do you really loose flavor in hydro ???

[Sam_Skunkman]

lol i agree that the soil web is superior for plant nutrition

I agree that hydro dynamics do make improvements to the balance of oxygen and water that is very difficult to replicate in soil

my observation is that they ARE NOT mutually exclusive

IME simply adding some off the shelf bacteria to a more porous pro mix type substrate & feeding it ionically regardless of source is a superior method to use as a baseline for med cropping



i think that the future is compost tea, brewing microbes and breaking down the nutrients in organic compounds and feeding it hydroponically to the plants

its being done already by most nute lines, but they hide the real ingredients because to replicate these items is really fairly easy

to have to learn all this for the emerging caretaker market is too much i.e. the intricacies of the soil web

but to be able to identify base components that should be part of your feeding regime and seeing the cause and effect of their presence is equally important

on of the big issues with true organics indoor environments and medical marijuana are the potential pathogens and the time it takes to let the soil become active

this accounts for that. Buy your macro micros and add the components of the heard you need, inject them, kept them fed

if your not recycling your soil leaving anything in it after is waste

i think this method really bridges the gap and allows the caretaker entering the market to have a better starting point for good med without having to understand soil and rhizosphere biology or sealed room technologies

grow, get some meds, see how the games treats you, take another step

When I try to read your posts my head starts spinning, your thoughts are all over the page...
Are you trying to write so cryptic? Or is it beyond your control?
I think in your heart you mean well, but I am having trouble deciphering what you really mean.

-SamS

 

[robbiedublu]

You know bro I see the benifits of coco but it's not for me..lol there are a few things I don't like ,maybe I got cheap shit I don't know..
One thing is you need to really step up your cal-mag lol Next forget cloning they hate that shit lol lol.. Sticking to what works for me ..lol peace out Headband707

I clone in pure coco and get damn near 100%. Funny how what works for one is straight poison for someone else. I do think the brand of coco makes all the difference.

 

[RNDZL]

When I try to read your posts my head starts spinning, your thoughts are all over the page...
Are you trying to write so cryptic? Or is it beyond your control?
I think in your heart you mean well, but I am having trouble deciphering what you really mean.

-SamS

well whats in my heart means absolute shit in regards to growing and if my logic fails ill be glad to admit it. What matters is the understanding of the "big picture", but since its so hard for people to understand me I will try to summarize what I have been saying. Now understand too I took a detour to answer lazy man so I did deviate a bit

FIRST and FOREMOST

the simple fact that science hasn't been even able to replicate more than about 1% of the living bacteria that is found in the living soil in a laboratory. I do not believe in one instance that many of these discussion are "beyond" qualification. Micro-biology is still in it infancy, let alone rhizosphere interactions.

So before I continue to confuse let me extract this point: The answer to taste may be related nutritional uptake which is facilitated by bacteria

Now this is not the only one dynamic involved. The second factor to be considered is what I am calling hydro-dynamics. Hydro Dynamics, the perfect balance of air and water, when coupled with a sound nutritional program does give very aggressive growth rates. Now i tend to deviate here because in the big picture this can be misconstrued as hydro is superior and that is not what i am saying. For the sake of continuity I will continue on the path of hydro-dynamics and its effect on taste and smell.

In my hydro grows smell was as much a factor if not more so because the aggressive metabolism and a lack of slack grow times. the :tightness: comment regarding hydro struck me, because it does have some possible bearing of truth. Having run the same cut for close to a decade and run it many time in water and soil, it made me consider what is the :tight: differential.

Well lets define it. Sharper more defined core taste bet less complexity in tastes. Now where I look at the physical differences in grow style and the ramifications it has on the root physiology and the differences in bacterial population by virtue of my water grows at those times had no added bacteria I consider if these are possible factors to be considered.

I do not think it is as simple, and I also contend nutrient source can play a factor. In the grows I am referencing I used the same nutrients so there were fairly level playing fields. I did not do side by side taste tests. I made the migration from water for other reasons. If your adding a synthetic nutes that have only micros and macros, vs a soil amended with guano your going to have a completely different set of compounds available to the plant.

Lets be honest i said it pretty simple in a few posts, but then people say outrageous shit and I go off on tangents, my tangents still contain some real logic. Just like the plant root physiology posts and bacteria interactions that no one has commented on.

No matter who they are and how long they are here cant give any input on it, but in those simple examples I get shit talked and neg repped ??

