do you really loose flavor in hydro ???

[RNDZL]

your first contribution was rather well written, your latter ones are very scattered rants, dont take it to seriously

i do because

A) huge diversion

B) its not a debate THATS EVEN HAD ANY POINTS THAT ARE VALID

yes there are differences, but the non-quantifiable remarks are painting a picture that cannot be qualified

and because we sit on the cutting edge of this type of tech (no other agriculture is worth the return) we have the most real data to work with come to some solid conclusions

i like smoke alot of pot and have fun but i take growing seriously


here is the big differnce hydro vs non hydro

many hydro systems create water roots (roots with far less hairs)

root biology dictates that hairs on roots add a a tremendous amount of surface area for mineral uptake

the differential with water roots is the make up the distance in length and adapt to a regulated flow of nutrient

ime hydro is not a more efficient way to grow

its just far EASIER way to get optimal results in small scale closed environments over the short term

hydro system are so easy to tune a level of nutrient that the plant readily absorbs the nutrients necessary for vigorous growth

small scale closed environments are worth building and fairly easy to maintain and at the value of pot its worth it

I say short term., because over the long term you have to balance your gains to loses due to power failure, pathogens ect.

BUT

does it really make it hydro taste or smell better?

i mean if we have to go down this road lets take it deeper down the rabbit hole or lets keep it on track

i do think how the plant is effected by nutrient uptake and relative root analysis is part of it

as well as is what are you feeding it, this too is also relative

not whats better as far as yield ect

 

[one Q]

This is nuts!

Recently I somked two ppl out in two different cities a few months apart, both being all organic heads. Bla Bla Bla about Cali weed and all that dumb, "im moving to Co to get my smoke on" shit...

They hit a bowl of hydro, LUCAS slightly adjusted to lower N as flowering progressed, Ciesel (PD99) and was all about how he can get his hands on "the best herb he's ever tasted."

Now I know this is a common thing around here, where ppl think your pot is "DA BEST"

I also had another dude doing the same Jive Talk about how he gets 'the best herb in his city' before hitting it, then he STFU after hitting my bag. But wouldnt give me props on my connect, saying it was pretty good... but wouldnt put the pipe down... lol

So in my limited exp, you dont loose flavor... you tighten it. It gets so tight it whistles.

 

[El Toker]

So in my limited exp, you dont loose flavor... you tighten it. It gets so tight it whistles.

I don't agree, I think that there's no significant difference in taste and claims that there is are based on a combination of wishful thinking and something like a placebo effect. Frankly, I think there's a lot of bollocks talked about taste as people convince themselves they are connoisseurs. As it's the most subjective, it's also the most argued about. If someone thinks that "organic" weed specially fed with B vitamins is going to taste better, then it will, and nothing will convince them otherwise.

I and most of my friends have been smoking cannabis for decades, the quality is judged by one criteria only, that is how good the hit is. If I want to taste something nice, I'll eat chocolate.

Yield on the other hand is easily quantifiable and anyone who's done a side by side grow knows that hydro wins by a huge margin. I question the sanity/honesty of anyone who argues against that.

The strength of the high is less easy to quantify, but I have come across real research that indicates greater potency for weed grown in hydro. You certainly don't loose potency.

In short, if you want something that tastes nice, try cream cakes. If you want the largest possible volume of high potency weed you can get out of a fixed area, use hydro.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

The strength of the high is less easy to quantify, but I have come across real research that indicates greater potency for weed grown in hydro. You certainly don't loose potency.

Can you please list the reference to the research?
-SamS

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

"Can you please list the reference to the research?
-SamS"

I wanna see that too....

 

[Eli Bloom]

I think that perhaps the majority of soil grown weed may taste better than the majority of hydro grown weed because hydro requires a lot more attention to grow properly...i've grown both hydro and soil over the years and i've grown some excellent tasting hydro by providing the right food for the plants when they need it, making sure the leaves are yellowed up by harvest time, and giving a good cure...same is true for my dirt growing. also, in my hydro grows i was using GH 3 part and i had people that "only smoke organic" or "can taste the difference between organic and chem" and they loved it and could never know the difference. i think that more often than not quality comes down to how well a finished product was grown and cured and less about medium. clearly there are benefits to both and it's up to the grower to decide which system works best for them.

