Raising Ebb & Gro buckets to increase root space

[brightskies]

Can I add some kind of spacer in the bottom bucket that would raise the inner bucket up an inch or so to allow more root mass to develop?

On my first run with this Ebb & Gro system, the roots CRAMMED into this space and the plants appeared root-bound. But that can't happen in hydro right?

Here's a picture:

I didn't have any problems on the first run, just trying to optimize things for this next run already started.

Has anybody done something like stand up a two inch long piece of 2" pvc in the outer pot?

I imagine you would have to seal the new light penetration caused by lifting the inner bucket up. Maybe a round piece of weatherstrip or something to close the new gap between the tops of the buckets. Also, you'd probably lose the ability to rotate the plants for even lighting.

Just thinking out loud. Isn't it true that more roots= more bud? Anyone do this?

 

[Squire5683]

Wow bro... I have a 48 site Ebb and Flow like yours and I have never seen anything like this. What do your plants look like and whats in your buckets?? Any more pics?

 

[brightskies]

Hey Squire! On my first run, I only had 7 plants under two 1K HPS, so they were pretty meaty. Still, I don't consider myself to be an experienced grower.

Pics of the girls? Why sure! Here are a couple of the bigger ones from the last run:

This one is a Dutchgrown Seeds Select Mix:

Lots of pics in my albums.

I'm glad you checked in Squire- nice to meet you. I'll have to see what that bright light is shining from your profile. Lots of good pics it looks like. And ebb & gro too.

Click the link below for my current grow. They are bigger and better than before (so far). That's why I'm trying to think ahead a little bit before the roots get jammed.

 

[odium33]

maybe just go with a smaller inside pot. it would be less hydroton up top, and theoretically a thicker root wad like you have there!

also not trying to derail your thread, just got a few questions for an ebb and gro user (im considering picking one up) how many times a day are you having to flood these big guys? how about when they are smaller? How many weeks veg do those big ones have?

 

[DHF]

Gotta love a good ebb and flow bucket thread with juicy rootporn like yours BS..........and you`re bitchin bout wantin MORE rootmass.....lol...You`re absolutely right in that rootmass is directly related to upper foliage and budset once flipped to 12/12.....

Once the stretch is over after 40% of the flower cycle , roots dont grow anymore........their only function is ta suck juice and swell buds/colas..........so.......to answer your question in relation to raising the upper container for more lower rootmass is not needed for the size plants you`re growing , and as you said would haveta be light-proofed...........

The answer to more rootmass is use bigger containers.........I ran DIY 5 gal ebb and flow buckets for well over 5 yrs with dialed results , because I knew from growin krusty buckets for 8 yrs before that with knowledge of the larger the rootmass , the bigger the plant can grow and swell...........

You`ve got excellent root management in the 2 1/2 gal containers , and are prolly maxed out for rootzone/upper plant development from your pics.......

I`ve got growbro`s that ran 3 1/2 gal buckets inside the 5 gal ones to save on medium and had more roots in the bottom containers , but it didn`t grow bigger plants , so that oughta answer your question bout raisin the containers for more roots down low..............

The 5 gal inside 5 gal`s I ran grew bigger plants with more rootmass in the "upper buckets" , with roots down below sittin in juice just for nutrient uptake once swellage begins during mid flower.........

Go look at Heath`s thread on the last page where dewd posted pics of his "rootporn"....that`ll make yas jealous , but his is RDWC not E&F....apples and oranges....but.....just like your pics.....serious rootporn ....

Thanks and Good luck BS.....DHF...............

 

[brightskies]

maybe just go with a smaller inside pot. it would be less hydroton up top, and theoretically a thicker root wad like you have there!

also not trying to derail your thread, just got a few questions for an ebb and gro user (im considering picking one up) how many times a day are you having to flood these big guys? how about when they are smaller? How many weeks veg do those big ones have?

Hey odium! Yeah, that makes sense. You would think every bit of room would help. When I tore these ladies down, I was only able to reuse a handful of the hydroton. The rest was all bound together like a chunk of concrete.

Glad to help with any E&F questions my friend! Although, this is now only my second run- I'm no expert.

