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Feds reply to Cali Prop 19
- Thread starter Grendelkhan
- Start date
And as such, government and business aren't to be trusted fully.
I'm still waiting for your take on this:
Maria_Vanessa
Member
If you smoke tobacco, you have options. You don't have to smoke anything made by Big Tobacco. That's why I'm not worried about Altria Group (formerly Phillip Morris), Yum! Brands (KFC, Pizza Hut) or even Walmart wanting to start their own gigantic monoculture farms because I'll be smoking what I grow. It's the same thing with Big Alcohol. You can drink their watered stuff, or you can make your own brew.
I'm thinking the gangs would shift to another lucrative moneymaker, human trafficking. That is a crime that LEOs should be focused on because children are often the victims.
Imagine if suddenly.....globally.... cannabis was completely legalized...
....Think of all those law enforcement workers on their gravy-train pay-checks who would probably be made redundant or face having to trace and track down real criminals who commit crimes with real victims instead of busting growers and cannabis users....
...Think of all the prisons (many of which have been privatized) that would have more beds than criminals to fill them.....
....Think of all the lawyers that would have less cases to make a mint on...
...Think of all the prosecutors and judges that would have so much more free-time(or time to concentrate on REAL crimes) because their lives and courtrooms will not be full of innocent people being victimized by a victimless crime....
...Think of all the cartels that will be reduced to selling bricks of low-quality 'erb by the side of the road in Mexico......legally..
...Think hard about all the harm cannabis prohibition has done over the past 70 years and all of the innocent people that have suffered......needlessly.....creating such disrespect and dissolution for millions of people for lawmakers and the laws they made to create a whole industry around hunting down and penalizing harmless cannabis growers and users....
...Could my imagination become a reality within my lifetime?....the possibility is looking brighter each day!
....The future is bright....wear sunglasses!
....Think of all those law enforcement workers on their gravy-train pay-checks who would probably be made redundant or face having to trace and track down real criminals who commit crimes with real victims instead of busting growers and cannabis users....
...Think of all the prisons (many of which have been privatized) that would have more beds than criminals to fill them.....
....Think of all the lawyers that would have less cases to make a mint on...
...Think of all the prosecutors and judges that would have so much more free-time(or time to concentrate on REAL crimes) because their lives and courtrooms will not be full of innocent people being victimized by a victimless crime....
...Think of all the cartels that will be reduced to selling bricks of low-quality 'erb by the side of the road in Mexico......legally..
...Think hard about all the harm cannabis prohibition has done over the past 70 years and all of the innocent people that have suffered......needlessly.....creating such disrespect and dissolution for millions of people for lawmakers and the laws they made to create a whole industry around hunting down and penalizing harmless cannabis growers and users....
...Could my imagination become a reality within my lifetime?....the possibility is looking brighter each day!
....The future is bright....wear sunglasses!
Well I dont agree. I dont think feds will follow California that quickly. Other states may start proposing legalization in this next decade but you can be sure the US federal government is not going to legalize cannabis before the other states. This will not happen in the next decade.
What are you even talking about? Did you read what I wrote? We dont give aid to all countries, but we give aid to a lot. Our restrictions with that aid is you cannot sell/import/grow drugs. The other countries, our federal government influences through UN and other foreign policies. As long as federal government is banning cannabis, a good fraction if not the majority will continue to ban it as well.
I'm not talking about the Jack Hearer prop. First off, if this doesn't pass, Richard Lee will know why and he will get it to pass next year. Second, there may or may not be severe competition next ballot. I know of someone with lots of money that is considering a new prop all because of Richard Lee. He hated prop19 so much and Richard Lee for the crap he is trying to pull, it inspired him to consider this. Just depends on how prop19 turns out in November.
I was before, haven't been for quite a while now. And doesn't matter anyways because I look forward to legalization, even prop19, from a commercial point of view. Any commercial grower that doesn't like legalization (on prop19 level or above) either doesn't grow good bud, has no real business sense and doesn't want to be involved in a real business, etc.
I see legalization as an opportunity to break into the ultra premium niche market. Plus extracts will be legal under any prop (worth mentioning).
But to answer your question, no, you're incorrect.
You're kidding right? First of all, its a phrase, a figure of speech. Secondly, yeah its pretty damn guaranteed there will be a cannabis prop on the next ballot. Don't say I'm lying when you have no clue what you're talking about.
.
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Several respected people at The Standford Progressive disagree with you. Take a look: http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=190720
Basically, some believe the only way to nation wide, is through Prop's like Prop19. Look at this:
Prop 19 could end up in the Supreme Court. Which from there could strike down and end prohibition nation wide. This is a VERY possible outcome.
