Is eating meat like playing russian roulette

[Grat3fulh3ad]

human beings were not designed, human beings evolved to be omnivorous.
Eating meat was the basis for the invention of tools, and the concept of cooking, and is responsible in great part for our large and intelligent brains.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Cecil replies:
Listen, wimp--whoops, too aggressive. Gimme some of that tofu burger. Ah, I can feel the testosterone receding already. Now then, let us reason like gentlemen. There are some intelligent arguments for vegetarianism, but claiming that man is "naturally" herbivorous isn't one of them. The settled judgment of science is that man is an omnivore, capable of eating both meat and vegetables, much as certain four-year-olds might like to convince their mothers otherwise.

Like the hard-core carnivores, we have fairly simple digestive systems well suited to the consumption of animal protein, which breaks down quickly. Contrary to what your magazine article says, the human small intestine, at 23 feet, is a little under eight times body length (assuming a mouth-to-anus "body length" of three feet). This is about midway between cats (three times body length), dogs (3-1/2 times), and other well-known meat eaters on the one hand and plant eaters such as cattle (20 to 1) and horses (12 to 1) on the other. This tends to support the idea that we are omnivores.

Herbivores also have a variety of specialized digestive organs capable of breaking down cellulose, the main component of plant tissue. Humans find cellulose totally indigestible, and even plant eaters have to take their time with it. If you were a ruminant (cud eater), for instance, you might have a stomach with four compartments, enabling you to cough up last night's alfalfa and chew on it all over again.

Or you might have an enlarged cecum, a sac attached to the intestines, where rabbits and such store food until their intestinal bacteria have time to do their stuff. Digestion in such cases takes place by a process of fermentation--bacteria actually "eat" the cellulose and the host animal consumes what results, namely bacteria dung.

The story is roughly the same with teeth. We're equipped with an all-purpose set of ivories equally suited to liver and onions.

Good thing, too. I won't claim meat is the ideal source of protein, but on the whole it's better than plants. Sure, soybeans and other products of modern agriculture are pretty nutritious. But in the wild, much of the plant menu consists of leaves and stems, which are low in food value. True herbivores have to spend much of the day scrounging for snacks just to keep their strength up.

So make no mistake: we were born to eat meat. That's not to say you have to. There's no question that strictly from a health standpoint we'd all be a lot better off eating less meat (red meat especially) and more fruits and vegetables. But vegetarians aren't going to advance their cause by making ridiculous claims.

VEGETARIANS GO APE

Dear Cecil:

Your statement that "we were born to eat meat" is nonsense. In using comparative anatomy to determine what man was "meant" to eat, we should look at the species most similar to man, namely the anthropoid apes--chimpanzees, gibbons, gorillas, and orangutans. Of all animals, man's digestive organs and teeth most closely resemble these apes. In captivity, some of these animals will eat meat if forced to rather than starve to death. But in the wild, all eat a vegetarian diet.

Another strong clue that man is naturally a vegetarian is the fact that vegetarians in general are much healthier than omnivores. The American Dietetic Association has acknowledged that vegetarians are less at risk for a number of chronic diseases, including heart disease, some types of cancer, obesity, high blood pressure, and adult-onset diabetes.

Eating a healthy diet goes far beyond cutting back a bit on red meat. In a recent study of 6,500 Chinese, Dr. T. Collin Campbell of Cornell found that even though the Chinese overall eat only a fraction of the animal protein Americans do, those who ate the least animal protein nonetheless had lower risk of disease than the average Chinese. Dr. Campbell concludes, "We're basically a vegetarian species and should be eating a wide variety of plant foods and minimizing our intake of animal foods." --Glen Kime, president, Vegetarian Society of Washington, D.C.

Dear Glen:

I feel like I'm arguing that the Pope is Catholic. To clarify a point that eluded many who wrote me about this: the issue is not whether vegetarianism is healthier, better for the planet, etc., than the standard U.S. diet. I don't doubt it is. It's whether humans are naturally vegetarians.

Here it seems to me the best evidence is our history as a species. We have been happily eating meat for at least two million years, and probably much longer. The common view among anthropologists, in fact, is that increased meat consumption was a key element in the development of human culture, since getting and distributing the stuff requires cooperation.

Not all anthropoid apes are exclusively vegetarian. The primatologist Jane Goodall established more than 20 years ago that wild chimpanzees kill other animals once in a while and eat the meat with relish. Other primates (although apparently not gorillas) do so as well. It's true chimps and other apes eat a mostly veggie diet, but for that matter so do most humans. Hunter-gatherers today consume only about 35 percent meat to 65 percent vegetables (Lee and Devore, 1976). Anyway, we and the anthropoid apes diverged six to 14 million years ago--who cares what monkeys munch now?