 

[El Toker]

Can you please list the reference to the research?
-SamS

Sorry I can't because looking back, it didn't say what I thought. I was looking at last years "World Drug Report" from the UN

Intensive indoor cultivation of female plants and clones, grown under artificial light, often without soil (using hydroponic cultivation) and with optimized cultivation conditions, produces cannabis of a consistently higher potency.

Source

[Although I'll say now that I've no intentions of getting into a pissing match with any outdoor growers. If you've got a problem with that take it up with the UN.]

 

[Lazyman]

Ok I bit my tongue through six pages, but I just had to poke at RNDZL once more (sorry buddy, I can't resist!)

Earlier you said you stopped using hydro because the growth rate was too aggressive for you, you also mentioned:

(with hydro )

Its just far EASIER way to get optimal results in small scale closed environments over the short term

hydro system are so easy to tune a level of nutrient that the plant readily absorbs the nutrients necessary for vigorous growth

small scale closed environments are worth building and fairly easy to maintain and at the value of pot its worth it

I say short term., because over the long term you have to balance your gains to loses due to power failure, pathogens ect.

So for an indoor cash-cropper (obviously looking for high yields and max crops per year) , would you recommend growing with hydro or organics?

 

[RNDZL]

Ok I bit my tongue through six pages, but I just had to poke at RNDZL once more (sorry buddy, I can't resist!)

Earlier you said you stopped using hydro because the growth rate was too aggressive for you, you also mentioned:

(with hydro )

So for an indoor cash-cropper (obviously looking for high yields and max crops per year) , would you recommend growing with hydro or organics?

excellent question and to be completely honest there are many variables to be ask before I can answer

IF you were to ask me how to bootstrap a medical grow from scratch with little resource and in an illegal place i would give a much different answer than if you were say legal provider with tons of resources

and really the biggest factor is the gardener

now i stopped hydro cause it was so aggressive, went to soil, got my soil my going as fast and then incorporated some organics, its an ongoing experience but even in the beginning I knew that although I had learned one tech and succeed that it was not the only method

I did not get this experience in a few short years

After YEARS of researching, stacking seeds form every bag and doing diligent research I grew with GH straight up with NO EXPECTATIONS

i really wanted to approach this differently

now some 20 years later, im still learning as if I just got here

its why I hate to say any way is the best, the truth is there is a most relative method

that said I think the value add past being an illegal community for the most part is that we are more progressive than the computer industry was in the 80s

the lack of regulation and standards is a breeding ground for innovations

I dont like any method because they are all have some wonderful tenants in their own right.

What really kills me (and not directed at anyone in particular) is that sharing our comparative experience becomes a point of contention between our members instead of a incubation center for some crazy ass innovations sharing good times and experiences or perhaps just being understood by someone who might get it

I got to be honest I really love any grower who is passionate about weed who care if it is bagseed in a cfl in a pc case passion is passion

but it becomes every more frustrating to have to filter through inflammatory buzz kill stuff to get to some real insanely solid information that does exist

many people dont share information that they worked hard to discover, especially the ones who have done it successfully well before the "gold rush"

maybe i am really fucking naive but i never imagined pot heads being so fucking dramatic

 

[RNDZL]

Ok I bit my tongue through six pages, but I just had to poke at RNDZL once more (sorry buddy, I can't resist!)

Earlier you said you stopped using hydro because the growth rate was too aggressive for you, you also mentioned:

(with hydro )

So for an indoor cash-cropper (obviously looking for high yields and max crops per year) , would you recommend growing with hydro or organics?