AND ON TOP OF IT i get the condescending your heart is good but your making me dizzy?

I should have known, because I learned long ago that most people are so superficial in their gathering and analysis of information, that delivery alone can be the factor that they use to judge its merit. In my experience its a lack of understanding of the concepts at hand that cause the criticism on my delivery .

I think many people tell themselves they know it all because they have an inherent fear of not knowing

I mean why is it that some nobody two shit hobby grower from the east coast whose only learned from one source and absolutely one source

mel franks book

has some insight that no one else has shared ????

and then I post a simple method and grow and I get the that t cannot be replicate by the average grower

So what the fuck and I crazy genius like mother fucking van gogh? i sure as shit dont think so. I have no special capacities what so fucking ever

in fact i have neurological damage that ed to dysgraphia and dyslexia so please Sam obviously since its all me, its all the way I communicate and thats is all that matters please share with use your insight on the differentials of 'water' and 'air' roots and bacterial microbiology with marijuana and perhaps some simple trials like users at home can try?

Sam to completely honest if anyone had offered any practical insight id never have to post. I stated the differences I experienced,
I even gave a reasons that they may exist, and way to qualify these differences for ourselves in our own gardens


the relative factor I may not have put together logically for the reading audience is that the method I suggest to use for med cropping lends ot self discovery via trials of many of these debates.

Since the med cropping i suggest is container based it should be a no simple no brainer for any growers to set up single coco or DWC bucket and do trials, hydro vs soil. My simple suggestion for here was to add a known set of bacteria that are hydro compatible. You can then do trials with and without, side by side. apples to apples in all accords but where the roots are.


:: opens the door to the gravitron, lets everyone off

 

[headband 707]

my life has been trail and error, no more please lol

my life has been trail and error, no more please lol

well whats in my heart means absolute shit in regards to growing and if my logic fails ill be glad to admit it. What matters is the understanding of the "big picture", but since its so hard for people to understand me I will try to summarize what I have been saying. Now understand too I took a detour to answer lazy man so I did deviate a bit

FIRST and FOREMOST

the simple fact that science hasn't been even able to replicate more than about 1% of the living bacteria that is found in the living soil in a laboratory. I do not believe in one instance that many of these discussion are "beyond" qualification. Micro-biology is still in it infancy, let alone rhizosphere interactions.

So before I continue to confuse let me extract this point: The answer to taste may be related nutritional uptake which is facilitated by bacteria

Now this is not the only one dynamic involved. The second factor to be considered is what I am calling hydro-dynamics. Hydro Dynamics, the perfect balance of air and water, when coupled with a sound nutritional program does give very aggressive growth rates. Now i tend to deviate here because in the big picture this can be misconstrued as hydro is superior and that is not what i am saying. For the sake of continuity I will continue on the path of hydro-dynamics and its effect on taste and smell.

In my hydro grows smell was as much a factor if not more so because the aggressive metabolism and a lack of slack grow times. the :tightness: comment regarding hydro struck me, because it does have some possible bearing of truth. Having run the same cut for close to a decade and run it many time in water and soil, it made me consider what is the :tight: differential.

Well lets define it. Sharper more defined core taste bet less complexity in tastes. Now where I look at the physical differences in grow style and the ramifications it has on the root physiology and the differences in bacterial population by virtue of my water grows at those times had no added bacteria I consider if these are possible factors to be considered.

I do not think it is as simple, and I also contend nutrient source can play a factor. In the grows I am referencing I used the same nutrients so there were fairly level playing fields. I did not do side by side taste tests. I made the migration from water for other reasons. If your adding a synthetic nutes that have only micros and macros, vs a soil amended with guano your going to have a completely different set of compounds available to the plant.

Lets be honest i said it pretty simple in a few posts, but then people say outrageous shit and I go off on tangents, my tangents still contain some real logic. Just like the plant root physiology posts and bacteria interactions that no one has commented on.

No matter who they are and how long they are here cant give any input on it, but in those simple examples I get shit talked and neg repped ??

AND ON TOP OF IT i get the condescending your heart is good but your making me dizzy?

I should have known, because I learned long ago that most people are so superficial in their gathering and analysis of information, that delivery alone can be the factor that they use to judge its merit. In my experience its a lack of understanding of the concepts at hand that cause the criticism on my delivery .

