would depend. You could get a caution! im not sure the caution would ever get spent though as its a drug charge. I know cautions for drugs stay on Enhanced record checks for life. (CRB/ECRB) Criminal records Bureau.

Police cautions are official warnings, for drugs they stay with you for life, so if you ever wanna work with kids/disabled etc, ECRB checks are compulsory when working with Kids etc, its an 'Enhanced CRB check', Cautions for Drugs follow you around like shit for life! nearly as bad as a conviction. Theres no limit really, its upto the police & CPS (Crown prosecution service) if they wanna take further action, then a caution wouldnt apply.

A buddy of mine got knicked for an un-weighable amount of Hashish, didnt register on the police scales, 0.0g's lol, he got a £70 fine & 40 hours community service, & it was printed in the local newspapers, who made out it was soo big they couldnt fit it on any scale, paps lov blowing up that kinda shit, that was a fair few years ago mind, might be different now, the police can dish out £80 spot fines for small amounts, with a verbal warning, but im not sure if the law has changes on that score now. thats how it was a few years back!

 

[McSnappler]

Well, for a totally personal grow ("subordinate role") of no more than "about 8" plants ("very small" operation) - the bottom of the proposed category range is Discharge.

To have any hope of this being the outcome, I'd imagine you want to at the very least tick a few boxes:

a) first time offender
b) guilty plea at first opportunity
c) isolated incident - always make it look like your first grow
b) shows remorse

I wouldn't like to hazard a guess whether this would be enough to get a discharge, as opposed to a fine, but there's a reasonable chance. Your best bet would be to avoid any aggravating factor, and try and have as much mitigation as possible.. then hope for the best.

As far as I'm aware, Discharge means that whilst you have been found/plead guilty, you are not deemed to have been convicted of the offence. Legal eagles PLEASE step in and tell is whether this is, indeed, a fact..

 

[Caspa420]

A friend got busted month ago and got caught with 8 x 1" tall seedlings and evidence that there was a much larger grow just been finished, and 20g's of dried bud.. and had togo to court. They were the same hadn't been in trouble for a decade and got a £200 fine. first time for cultivation.
This law sucks hard!

 

[gonzo`]

how are people this small getting caught though? makes no sense...

 

[Scrogerman]

Well, for a totally personal grow ("subordinate role") of no more than "about 8" plants ("very small" operation) - the bottom of the proposed category range is Discharge.

To have any hope of this being the outcome, I'd imagine you want to at the very least tick a few boxes:

a) first time offender
b) guilty plea at first opportunity
c) isolated incident - always make it look like your first grow
b) shows remorse

I wouldn't like to hazard a guess whether this would be enough to get a discharge, as opposed to a fine, but there's a reasonable chance. Your best bet would be to avoid any aggravating factor, and try and have as much mitigation as possible.. then hope for the best.

As far as I'm aware, Discharge means that whilst you have been found/plead guilty, you are not deemed to have been convicted of the offence. Legal eagles PLEASE step in and tell is whether this is, indeed, a fact..

Right on Snapp, Showing remorse should never be overlooked. Contacted/self reffering to your local drug council, for councilling & support & show your addressing your issues will go along way when it comes to writing reports for the courts(more ammo), everyone who ever gets knicked should do this, & it goes without saying to get a Doctor on side before getting knicked, at least explain your use of Canna on Med grounds & the symptoms it alleviates. Character references etc ect. Theres an awefull lot of stuff we can use in Mitigation. Be prepared! Im still not sure all judges would see sole percy growers as Subordinate, they may see it as a leading role, as you could be the sole operator, that point could certainly be argued. They are refering to Subordinate as 'Small time' yes! be up to the judge imo.

Discharge, would mean Release without conviction as far as im aware! or Let Go! Id say your right there Snapp.
Then theres Conditional Discharge(N/A), Break conditions get convicted for original offence too. Straight Discharge has to be let go!

 

[Caspa420]

loose lips, plus ppl living ontop of each other makes it hard. plus these days as its so in your face everybody who smokes is a suspected grower. forces one tobe a hermit. why u medi guys have it so good i envy u all lol

 

[gonzo`]

why aren't they shutting down hydro shops? surely this would be the first thing to legislate against... why can seeds still be sold legally but germinating them is offence? Whats the point of buying selling seeds if you can't grow them?

Lastly, how many people get caught by choppers?

 

[shafty420]

choppers are more for big comercial grows but half time they find them by accident when out doing another task i.e more important things main cause of gettin busted is loose lips and not using proper extraction

 

[McSnappler]

Im still not sure all judges would see sole percy growers as Subordinate, they may see it as a leading role, as you could be the sole operator, that point could certainly be argued. They are refering to Subordinate as 'Small time' yes! be up to the judge imo.

I don't think it will though, that's the whole point of these guidelines. Although you're right, judges have the final say, these will be guidelines for 'typical' cases. If your case is extraordinary, be prepared for the judge to do as he sees fit.

As far as I intepret it, though, you can't possibly be in a "leading" role, by their definitions, if you don't sell any herb.

Leading

• "expectation of substantial financial gain"
• "evidence of professional dealing, for example deal lists, drug dealing paraphernalia, such as scales, packaging.."

Subordinate

• "If own operation, absence of any financial gain, for example joint purchase for no profit, or sharing minimal quantity between peers on non-commercial basis, such as a reefer"

 

[Scrogerman]

The same can be argued for Production charges Vs Cultivation, there cant be one without the other, but Production is viewed as more serious. If you commit the act of Cultivation how is it not a leading role, you are the only person in charge, bought equipment with intent to grow yourself meds, could that be argued by a Judge? IDK, its Subordinate as small time yes, but you still are MD of the Operation no matter how big or small. see what i mean or have i bin smoking too much again,. lol!

Anyway its better for us that they dont.! We as Growers will take those sentencing guidlines all day! better for all of us!

Great thread Snapp i must say.

One thing i think may help alot of growers out there who live with other people/family & kids. Please Listen!
If whom ever lives in the premises where Cannabis Cultivation is in production has access to the room where its happening then all hell could be let lose & this is a serious agrivating factor & all growers in this position should protect themselves & their loved ones from prosecution & esp the social services if you have kids, they will come a knocking if you get knicked & you could even lose them to care in certain cases. I sugest you use all means available to you to make doors secure/inaccessable to others, & make sure you are the only one with knowledge of the grow in the house, & more use padlocks & other security means to make sure you are the only one with access. this point could save alot of heart break & strife, trust me i know!

sorry my writing skills are crap! sure you catch my drift! If your the only one with knowledge & access, then that could save your misses from prosecution & losing your kids to care. Those are very possible outcomes if you live with others. warrants serious consideration.