I do have a go to grow method for indoor cash cropping

its tried true and it is the basis for most of the success I have been able to most easily share to a novice grower (I am assuming the person asking is a novice or they would be asking something more particular)

Now this may be a bit lengthy because I will try to explain much of my reasoning behind these suggestions

Now before I jump into the "recipe" I have to state that while it may be argued form a botanical point of view, its really a hybrid method that is very flexible but please lets not get hung on classical definitions, but the concepts behind the ideas (from personal experience) I am suggesting

this is not a recipe to grow medical marijuana this is a recipe to use as a foundation for growing a medical marijuana while assuring margins and limiting liability, this is not a fly by night grow dreamt up but the simple system used by cashers to make consistent bankable monies

now there are some criteria that I personally find is mandatory when growing weed you intend to let others smoke and it heavily influences the grow style

Medical Cropping 101

many people first consider growing and lay out a grand plan based on research, they get up the proposed budget and they go out and start growing. I don't know about you, but I know many many people who ran out, bought all this gear, failed miserably and if it does not get the out of the game completely its the first mistake of many that start to push people to have to up the ante in an attempt to recoup losses

Now many people will say, for the proposed return there is plenty of room to justify the purchase. Well thats fine and dandy but in the real world there are too many unforeseen variables that can effect you, so this method is developed for this

When the economy took a dive lots of growers found the places they lived in need to be inspected for bank loans or some other unexpected byproduct, there are so many examples

OK then so whats the this method?

well before I tell you we need to state the benefits

A) require little experience

B) requires least environmental control

C) plants can be moved, short and long distances, while keeping them healthy and intact

D) best management of pest and disease

E) quicker maturation time if applied correctly

F) easiest to break down

G) lowest initial start up costs

H) will give best performance in an space that is not dialed in (which means you can drop , run and pull even if shit isn't perfect)

I) low maintenance

H) fault tolerant



there are many more but ill add em as I go

NOW at this juncture I could deviate into a couple directions but lets KISS and go with what I like to think as a baseline method in this region

before you get all upset at my choice remember its been proven and its used in a "hybrid" type method so its far more adaptable to other methods

IT IS NOT THE CUTTING EDGE, its not to possible get 2 gpw, its designed to give a stable consistent yield time and again, and typical here in this region this method is 2 p per 1000 2.5 and your golden, past that its real real strain specific or you need to change tech. The upside it is IME the easiest method to set up and get first solid pull form it

even in problem rooms, with no environmental control and stingy genes 1.5 lb per 1000 is basic

THE GOOD STUFF

ok i know you want to stfu and just say how to do it already but until you use them all you cant have a good idea to use for a comparison to which what the related intangible and tangible costs

Now the climate and conditions of where you live are important because I like to use as little equipment initially as possible

WHY, I like to run something in a space and see how it responds before I start investing. So many things can change, some unknown element, so its easiest to drop a simple system, work it to a return and spend your revenue tweaking as you test its potential for success

Lighting and Air

for me they are part of the same equation, now while horizontal lighting is not the most efficient it is the easiest to set up and deploy for success especially if you are not working with a wealth of experience

I do not like sealed rooms to start, more costly to start and take some time to tweak. I prefer 1000's with air cooled hoods using a carbon filter and fan to push negative pressure from the room through the filters and lights

in the winter heat is recycled to the house, in temperate months its ejected from the house. In the summer the lighting air circuit can be closed and cooled at the cost of an additional fan. Depending on how warm it is i might use the fan and filter to scrub the air or use it to vent the room from the air outside

in the NE this strategy works fairly well.

Now this is not to say that controlling the environment wont be more helpful, but at the cost, and at the time of build, its not smart to invest yet into environmental controls. Id want to see the space light, run in it, get a feel for any issues that might and most probably will need to be addressed

Now I have omitted AC/dehumidifier because in many instances plenty of ventilation is fine and the cheapest way to work yourself into a dialed in grow and because for a substrate I am not choosing water

straight hydro grows require a good dialed in room, with good controls to be successful, and you can get similar if not same results without investing all that money into adding a whole new environmental headache

aka high humidity


Underneath

this is why I suggest using pro mix with 30% perilite in 5 gal plus containers at 6-9 plants per light, but suggest you feed it nutrient solutions in water as if it were hydro

on of the biggest failures of hydro growers is that they don't realize that the water they are adding to the ambient air and the cost to control it have to yield that more in viable medicine to cover the increase of cost

now add to the fact that the humid air is providing a breeding ground for pathogens, a variable increased and treated unethically in most instances

avoiding costly disease prone enviroments has a value of the long term and espically in the beginning when trying to take a business and start it off and get it in the green

I see many people investing into cutting edge rooms and pulling less gpw than these simple setups and to me that is a clear sign putting the cart far above the horse.