BigBudBill
Member
I think it is the INTENDED outcome. If WE all know the feds will be gunning for R. Lee, don't you think THEY are all preparing for a SCOTUS battle? I bet the suits are all pressed and packed right now. My only thought is feds may NOT push the issue at this time if they think they might have a chance of losing. If we are witnessing the last dying movements of prohibition, maybe they can sense it too and are not going to hasten their own demise.
complete federal legalization is the goal, but there are other worthwhile steps that aren't full legalization
there is activity in the congressional halls, slow and uncertain, but activity none the less
rescheduling is a possibility, some degree of federal decriminalization is a possibility
and as mentioned, the courts could play a hand here
but vote down 19, there is less pressure for federal change
if there is no pressure on the federal government, it will not change, that you can take to the bank so to speak
Z
zen_trikester
Frozenguy,
SO much is going to be changing between now and 2012 from a governmental standpoint. the biggest of which is Obama will likely be gone and in current elections we are probably looking at a Republican leaning house and maybe even the senate. Right now we have a pro-MMJ President. Not outwardly so of course, but the first in US history that has said OK to letting anything slide. The feds could have campaigned against this but they didn't. Pharma, cotton, and alcohol could too but they didn't. So you think they may be praying for this to fail so they can better prepare for battle the next time around? What if we end up with a conservative president in two years who tries to drop the axe on all of this AND MMJ? Wouldn't 2 years of legalization in the system make it harder for a new president to come in and muck it all up?
What about the prop itself? I don't know what magic words you are waiting for, but are they the magic words that the 60% or so of non-using Californians are waiting for? Maybe you want a bigger garden, which in the eyes of the non-users makes it easy for you to sell on the streets. Are you wanting more than an ounce carry limit? Non-users see this as intent to sell.
This prop is about compromise and it gives many people some sort of benefit... it gives money to the state, promotes tourism, and provides jobs. It deals a big blow to gangs and cartels, and cuts down on violence. It allows every Californian the right to posses, use, and cultivate... The ultimate "overgrow the government" move. It provides protection from random urine tests at work. It removes a huge burden from our legal system and jails. It will promote safer product and lower likelihood of child use through regulation. It allows for hemp production. All the while MMJ is unaffected. These benefits touch lots of peoples lives. I'm not sure what you would change but I see this as a very balanced proposal that suites the masses even if it doesn't suit the growers completely or appeal to the hippie pipe dream we should have been living 50 years ago.
With the federal government turning tide and the huge blow a no on this prop would be to the movement in general, I think it is very unlikely that Cali will get another shot at this in the near future. ESPECIALLY if they try to make it a more liberal prop the next time around since the bulk of the no voters are prohibitionist who don't use.
I think I see where you are coming from, but there is a lot more to it than Richard Lee writing a check and everyone skipping to the ballot box. If the next prop does make it to the ballot, and if it is less liberal than this prop, you can bet that many smokers will vote on whatever it is just to have something, and if it gets that far it may pass but will be less than what we are looking at now. If it is more liberal than this, you can bet the conservatives will be up in arms and they will do whatever it takes to win over those on the fence. Right now I see this as the smokers like yourself who will be the swing vote toward no and a victory for the prohibitionists. Well... I think it is going to pass regardless of no-vote smokers, but if not I see that as it's demise.
If you are pinning huge pot factories and taxed/regulated medical grows to 19, don't be a fool. those things are going to be pushed regardless and will only be more prevalent over the next two years if this doesn't pass since Cali is looking for a way to better control things.
Jed
SO much is going to be changing between now and 2012 from a governmental standpoint. the biggest of which is Obama will likely be gone and in current elections we are probably looking at a Republican leaning house and maybe even the senate. Right now we have a pro-MMJ President. Not outwardly so of course, but the first in US history that has said OK to letting anything slide. The feds could have campaigned against this but they didn't. Pharma, cotton, and alcohol could too but they didn't. So you think they may be praying for this to fail so they can better prepare for battle the next time around? What if we end up with a conservative president in two years who tries to drop the axe on all of this AND MMJ? Wouldn't 2 years of legalization in the system make it harder for a new president to come in and muck it all up?
What about the prop itself? I don't know what magic words you are waiting for, but are they the magic words that the 60% or so of non-using Californians are waiting for? Maybe you want a bigger garden, which in the eyes of the non-users makes it easy for you to sell on the streets. Are you wanting more than an ounce carry limit? Non-users see this as intent to sell.