I started them from seed and pre-vegged in my little chamber under 24/0 CFL's for about 4 weeks. Then I vegged them 18/6 under the 1K HPS for about 4 more weeks before flowering them. I almost killed them once, so deduct at least a few days.

Once they were established in the system I watered about every 3 hours lights on. Once a lot of roots got down in the lower bucket, I raised the buckets about 1 1/2" and watered every 4 hours. An important point is that my rockwool cubes stay dry and are not in the flood zone.

Feel free to ask anytime.

 

[stonedar]

brightskies, I gotta tell you I just came from a trade show where they were demonstrating the sure to grow inserts for the cap ebb & flow system. holy crap, I mean holy crap! you want more root space use a media that you can grow throw like the sure to grow, all that room your balls are taking up full of roots roots and more roots. they just came out with an agregate version that is a direct replacement for hydroton called hail. I don't work for suretogrow but I could sell it. zomg! you like the 4x4 or 6x6 rockwool on top of the media like that? sure to grow has you covered there too, they make block just like grodan sizes, plop one of those onto somw hail and boom! instant root space. as far as growing with it, you grow just like normal. EXCEPT you flood more often for less time each flood. consider suretogrow, I gotta stop I sound like a commercial.
I just ordered my 1st bag of hail, it seems like it's worth trying.

also have you seen the new 5 gallon cap ebb & grow? I haven't seen one in person but it sounds nice...


nice plants, btw

 

[Haps]

My tidal systems are based on e&f buckets, but single, like dwc, so I have more root space. Your plants look like they reached their potential nicely. I have more room for roots, but past a certain size point, I do not see the best roots paired with the best yield when I do my clean up and evaluate root health for the crop. It would be interesting to try one and see if it does help, let us know if ya do it. Root health is more important than size, like wieners.
H

 

[brightskies]

Gotta love a good ebb and flow bucket thread with juicy rootporn like yours BS..........and you`re bitchin bout wantin MORE rootmass.....lol...You`re absolutely right in that rootmass is directly related to upper foliage and budset once flipped to 12/12.....

Once the stretch is over after 40% of the flower cycle , roots dont grow anymore........their only function is ta suck juice and swell buds/colas..........so.......to answer your question in relation to raising the upper container for more lower rootmass is not needed for the size plants you`re growing , and as you said would haveta be light-proofed...........

The answer to more rootmass is use bigger containers.........I ran DIY 5 gal ebb and flow buckets for well over 5 yrs with dialed results , because I knew from growin krusty buckets for 8 yrs before that with knowledge of the larger the rootmass , the bigger the plant can grow and swell...........

You`ve got excellent root management in the 2 1/2 gal containers , and are prolly maxed out for rootzone/upper plant development from your pics.......

I`ve got growbro`s that ran 3 1/2 gal buckets inside the 5 gal ones to save on medium and had more roots in the bottom containers , but it didn`t grow bigger plants , so that oughta answer your question bout raisin the containers for more roots down low..............

The 5 gal inside 5 gal`s I ran grew bigger plants with more rootmass in the "upper buckets" , with roots down below sittin in juice just for nutrient uptake once swellage begins during mid flower.........

Go look at Heath`s thread on the last page where dewd posted pics of his "rootporn"....that`ll make yas jealous , but his is RDWC not E&F....apples and oranges....but.....just like your pics.....serious rootporn ....

Thanks and Good luck BS.....DHF...............

Hey DHF!

Thanks a lot for checking in- I appreciate it!

The root picture above was taken just before flipping the lights to 12/12. So, I'm assuming more roots would still grow if they had space.

I'm going to have to do a side by side using 5 gal buckets next time. I've got 2 controller buckets.

Yeah Man, I've seen Heath's roots. Damn! Gonna have to get me a new system already!