I think many people tell themselves they know it all because they have an inherent fear of not knowing

I mean why is it that some nobody two shit hobby grower from the east coast whose only learned from one source and absolutely one source

mel franks book

has some insight that no one else has shared ????

and then I post a simple method and grow and I get the that t cannot be replicate by the average grower

So what the fuck and I crazy genius like mother fucking van gogh? i sure as shit dont think so. I have no special capacities what so fucking ever

in fact i have neurological damage that ed to dysgraphia and dyslexia so please Sam obviously since its all me, its all the way I communicate and thats is all that matters please share with use your insight on the differentials of 'water' and 'air' roots and bacterial microbiology with marijuana and perhaps some simple trials like users at home can try?

Sam to completely honest if anyone had offered any practical insight id never have to post. I stated the differences I experienced,
I even gave a reasons that they may exist, and way to qualify these differences for ourselves in our own gardens


the relative factor I may not have put together logically for the reading audience is that the method I suggest to use for med cropping lends ot self discovery via trials of many of these debates.

Since the med cropping i suggest is container based it should be a no simple no brainer for any growers to set up single coco or DWC bucket and do trials, hydro vs soil. My simple suggestion for here was to add a known set of bacteria that are hydro compatible. You can then do trials with and without, side by side. apples to apples in all accords but where the roots are.


:: opens the door to the gravitron, lets everyone off

LOL LOL okay bro are you on crack lol lol FUCK LOL LOL !!!!YOUR BRAIN!!!!!
LOL
Well #1 everyone better stop using any animal shit that is the first thing I have to say about anything!! it's fucking dangerous and hold lots of pathogens you don't want !!!
Second the only way your going to know if your hypothisis holds true is a double blind bro you know this lol lol.. your one smart cookie.
I would think that it might be true for certain strains but that is just a guess.
I don't think the average grower knows as much as you do bro lol.. peace out Headband707

 

[one Q]

RNDZL- i have no problems understanding your posts. Readers just have to have an open mind about info. I see this stuff all the time in LIFE. People dont like how youre saying some shit so disregard WHAT youre saying... just keep flying over heads cause when you get deeper into things ppl have less shit to say, but some of us are still peeping game.

@ ppl being dicks- I never thought Id be upset at users on IC. Man, some of you guys are DICKS. Flat out. I wonder how many of you DICKs are just online personalities and are not dicks in real life or are just DICKs through and through...


*sorry for not contributing to the thread with my post but needed to let RNDZL that some of us are not DICKs and are willing to listen.

gets back on high-horse and rides over to pedestal for sitting

 

[headband 707]

RNDZL- i have no problems understanding your posts. Readers just have to have an open mind about info. I see this stuff all the time in LIFE. People dont like how youre saying some shit so disregard WHAT youre saying... just keep flying over heads cause when you get deeper into things ppl have less shit to say, but some of us are still peeping game.

@ ppl being dicks- I never thought Id be upset at users on IC. Man, some of you guys are DICKS. Flat out. I wonder how many of you DICKs are just online personalities and are not dicks in real life or are just DICKs through and through...


*sorry for not contributing to the thread with my post but needed to let RNDZL that some of us are not DICKs and are willing to listen.

gets back on high-horse and rides over to pedestal for sitting

I think it's easy to critcize if that is the right word at ppl or call them names when you don't understand where they are coming from.
Everyone is at a different level of growing and a different level of intelligents and different envirorments etc. Money is also a hugh factor and of course experince would play a roll all these things considered. What works in my place my not work in yours . I may not have the exact same material as you i.e. the same coco mixture so we might be arguing about the same thing and not even know it. So pointing fingers and arguing about grows is a complete waste of time lol IMVHO LOL peace out Headband707

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Sorry I can't because looking back, it didn't say what I thought. I was looking at last years "World Drug Report" from the UN



Source

[Although I'll say now that I've no intentions of getting into a pissing match with any outdoor growers. If you've got a problem with that take it up with the UN.]

Good because the UN also said Cannabis makes you more likely to go crazy, if you want to start believing what they say.....

-SamS

 

[headband 707]

Thanks you UN

Thanks you UN

Good because the UN also said Cannabis makes you more likely to go crazy, if you want to start believing what they say.....