Your argument that meat-eaters are more prone to chronic disease is irrelevant. Chronic disease typically strikes the old, not those of prime child-rearing age. Till recently most folks never got chronic disease because they died of the acute kind first. It's had minimal impact on our ability to reproduce ourselves, which of course is the basis of natural selection. In short, as we evolved, chronic disease did not "select out" for vegetarianism. I trust you see the significance of this.

There is much to be said for vegetarianism. I am at a loss to know why vegetarians cannot be content simply to say it, without taking the argument over a cliff.








Why eat meat?

Nutrition & Well-Being
Meat is not only one of the very oldest foods for humans, but is also one the most biologically valuable. This fact is mainly due to its high protein content. In addition, however, a part of the human requirement for vitamins and iron is also covered by eating meat. It is therefore not surprising that meat has an especially high importance in the menu planning of those people who have to deliver extreme performances.

The composition

In general, raw, unprocessed meat from the muscle is made up of the following:

Protein
15 - 22 %

Fat
3 - 15 %

Minerals, carbohydrates
1 - 5 %

Water
65 - 75 %

Protein
Meat protein supplies the body with the necessary amino acids in almost the ratio that it needs. It is therefore of particularly high value.



Fat
The fat that is present in meat not only represents a high-quality source of energy, but is also an important quality factor. The juiciness and the aroma of meat and meat products is largely determined by the fat content. In addition, the fat from the meat from the muscle contains fatty acids that are indispensable for humans, and therefore has a very high nutritional physiological value.

Trace elements
Meat exhibits a wide spectrum of various trace elements in a balanced composition. A special importance is hereby placed on iron, which is present in meat in a form that can be utilised particularly well by humans. A significant proportion of the iron requirement of humans is covered by meat. Meat also plays an important role in the supply of zinc.



Vitamins
The water-soluble vitamins of the B-complex from meat and certain entrails make an important contribution to a human being’s vitamin supply. Humans are particularly dependent on foodstuffs from animal sources for the supply of Vitamin B12. With 100 g of muscle meat, the need for individual B-vitamins can be covered to between 20 % and 100 %. The liver takes a special position with regard to vitamin content, which, in addition to the B-vitamins, also has a high Vitamin A content.

 

[Panoramical]

Cecil replies:
Listen, wimp--whoops, too aggressive. Gimme some of that tofu burger. Ah, I can feel the testosterone receding already. Now then, let us reason like gentlemen. There are some intelligent arguments for vegetarianism, but claiming that man is "naturally" herbivorous isn't one of them.....

Here here! Great research, saved me putting together something similar.

Yes it's healthier to be a veggie, just like it's healthier to not smoke weed. But we obviously all choose to take the good with the bad when smoking it.

Same goes with meat, I'll choose a medium-rare fillet steak over tofu any day. Regardless of the long term health implications of red meat.

How well our bodies respond to the food we eat will also be determined by our bloodline, going back thousands of years. Since, some of us have evolved to me more herby's than others. For instance an Inuit's diet (predominately fat and meat) is completely different to that of someone living in a jungle (very balanced). But they both survive perfectly well because humans are insanely good at adapting.

The above is a theory to explain why some of us reject certain foods that others can consume without any side-effects.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

How well our bodies respond to the food we eat will also be determined by our bloodline, going back thousands of years. Since, some of us have evolved to me more herby's than others. For instance an Inuit's diet (predominately fat and meat) is completely different to that of someone living in a jungle (very balanced). But they both survive perfectly well because humans are insanely good at adapting.

The above is a theory to explain why some of us reject certain foods that others can consume without any side-effects.

http://www.drlam.com/blood_type_diet/

 

[sac beh]

Your argument that meat-eaters are more prone to chronic disease is irrelevant. Chronic disease typically strikes the old, not those of prime child-rearing age. Till recently most folks never got chronic disease because they died of the acute kind first.

This part is little misleading, that we more often suffer chronic disease because the acute kind is better treated doesn't make the occurrence and causes of chronic disease irrelevant.

Other than that, what he's saying seems right, especially:

There is much to be said for vegetarianism. I am at a loss to know why vegetarians cannot be content simply to say it, without taking the argument over a cliff.

That's the crux. And I'm in agreement with the OP's point that careful selection of your meat and food sources is the best thing you can do for your health and the health of the animals/environment.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

This part is little misleading, that we more often suffer chronic disease because the acute kind is better treated doesn't make the occurrence and causes of chronic disease irrelevant.

It does make the occurrence and causes irrelevant to whether or not mankind evolved to eat meat or not, which is what was being addressed. Anything that happens to an organism only after it is past reproductive age, is irrelevant to that species evolution.

It is very relevant to this discussion as a whole, absolutely, but it is moot to the argument that man did not evolve to eat meat.

 

[trouble]

This thread is gonna turn into a giant shitstorm very very soon....folks don't like their meat eating being criticized.