 

[brightskies]

brightskies, I gotta tell you I just came from a trade show where they were demonstrating the sure to grow inserts for the cap ebb & flow system. holy crap, I mean holy crap! you want more root space use a media that you can grow throw like the sure to grow, all that room your balls are taking up full of roots roots and more roots. they just came out with an agregate version that is a direct replacement for hydroton called hail. I don't work for suretogrow but I could sell it. zomg! you like the 4x4 or 6x6 rockwool on top of the media like that? sure to grow has you covered there too, they make block just like grodan sizes, plop one of those onto somw hail and boom! instant root space. as far as growing with it, you grow just like normal. EXCEPT you flood more often for less time each flood. consider suretogrow, I gotta stop I sound like a commercial.
I just ordered my 1st bag of hail, it seems like it's worth trying.

also have you seen the new 5 gallon cap ebb & grow? I haven't seen one in person but it sounds nice...


nice plants, btw

Hey stonedar! Thanks Man! I haven't looked at STG for quite a while. All of the reports at that time were negative. I'll have to look into this new stuff. Thanks for bringing it to my atention.

Yeah, I have only seen a photo of the new ebb & gro system. Maybe I'll try and get a couple of their pots and try it. Isn't it a 5 gal? They show BIG "trees" growing in it.

My tidal systems are based on e&f buckets, but single, like dwc, so I have more root space. Your plants look like they reached their potential nicely. I have more room for roots, but past a certain size point, I do not see the best roots paired with the best yield when I do my clean up and evaluate root health for the crop. It would be interesting to try one and see if it does help, let us know if ya do it. Root health is more important than size, like wieners.
H

Hi Haps! Nice to meet you. Your grow method sounds interesting. I'm going to have check it out.

If I do something, I'll be sure to post it here.

 

[brightskies]

Well, I worked in my garage for about 3 minutes and came up with this:

The pot fits snugly and it gives me a couple of extra inches.

What do you think? Should I try it? I guess I COULD run a side by side with 2 control buckets on one reservoir. Hadn't thought of that before.

Hmmm... this might also help me to get a more even canopy by using it only with my low growing plants. Even though I have 2 1K HPS lights, I'm soon going to flower with different strains at different ages. It's a mess!

Of course I would deploy them once things started getting crowded in the bottom bucket. Maybe instead of putting something under the buckets at that time, I'll just use the slit hose and raise the inner bucket. I could probably get the flood levels figured out easily enough.

Am I just high?

 

[stonedar]

I think early negative comments on the sure to grow is just like everything else people trying to use it just exactly like the media they replaced, when I think it takes some adjustments. the new system is 5 gallon.

when you change the height of the insert do you gotta change the height of the controller? if you do doesn't it raise the flood height?

 

[brightskies]

And it's pretty air-tight. There are 2 gaps, one on each side:

Oh, almost forgot...

Copyright 2420 Brightskies Megamillions Productions

 

[brightskies]

...clip... as far as growing with it, you grow just like normal. EXCEPT you flood more often for less time each flood. consider suretogrow, ...clip...

Wasn't the problem that the STG media held water for a long time and needed LESS frequency of watering? I haven't seen or heard much from Hail users. But, I'm open minded to becoming a better grower- that's for sure! I like the discussion.

I see people growing in Rockwool cubes on top of hydroton having overwatering problems too because their rockwool is getting flooded and staying wet. I keep my cubes above the water line and hand water them the first week they are in the system.

I think the main benefit of this system is the air exchange that I'm currently getting during the 6 floods on 18/6. The more floods the better I thought.

I can't flood for less than the 15 minutes my timer allows. I would love a more precise, digital timer. I think that would be a nice mod if you're building a controller bucket.

Either way, I'm starting to like the system now that I'm on my second run with it.

 

[brightskies]

I think early negative comments on the sure to grow is just like everything else people trying to use it just exactly like the media they replaced, when I think it takes some adjustments. the new system is 5 gallon.

when you change the height of the insert do you gotta change the height of the controller? if you do doesn't it raise the flood height?

I think you're right Stonedar about people's old habits. But, I wouldn't use a medium that you only water once a day in an ebb & gro system. Old air being pushed out and fresh air being sucked in is the key benefit of the system. I think.

I raised the buckets up after a few weeks to prevent the large mass of roots from soaking in the solution between waterings. I did not adjust the controller.

I think that raising only the INNER bucket should have the same effect, while at the same time giving more root space in the bottom bucket. AND THEN, a week or so later, I could add the board under both pots to have further flexibility.