This prop is about compromise and it gives many people some sort of benefit... it gives money to the state, promotes tourism, and provides jobs. It deals a big blow to gangs and cartels, and cuts down on violence. It allows every Californian the right to posses, use, and cultivate... The ultimate "overgrow the government" move. It provides protection from random urine tests at work. It removes a huge burden from our legal system and jails. It will promote safer product and lower likelihood of child use through regulation. It allows for hemp production. All the while MMJ is unaffected. These benefits touch lots of peoples lives. I'm not sure what you would change but I see this as a very balanced proposal that suites the masses even if it doesn't suit the growers completely or appeal to the hippie pipe dream we should have been living 50 years ago.
With the federal government turning tide and the huge blow a no on this prop would be to the movement in general, I think it is very unlikely that Cali will get another shot at this in the near future. ESPECIALLY if they try to make it a more liberal prop the next time around since the bulk of the no voters are prohibitionist who don't use.
I think I see where you are coming from, but there is a lot more to it than Richard Lee writing a check and everyone skipping to the ballot box. If the next prop does make it to the ballot, and if it is less liberal than this prop, you can bet that many smokers will vote on whatever it is just to have something, and if it gets that far it may pass but will be less than what we are looking at now. If it is more liberal than this, you can bet the conservatives will be up in arms and they will do whatever it takes to win over those on the fence. Right now I see this as the smokers like yourself who will be the swing vote toward no and a victory for the prohibitionists. Well... I think it is going to pass regardless of no-vote smokers, but if not I see that as it's demise.
If you are pinning huge pot factories and taxed/regulated medical grows to 19, don't be a fool. those things are going to be pushed regardless and will only be more prevalent over the next two years if this doesn't pass since Cali is looking for a way to better control things.
Jed
R
rick shaw
Jed do you really see Obama losing in '12 and the Republicans taking control of Congress in November.Who do you see the republicans backing in 2012 Romney,Huckaby,Jeb Bush.The worst thing I see happening is losing the Senate.I feel the majority of prop 19 voters would not vote for Whitman,Dennis or Fiorina.
Z
zen_trikester
I don't know Rick... Obama hung his hat, and our $$$ on the obamacare thing and something like 20 states are fighting it. I haven't looked at public opinion polls recently but I can't imagine things are looking up for him. I doubt I will ever vote republican or democratic again. I am so adamantly against 2-party politics these days that I think I will just be voting for independents from here on out. Unfortunately, most people see that as a wasted vote and since those people either feel the need to "pick the winner" or the lesser of only 2 evils, I don't see a lot of people on my coattails with that one. Here at IC more share that thought pattern than most places I'm sure. I really don't know what will happen but I can imagine that Obama is sweating right now. In reference to what I said above, I don't think it is smart to take the chance when there is something that is this good right now. Note I didn't say perfect, but I do really think this is a very good compromise and thus actually doable when you think about the varied opinions throughout.
Party politics have been so prolific in the past few years that more people will be wanting what I want (abolishment of the 2 parties), but it will have to get worse before it gets better I think. As for Congress it will be a changing of the guard most likely as it often is. Blue team has been fumbling a lot lately and the red team just may get first and 10 come November. Not that that is bad... it is just the same with a different jersey. Sorry about the football metaphor... I'm stressing over my fantasy team right now!!!
Jed
Talk to them...get them to join you. The 2 party system is really the 1 party system. Just two different flavors of the same ice cream.
Hillary baby! It's what they promised her! Obama as the sacrificial hitter and then Hillary batting cleanup.
Independents for me...what the founders wanted...local people representing local issues. And a WEAK federal government. Do you think ANY of these big spending programs would have passed with 535 independents up there? That's the beauty of it...with all independents, Congress can't DO anything, it can't ruin everything...like it does now. I NEVER want to see another majority.
And that is exactly why Holder has not threatened with a lawsuit. Because he doesn't have one. Holder is a lawyer, he knows what ball to play when. There will be no law suit over this. The federal government will not allow cannabis to be legalized nationwide within the next decade at least. We are working towards this, and a prop that passes a state ballot will help! But I'm not passing this prop.
The feds threatened and filed their lawsuit rather quickly and clearly against Az. You can be sure this wont happen here.
And if it does, then great! lol. The only point I'm making with this time frame is that the world is not looking at legalization in the next decade. This will take a long time for it to circle around the world. Even around the country. So taking another two years to get a better ballot for us, California, isn't irrational. You have to help/take care of yourself before you can help others.