-SamS

This is why I'm crazy?? it's the bud lol holy shit Thanks UN..and Sam the Skunkman

 

[RNDZL]

Quote:

Originally Posted by superultramega
You can gather data and actually analyze it rather than get blazed and pontificate. We left Aristotle's method behind for a reason.

thanks for proving me right, it all started with Aristotle who knew there was more to biological life than meets the eye
, thankfully he was confident enough in his own observations to remain steadfast on his observations WHICH WERE CONTRARY TO THE MAIN STREAM

notice we were not even able to view micro organisms until the 1600's

case in point is I posted clinical scientific results of the bacterium that are using in marijuana horticulture to show that instead of controlling the environmental you can use bacteria to control the plants

its one of the benefits organic gardeners have enjoyed over the years


A Brief History of Microbiology

Development of microscopy:

Aristotle (384-322) and others believed that living organisms could develop from non-living materials.

1590: Hans and Zacharias Janssen (Dutch lens grinders) mounted two lenses in a tube to produce the first compound microscope.

1660: Robert Hooke (1635-1703) published "Micrographia", containing drawings and detailed observations of biological materials made with the best compound microscope and illumination system of the time.

1676: Anton van Leeuwenhoek (1632-1723) was the first person to observe microorganisms.

1883: Carl Zeiss and Ernst Abbe pioneered developments in microscopy (such as immersion lenses and apochromatic lenses which reduce chromatic aberration) which perist until the present day.

1931: Ernst Ruska constructed the first electron microscope.


BTW you might want to close your zipper your genius is showing

 

[RNDZL]

in the words of the late great frank zappa

"you cant have progress without deviation form the norm"

 

[headband 707]

They are able to reproduce this in the lab

They are able to reproduce this in the lab

As far as bacteria they can infact replicate this in the lab it's the transport of this they are having a hard time with but this is still being done . This is the foundation of Mycorrhizae afterall peace out Headband707

 

[RNDZL]

Dont go, yours is the only post I enjoyed reading.

How is it people react to flamers, but when a voice of reason, and truth chimes in, no one cares?



I lold when I saw his response to employing the scientific method was to post a link.

i said to run trial side by side and gave instructions for a base method and a couple of ez suggestions for an alternative trial

i even sourced the aqueous bateria that are both hydro and soil compatible so you could duplicate the same trial without a microscope or lab equipment

but hey if i am wrong and you understand the voice of reason counter my hypothesis regarding the effects of microbial life in the rhizosphere and root physiology and its possible influence on hydro taste and I will gladly delete my account to satisfy the world

its called put up or shut up

none of you has any input regarding the biology of the plant itself but you sure as shit your using reasonable thought

 

[Lazyman]

I'll admit to being a bit of a skeptic when it comes to the various teas and organic methods, because I doubt very much most of the big organic fans have a microscope and plate their own brews. If you can't see it's working at that level, it's not working, right?

I mean, who's to say that tea didn't die 3 days ago (or never lived) and the plant is just responding to the nutrients, water and acids in the brew? To say the tea is full of biogicals and made the difference is kinda dishonest without verifying it with a scope first, isn't it?

Cannabis is a pretty ordinary C3 plant, not much unique about a flowering annual except the capitate-stalked trichome.

 

[headband 707]

Although yes it would be a very hard intense study to get into the microbical world and out of my scope doesn't mean I'm not interested in reading it.
I actually agree with everything that RN has said even though we use different mediums.. Not getting where he is mad of freaked out I must be stoned lol lol.. he sound normal to me.. peace out Headband707

 

[headband 707]

Education is surely the key

Education is surely the key

I'll admit to being a bit of a skeptic when it comes to the various teas and organic methods, because I doubt very much most of the big organic fans have a microscope and plate their own brews. If you can't see it's working at that level, it's not working, right?

I mean, who's to say that tea didn't die 3 days ago (or never lived) and the plant is just responding to the nutrients, water and acids in the brew? To say the tea is full of biogicals and made the difference is kinda dishonest without verifying it with a scope first, isn't it?

Cannabis is a pretty ordinary C3 plant, not much unique about a flowering annual except the capitate-stalked trichome.

Okay I agree with this LOL although I do know it works lol I think they are going to take advantage of ppl with this shit just like they do with the nutes and how are you going to know? EDUCATION LOL peace out Headband707

 

[RNDZL]

I'll admit to being a bit of a skeptic when it comes to the various teas and organic methods, because I doubt very much most of the big organic fans have a microscope and plate their own brews. If you can't see it's working at that level, it's not working, right?