now in promix, bigger plants in containers are self supporting and don't need to share root mats or trellises

they can be segregated and moved for maintenance and quarantine

the only reason imho promix grows fail to yield for some people is improper watering, and this is easy to correct. If you add perilite to 30% your going to increase the "speed: of the soil dramatically.

now at any point this system is scalable to DWC buckets and hydro can be incorporated once you start getting pulls under your belt and confidence that investing in this location is prudent over a longer term

I would not want to seal and set up a real boss closed environment for 6 months

if i had a location that I was going to be in consistently and i maxed my promix potential then I could justify the transition to DWC buckets and have a baseline of success

to use for comparing the benefit of the differential


TO BE CONTIUNUED - life calls


Nutrients and feed method

Method

this is a pivotal part here. I try not to label this technique because relative to cannabis imo its a "hybrid" method but I find it is the "safest" way to feed. does it offer the best of both worlds :: shrugs ::

it the most correctable way to feed and it will teach you how to feed plants off the cuff

ever plant in my gallery was fed what made sense at the time. Because I feed in the water, and I feed teas or synths I get pretty rapid response. This is where I like hydro technologies. the control of ionic availability

amended soils IMO requires more experience before you can run and have fail safe medical grade, not that they are not most excellent, but they are less fault tolerant

you fuck up feeding in your water promix cut with perilite by 30% trust me, easy to flush and not so fast that all the root mass is unrecoverable, esp if there are certain bacteria in the rhizospehre

now hat I feel is super attractive that you change promix to coco its hydro, you can go to soil for organic or hempy.big toke buckets.

It seems such a sound platform for starting a room or even starting growing medicines because many of these cutting edge technologies, when they fail the failure is catastrophic

alot of people put themselves in bad position and force to do shit like sell pot with PM cause they simply cant afford the loss

this system is designed to avoid that.

2 4k rooms with 24-26 big plants are easy enough to hand water

the benefit is that the intimacy with the plants will really help you prevent loss by seeing the precursors of it. The best guys here shit their pants when the smallest thing is off.. Best way to see that is to inspect every plant regardless, why not water at the same time


whats on the menu

here is a very very important part of the equation

Well there are some basics of plant nutrition that apply to every facet if growing and the basics are the micro and macro nutrients and the ratios of delivery

thankfully indoor horticulture has come a long way and a deep understanding of plant nutrition is not needed

HOWEVER a good understanding of what your choice are is very important, especially since some "magic" additives go a long way to adding to plant health, which in this instance add a good amount of value

I am trying very hard not to go off on a tangent, but i first need to state that there are more than one way to approach growing

you can control all factors of the environment and use just macro and micros and have a "naked" plant. If your environment falters you will find disease and pests can rapidly over come your crop. An important base line for med growing is consistency, more so than optimal GPW imo.

I found I can get great consistency from pot in an inconsistent environment using some simple bacteria, so much so that it negates the need for such robust environmental controls

this is why i am loath to say this method vs that method, because in reality many of the suggestions I am making are applicable to almost all tech

Now IMHO many nute lines are hybrid organic.sythetic lines that use the benefits of all to get better than marginal success

The benefits of these nute lines are sometimes so great that users have issues

lets take AN for example. Use their two part. then start adding the "performance enhancers". Many are biological components like bacteria and enzymes that make the nutrient more effective so the poor joe who goes ok im gonna add more ends u burning his shit because the relationship between the added efficiencies is mis understood

I think the most basic nutrient regime is the easiest to start with. I have used many and many are very effective. I prefer organic solutions but there are some benefits to a hybrid feeding system in new rooms and spaces and strains

and I found they work well to get a good medicinal product and a base line for plant performance

I am not stuck on brand, but for consistency and control I have one that works well and is as simple as it possibly gets

some of the components are interchangeable, once again many of the suggestions go beyond labels contents. There are consideration like how consistent is the company and their products. Are they niche marketed, are they readily available?