I agree.. And there is still pressure on the feds. We just won Kelley, and the feds said medical growers are free under state law, which for California is currently "unlimited" for anyone over the age of 18 that wants it. And I dont remember seeing any clauses about smoking outside on your property or when minors are home. I haven't seen a lawsuit from the feds yet; but they're pissed.
We'll have another prop next year. The momentum behind cannabis legalization will not die, but grow stronger.
I assure you, if/when prop19 fails, we will have legalization the following ballot because it wont fail by much. In fact, I dont have much confidence it will fail; in other words I'm thinking 19 will pass; seems to have a lot of support regardless of the anti.
Hey I agree with a lot of that.. With that said, I'm not too worried about the next president because he/she can talk all they want but they dont have authority in this matter and they know it. Obama just made it easier for us. And by the time the next president is elected, we will have voted for the prop in, and the feds aren't going to bring a lawsuit against us.
And I think it would be career suicide for the new president to bring a lawsuit against a direct voter approved prop within the sole authority of the state and not the feds.
There are a few factors keeping me from voting, and another five or six pieces that just piss me off. It's pointless to go there because I've done it twenty times and people are tired of listening to me and I'm tired of pissing people off lol.
PS: On post #213, one of zen's, I hit "no i dont find it helpful" but didn't mean to so disregard that; I missed the multiquote button.
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Z
zen_trikester
No worries friend I'm good with the rep... rep doesn't matter anyways. I'm pretty sure I don't get any free beans when I hit 1000 or anything!
It sure doesn't sound like you are far off Fg... Think about it more and consider the risk you are taking waiting for something better. Prop 19 has a lot to work with and once it is in place it will be far easier to amend it then starting from scratch in 2 years with a "hopefully". Something to be said about getting a foot in the door, and a "bird in the hand", you know?
Jed
SkimmingDaSky
Member
As much as I want it to happen, I don't believe Obama will get reelected. There are a lot of angry people in the US despite Obama actually making a change for poor people. He should legalize mj right before his term is up. Sneak it in a bill with small font or something.Go out w/ a bang. Hell I would. And I wouldn't even give a crap. "America....marijuana is now legal...DEA....you can kiss it" That would be great. lol.
Zen, I totally agree with you. After this election, I will be voting independent from here on out. The democrats nor republicans seem to have our best interests in mind.
Zen, I totally agree with you. After this election, I will be voting independent from here on out. The democrats nor republicans seem to have our best interests in mind.
I don't want to argue with you. I know now that I cannot change your mind or any others.
I had formulated a quick response that was intellectual and rational... but I decided it would be a waste of my time.
You win. Good luck and may you reap what you sow... the good and the bad. All of you have successfully driven me from this conversation, go on repeating to each other the same stuff and believing the same thing. Your opinions are not moving...
Im a very rational, and think "outside of the box" type of person. as well as i usually root for the Underdog in most situations. As i dont like to be a follower. I think i have demonstrated that. But you bring no facts, no news clips, no legislation, no court cases, nothing to prove, that Mexican Cartels are.... wait. I'm not sure what your argument is. Because you did say this....
I showed you the pictures of the pot grown in Mexico coming over the border. Which is a SHIT load of pot, Now in prop 19 it states you can ONLY BUY BY LICENSES DEALERS. how are these " Illegal American Citizens" Going to sell there stuff to Licenses stores that distribute marijuana? I dont think any owner would take that chance... And there black market will go to Shit, as no one will trust there Pot.
As far as your walmart theory and big tobacco, Tobacco companies are big contributers to the NO on prop 19 campaign. Hmm wonder why.. Because we can grow our own!!!!!!!
Section 2, part A # 8 in prop 19
Regardless, pot snobs are still going to want the best, lots of Money in California, where people dont have to go through the trouble of growing good pot, as ITS A LOT OF WORK!
Money is Evil. Simple as that. And hemp is considered illegal, because Marijuana is considered the same substance. Legalizing the reason why hemp is illegal. Will created the mind set of legalizing hemp
Which Jack Herer has been working on hemp initiatives his whole life, and dedicated his LIfe too. RIP Jack. regardless if he was for or against prop 19, we cant speak for someone who passed away, as a lot of people who where against it, are not coming out in change of mind, FOR IT!
So obviously peoples minds do Change!!!!! Do i need links and names etc to prove this? if so just say it and its done!!!! one thread in this forum says it all..... Change of heart on prop 19~
Also i cant make prop 19, so its not what im sewing, its the people of California that will be voting on it. And Smokers are the Minority!!!
SCF