I mean, who's to say that tea didn't die 3 days ago (or never lived) and the plant is just responding to the nutrients, water and acids in the brew? To say the tea is full of biogicals and made the difference is kinda dishonest without verifying it with a scope first, isn't it?

Cannabis is a pretty ordinary C3 plant, not much unique about a flowering annual except the capitate-stalked trichome.

you hit the nail on the head

the traditional applicaiton of organics is not scientific and its much harder to approach anyhting of this scope without

that is why I love hybrid cause you are simply adding the elements you feel will make a differential and observing

I never try new tech with universal abandon. I do pilots and trials.

the one reason I come off so obtuse and abstract is I am trying to evoke the same out the box thinking

i don think people should adopt any new concept or idea with abandon

its new emerging science being suggested, and our market commands the profit to justify the pains of research and development of these solutions even before some of the mature agricultural markets

i liken the place and time to the 80s microcomputer movement

things back then gained momentum so quickly the educational system wasn't even geared for it

being progressive here and now will pay exponential dividends down the road

 

[RNDZL]

it also makes sense to proactively regulate ourselves instead of giving the government the job

 

[one Q]

OH, and RZNDL can you just PM me the top micoBennis for hydro and Ill do some research. Ideally ones that can be used in conjuction with Pureblend or Soul Synthetics. I like the whole Refined Salts add Organic Additives for boost idea.

 

[RNDZL]

for bacteria sources that work in hydroponics that I have tried there are


nutrilife - organic

Bacillus megaterium 37,000/g
Bacillus subtilis 40,000/g
Pseudomonas fluorescens VI 1,400,000/g

botanicare aquashield (do not know if it is organic or not)

Bacillis Subtillis,
Paenibacillus Polymxa,
Bacillus Circulans and
Bacillus Amyloiquefaciens

these are not the traditional plant success or myco applications microbial package

not saying other probiotic solutions aren't out there or better.

One interesting thing to note is most of aquashields bacteria have had recent interesting discoveries regarding microbial interactions

I think this is why they were chosen by botanicare

most of the research you need to pay to access completely

 

[Xtensity]

If anyone was still wondering 'why' exactly hydro produced bigger yields and more potent buds, it's pretty basic to understand, which I thought everyone knew why.

Now I am by no means an expert when it comes to growing, I know a little, but no expert; this here is mainly from deductive reasoning along with listening to other growers ideas and reasons.

Plants don't have to put much energy or resources into production of roots in search for nutrients. This same concept goes towards the seed production limiting potency. Energy that goes to seed production has to come from somewhere and the Energy that would originally go into root production has to go somewhere. It's scientific common sense imo, even though it's not an in-depth explanation, the gist is easy to understand.


@RNDZL

I have no problem with the way your post are layed out, but understanding basic grammar is not conforming to society, basic grammar is essential for language. I can understand your post, but it would be easy for everyone if it wasn't all spaced out all over the place . About your comment on education and the societal paradigm or whatever you mentioned; In school they do not teach you how to think, they given you knowledge and show you how to memorize, not how to fathom a concept and think independently.

Weed isn't a weed. Weed is the flower/buds from the Cannabis Plant. Weeds grow rampant and are usually a pain in the ass to get rid of because it comes back on it's own, Cannabis is the opposite of this. When they destroy Cannabis fields 100 more plants don't appear, people go out and make an effort to grow in most cases. It's a plant, a highly evolved one at that, not a weed; Cannabis is FAR from a weed.

As for education of Chemistry, I can vouch and say that even minimal knowledge of Chemistry can aid you in growing. Just understanding why certain elements and compounds react in certain ways can help you select better nutrients. Knowing how the plants handle these various elements is also cruicial. Rarely is pure nitrogen, phosphorus, etc put into nutrients; most often the fertilizers are compounds that can dilver these nutrients when broken down. Some of these nutrients are harder to break down, cheaper to make, etc. There was evidence of this, which I am afraid I don't have the link for anymore; it was in a post on The Gardens Cure forum that discussed the nitrogen compounds in cheap homedepot fertilizers versus more expensive fertilizers.

That's just a minor relation of how knowledge in Chemistry can help you in growing, let alone life. It's important, in my opinion, to know why your plants react in certain ways; it's important to know why certain PH levels lock out certain elements and compounds, etc. I could provide tons of examples of how growers can benefit from chemistry knowledge. Understanding the chemistry of why things happen help with logically deducting a viable solution.