the first uses botanicare pure blend original bloom and grow, supplemented with the power series bloom and grow(targeted use will explain), hydroplex, calmag, aquashield and budcandy (i use carbo load black strap so i dont need cal mag but budcandy does the trick)

the power series has silica and it comes through fast so do the macros in it so I used to use it week 3 to tighten the branches and supplement cell strength as it goes to enter aggressive bud set, the added cellular health coupled with the bacteria in aquashield will fend your off from many pest and pathogens

the bacteria in aquashield also help with drought resistance and heat resistance lending to healthy growth in varying condition's

between the myco in the promix, the bacteria in aquasheild the aminos in hydroplex and bud candy, and the micros and traces in pure blend you have a decent nutrition base that is pretty hard to fuck up

now if you time your synth usage and just use the pure blend and carbs to feed it and dont let the promix go too, dry in the end you will get a bud that has many of same qualities of good organically grown weed with the ease and power of synths



ok so let me show you weeks 1 through 5 of this :system: at work in a new space, new seed run gear lights fans nutes and open room co2 (waits for the shit storm to stat here ) lol

pictures go from week 1 to 5 haven't got ones past it, ran ti for 8 and pulled

tried to squeeze in 20 runs in 20 weeks veg and all
mission was accomplished

 

[Lloyd_Christmas]

I've found with soil and hydro nugs I've smoked that the only flavor you lose with hydro is that organic-y "dirt" taste I get when using amended promix... I'm no master gardener but I think it all just comes down to preference...

 

[The King Adrock]

I like hydro nutes better!

 

[ugmjfarmer]

I had a hard time dialing in soil. My soil grows always tasted like hay. I picked a hydro system where you could not overwater and my stuff has tasted phenomenal since. experience has told me that the same clones will always come out tastier that way FOR ME. Your mileage and grower skill may vary BIG time.

 

[majortom9]

My daddy can whoop your daddy

My daddy can whoop your daddy

I really believe the entire debate is just like the ole ford vs chevy debate, both rock, to each his own

 

[Calimed]

Hydro can brighten and sharpen flavors in herbs n spices (Rosemary, Dill, Thyme, etc.), but lack the deep earthy robustness of soil. Both taste great, each just tastes slightly different, if you can even tell.

 

[unthing]

Hydro can brighten and sharpen flavors in herbs n spices (Rosemary, Dill, Thyme, etc.), but lack the deep earthy robustness of soil. Both taste great, each just tastes slightly different, if you can even tell.

This led me to a funny thought. Since roots can suck molecules too and there's a compound called geosmin in soil(s) which..well gives them the earthy soily smell..

 

[Miss Blunted]

I went from organic soil to chem in coco. I noticed that not using molasses messed with the taste, but we still grow some great tasting weed. We're gonna be back to using molasses this flower...it's great shit.

Edit: I agree with something Lloyd Christmas said....same taste, for us really...minus the "dirt" or earthy taste of growing in soil...

 

[RNDZL]

OK a quick synopsis of medical cash cropping 101

your grow is like a computer or a car, its as good as its weakest link

to maximize environmental conditions is not a wise business or grow investment INITIALLY because you need to tune in the medicine and the room, the macro environment to a baseline of optimal growth or all the money in enhancements wont be realized and your initial capital expense and initial liability is increased

not that these cutting edge technology doesn't work or have great benefit but if you never experience a baseline of healthy vigorous growth without you cannot do a comparative of the differential to ascertain value

the biggest and most important factor is that this method is resistant top fault like drought disease and.or the compromise of locations integrity

in the med game patients need medicine regardless, so lets establish a recipe for guaranteed baseline success and let all other enhancements come as we go further into the medical cropping experience

i have so much more to say above i have to take breaks to gather my thoughts

in a nut shell i reverse engineer everything in life so i do lack some fundamental writing skills but here im trying to get thoughts out and paint a picture of variables from sometimes painful experience

and im not guru please dont misinterpret that, but ive been around long enough and my observation skills are strong enough that I think i have some value to add on this a particular subject. ill be adding snaps so it will be pictorial also

 

[one Q]

^cant wait. Your posts here are a great help! Keep them coming... Breaking down the science is awesome.

 

[RNDZL]

growing medicine in "soil" is far easier to do successfully in a inadequate environmental factors than a tuned one

SO MUCH SO that as I get along in time I find these variables matter less when plant health optimal

here a 5x7 exactly as described, nothing but 1 filter 2 fans and 2 over sized lamps but it was what the person who needed meds has to work with

the space



one of the plants in the space seen above