I don't think you need to raise the CONTROLLER BUCKET. Although, each time you lower the water line at the bottom of the pot, you're also lowering the water line at the TOP of the pot. This DOES cause a layer of roots to become dry and never see water again.

But, I don't think that's really a problem unless taken to the extreme. I had large rockwool blocks on top of the hydroton and had several layers of roots go dry. Do those roots just become AIR ROOTS and absorb oxygen?

I'm just babbling off the top of my head while the creativity is flowing.

All comments welcome here! Stop me before I drive over the cliff!

 

[brightskies]

I went and looked again at the thread by our highly esteemed fellow member heath robinson. Wow, new pictures there that I hadn't seen yet.

THIS IS HEATH ROBINSON"S PICTURE:

He says those are (EDIT: Aquafarm buckets). I want mine to be exactly that thick. Hmmm, I don't remember seeing the top of that plant. That picture is within a reply. I'll have to go back and look some more, can't seem to find it yet. Here's the link to heath's thread in case you haven't seen it:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=181239&page=5

Another benefit of giving those roots more breathing room would be that the floods and drains would happen more rapidly when all of the roots are not jammed in so tightly and restricting the flow of water.

Seems to me that the faster the flood and drain are the better "hit" of fresh air the plant takes. Or is that just stoner logic?

I'd pick his brain, but he's a rock star to me and I don't want to pester him.

 

[morrisgreenberg]

i am sorry and i dont know if you guys have spoken about this, but raising the inner pot more than ONE inch will cause your roots to grow into the feed line, jamming up a whiole row of plants, trust me on this i been running this system for 2 yrs now and only one failure is when i raised buckets 1.75inches higher than the controller bucket, i raise the whole plant site not just the inner buckets, the issues is if the roots sit in that space of water as per instructions, they will not grow as fast, if you allow less water and more root space the roots always go out in search of more water, the roots sitting in the pool of water will not be encouraged and have no need to keep going. people's main worry is they believe this pool of water in the bottom bucket becomes stagnant, this is not true. IMHO if your going to fiddle around with raising anything, you can raise the whole outer/iner bucket plant site one inch higher than controller. i lost 6 beautiful plants because they all had roost clog up the line

 

[DHF]

Those pics of Heathie`s are "aquafarms" BS , and a fair size bigger than waterfarm units..........Plus , his setup`s high flow recirculating DWC , not ebb and flow buckets.......apples and oranges...

Back in my ol krusty bucket days , the standard operating procedure was a 6" netpot turned upside down for the upper 5 gal bucket ta sit on like a spacer and thought to raise it for more rootzone , but it was actually to weave soakerhose in and out of for the "air to roots" froth and spraying of the roots hangin down.........

What yas did with the split hose to tighten up and suspend the top container looks good , and every bit of rootmass yas can build till stretch is over means more upper foliage and budsites IME.......I didn`t know your first pic was right as they were flipped.......

Strain dependent , they`ll stretch 3-4 more weeks , or more indica dominant species/varietie`s slim ta none..........Gotta know your strain ta know how much rootmass yas can build till stretch is over and budset/swellage begins............

THAT determines what size container yas need once you figure out how much of a rootmass yas can grow with said strain for optimal yields..........Always filled my 5 gal buckets with roots........Roots make shoots.....period.........

You WILL needta raise the controller cuz ain`t no such thing as "air roots" unless they`re in media of some sort in the upper containers.......Look at those same pics of Heathie`s you posted and observe the original poster`s question that I answered for him on "cord roots"........

That`s what`ll happen to yours if they`re left to dry out completely above the feed level and never get juice again........

They`ll twist into cords to be ableta suck as much juice as they can for the plants needs above , and they`ll choke out the feed process guaranteed directly affecting bottom line yields........seen it many times with DWC newbies.......same thing goes for any roots hangin without bein regularly juiced in any fast hydro setup......

Just tryinta help from all them yrs of doin this Bro........Not tryin ta tell yas what ta do........

Peace.........DHF..............

 

[dusto2k3]

do you think plant do better when you go to 4" rockwool rather than straight into the hydroton?

 

[dusto2k3]

also, growning in 5x5 square pots with hydroton, would it beneficial to put one of the 1/2" coc mats in the tray first?