As fer nutrients, sac beh, you have to make sure to look after yer B12 intake...that a hard one to find in veggies etc. Wheatgrass, miso, nutritional yeast and a few others are good non-meat B12 sources.

B12 is a tough one. Like all B complex family vitamins they are not easily absorbed by the body, however, green vegetables like broccli & spinach are proven to enhance the absorption rate.

I'm a meat eater, however, I keep a fridge full of B12 injectables. I give myself a B-12 shot every other week. If I'm feeling sluggish or lack energy, I take one every week.

 

[sac beh]

I've never found the evolutionary arguments against meat consumption to be persuasive. I've also heard them coupled with Biblical references quite often, which makes them more flimsy.

I wonder if the Transhumanists take a particular stand on diet in human evolution

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

I've never found the evolutionary arguments against meat consumption to be persuasive. I've also heard them coupled with Biblical references quite often, which makes them more flimsy.

Neither have I, but since it was brought up and since the author was only addressing that portion of the argument, i felt it fair enough to moot the chronic disease sub-portion of that portion of the discussion.

I wonder if the Transhumanists take a particular stand on diet in human evolution

Aren't they the ones who'll end up condensing nutrition down to a few pills?

 

[VerdantGreen]

i became a veggie soon after this album came out and have been ever since - over 20 years now. the reasons for not eating meat have stacked up considerably since then.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

If one is able to choose their sources carefully and able to make the rule of their diet to eat a large variety of foods and to keep all of their portion sizes similar and moderate, then chronic disease would become a non issue. I heard a nutritionist once say that one could easily eat a balanced diet by eating as many different colored (naturally, not with dyes, lol) foods as they could each day.

 

[sac beh]

i became a veggie soon after this album came out and have been ever since - over 20 years now. the reasons for not eating meat have stacked up considerably since then.

Morrissey usually advocates based on animal well-being arguments, which are most interesting to me. But the guy is over the top militant..

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

If you're going to choose a diet for purely healthy reasons, Pescetarians outlive everyone.

 

[sac beh]

Aren't they the ones who'll end up condensing nutrition down to a few pills?

a la The Jetsons? Neat..

 

[VerdantGreen]

If you're going to choose a diet for purely healthy reasons, Pescetarians outlive everyone.

i think thats pretty much true, certainly it is easier to have a balanced diet that way, more effort to get certain types of nutrition being a total veggie but it can be done. now i have kids i do feed them fish and occasionally have some myself as it's easier to cook that way.
both my wife and i have been veggie for a long time and, despite the smoking and booze etc, we seem to be looking less old than our friends who are mainly enthusiastic meat eaters. touch wood.

i also particularly like the theory of the 'aquatic ape' being the missing link in human evolution. the idea we lived on the shoreline and ate a lot of seafood and shellfish which gave us the necessary nutrition to develop large brains. many human features such as subcutanious fat, hairlessness, webbed fingers etc go to support it.

VG

 

[BrainSellz]

Its wierd how the word catylist has the word "Catle" in it, kind of ironic. Hormone induced cattle seems to be the perfect catylist for cancer. It almost seems as if they should have named the word "diet" "livit", it definitely sounds better. imo

 

[SuperSizeMe]

i became a veggie soon after this album came out and have been ever since - over 20 years now. the reasons for not eating meat have stacked up considerably since then.

Completely off-topic here, but I'm curious to know what your stance on abortion would be?

I think I could probably venture a guess, and you don't have to answer if you're not comfortable.

/Back on topic

 

[VerdantGreen]

Completely off-topic here, but I'm curious to know what your stance on abortion would be?

I think I could probably venture a guess, and you don't have to answer if you're not comfortable.

/Back on topic

whilst i understand and respect many people's strong beliefs against abortion, i think people should be allowed to make their own choices about such things. i hate it when people force their own ideologies on other people - who may believe something different or be in a totally different situation. so i guess i'm pro choice.

VG

 

[sac beh]

whilst i understand and respect many people's strong beliefs against abortion, i think people should be allowed to make their own choices about such things. i hate it when people force their own ideologies on other people - who may believe something different or be in a totally different situation. so i guess i'm pro choice.

And plus, if he was trying to catch you in an inconsistency between animal welfare and embryo/fetus abortion, its not a good comparison. We are animals also, so the comparison would have to be human/non-animal welfare or human/non-human animal abortion. So the better question would be what his views on non-human animal abortion are... but that's way off topic.

 

[VerdantGreen]

yeah, people's reactions to veggies are interesting (not judging that particular one) but generally meat eaters react fairly badly to it and will try and find something that allows them to call you a hypocrite - like pointing to your leather shoes and saying 'what about them' or whatever. like they took my vegetarianism as a challenge to their own actions.
i would always tell those people that it was my own conscience that i was clearing.

VG