do you really loose flavor in hydro ???

[RNDZL]

the last few posts, coupled with some of what I have observed in this trials done by academia in the botanical field is that the difference in grow types and the influence on flavor registers a difference of preference, but not other dynamics of taste or flavor like strength.

Please keep in mind outside feeding and growing tech that there are many factors that can skew results. Too much heat and other maladies can mute smells and leave the impression of inferior growing tech

Now in regards to flavor trials say with tomatoes it would seem that the preference is in accord with what you are accustomed to eating, so if you were raised on hydroponic tomatoes your more likely to prefer them

my honest feeling and experience is that you can pretty much replicate most of the components in the soil web and integrate them into hydro giving the new age gardener a best of breed approach

the organic gardeners are doing this already with aerated teas, which is giving them a way to accelerate soil biology so they don't have to let there soil mature and become active before use

I think as this happens, as both hydro and soil growers advance the respective playing fields will be leveled

I saw some absolutely fascination grows using this technique posted by big toke and he had hydro with bacteria well before I even understood it. I am not promoting any method, please don't misinterpret this, I am just pointing out that many of the scenarios I suggest have been conceptualized, designed, deployed and executed successfully well before I even considered them

pretty exciting stuff as I see it, and good for all.

 

[thefalsediviner]

I don't know where you are from but nearby the Salinas Valley nothing is grown Hydro, I see lettuce and tomatoes grown in the ground, also in the ground in greenhouses.
Here in the Netherlands tomatoes are mostly grown with rockwool, in greenhouses.
Of the 50,000 acres of hydro production worldwide only 1,200 are found in the USA, why do you think the amount is so low? If it is cheaper, faster, better, why not more commercial production? Are the farmers just stupid?
USDA says 309,607,601 acres of harvested cropland, the amount of hydro is so small as to be insignificant, why?
I can understand why some people unfamiliar with soil farming or for other reasons could prefer Hydro, but then why don't mainstream framers embrace Hydro if it so much better?
BTW, I don't buy any hydro veggies or fruit, I grow my own heirloom tomatoes in the earth, over 100 plants this year.
I want to see grains like rice, wheat, barley, millet, sorghum, oats, rye, even corn grown hydro, do you think it will be cheaper, better? I don't. What about trees that live for years?
Really I do think an experienced Hydro farmer can get great flavors, but I also think there is a strong temptation to make it grow faster, bigger, maybe at the expense of quality, if the emphasis is faster, bigger instead of searching for what is best.

-SamS

Something to note with farming in the U.S. is that the bulk of acreage farmed is part of our corporate welfare system. These farms are subsidized by tax dollars and there really is no incentive to change or do anything different. The gains in yield are made in the genetics lab and the American and Canadian public are the lab rats. Farming in America isn't as wholesome as we are lead to believe. I think that its hard to use American Farming as a bench mark for anything really.

TFD

 

[El Toker]

I'm not sure that hydro would have much advantage over soil for anything other than cannabis grown under a regime of prohibition.

The high value of the plant is an incentive to maximise yield per square foot as overheads are a small fraction of the final value of the product. I'm not so sure that the maths would work the same with a common vegetable like a potato.

With the economy of scale that goes with soil agriculture it's difficult to see how hydro would be cheaper even with the increased yields, because the overheads would be almost the same as the value of the crop.

 

[thefalsediviner]

TFD

 

[thal]

as per this UN document. If hydro bud is more potent it is safe to assume that the flavor and taste is more potent too. It is that way with all other fruits and vegetables. If a plant is healthier in environment A than in environment B then it will be more tasty/potent. Its absurdly simple.

http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/frontpage/2009/June/why-does-cannabis-potency-matter.html

Let's get one absurdly simple idea straight: The UN is a horrible source of of information regarding cannabis potency, grow methods, etc.

Comparing mexican schwag to the buds you busted out of a hydro setup isn't a fair comparison.

The UN has stated twice in the last decade that they wish to eradicate cannabis from the earth, everywhere. They will say anything and do anything to gain support. Do not trust ANYTHING they say. NOTHING.

 

[headband 707]

IMVHO

IMVHO

There is no mistaking a hothouse tomato from one that I have grown.. I would defy anyone to say they can't taste the diffence LOL LOL LOL !!! .. As far as a hydro gro lets face it there are hydro growers that just do this justice like no one else ..There is outdoor grows that are amazing in there areas . Indoor same but again IMVHO it's the cut your working with and the grower you have that brings the plant where it needs to be no matter what your working with you still need to dial in. peace out Headband707

 

[Lazyman]

up until trying to associate people who like organic with people who like to eat shit from assholes you had a fair point. At the point you debase the preference of those who like organics as shit eaters you lower the bar so much it's belligerent. It also shows the complete misunderstand of the mechanism of the biological world thats is a very important component of this board.

notice in the trial I listed that there is the differential character of taste and there is taste preference, not a superior taste.

i have no qualms with preference, but personally the idea of tasting something unnatural in my products of nature, chemicals don't appeal to me I use the natural component these chemical replicate

I think you're too "anti-chemicals" to see the sugar for the canes. Most of the sweetener products on the market are based on molasses, which is a popular product with the organic crowd too. In fact most of the sweetener products are molasses and amino acids, are those really so unnnatural? Expensive yes! But molasses from the store is cheap. It's sure a lot cheaper than Peruvian or Jamaican bat guano!

IMHO you are putting the cart before the horse, and putting far too much investment before establishing what the plants peak performance under average environmental conditions. To give an analogy its like putting nitrous on stock ford pinto

How so? It's pretty well-established that plants respond well to some carbs in their roots, and since the plant is breaking them down into simple sugars, shouldn't the plant get the easiest-to-digest sugars you can feed it?

Not that hydroponics can't up the ante for the MASSES, but many inferences can be made by the statement below.

This is the power of hydroponics is that it is easiest using our current technology and its pre existing application to get perfect plant results. This does not make it impossible to do in soil organically, just far more difficult in a standard agricultural market.

So, hydro gives perfect plant results more easily than soil? Not something I thought I'd see you admit.

One as this where the margins are so great, I feel commands the effort organics, but I see hybrid methods as being the happy medium

I think costs are factored into these discussions too often, as even the most expensive nute line (say $2K per crop) usually provides enough additional yield to be worthwhile. My goal is to find the most economical way to produce top-tier results.

However, ease of use, availability, and application rates of nutrients can have a significant impact. Organic hydro for example, is often fraught with problems in dosing, pH, settling, clogging, slime, etc. THAT flavor of hybrid IMHE isn't a particularly good one. The other way round (soil with hydro nutes) has worked well for me for years, and I continue to use it today.

So, I kinda agree with ya!

the follow discusses aggregate advantages of hydroponics INCLUDING EFFECT ON TASTE

take it with a grain of salt because its all relative, and i would be glad to discuss my opinion of such if you desire.


From: NUTRIENT UPTAKE AND DISTRIBUTION IN RELATION TO CROP QUALITY

Authors: L.C. Ho, P. Adams

Abstract:
Hydroponic systems are ideal for optimising root absorption by regulating the temperature, oxygen and EC of the nutrient solution and by adjusting the volume and nutrient composition of the feed. While crop yields have been greatly improved in hydroponics, further optimization of the root environment is needed to promote efficient nutrient uptake and reduce pollution by waste nutrients. For protected crops, the distribution of nutrients among organs via xylem and/or phloem conducting tissues has been optimised by manipulating the effects of growing environment on canopy transpiration and assimilate partitioning. In tomato, for instance, fruit production (number and size) and fruit quality (dry matter content, taste and the prevention of local nutrient deficiencies) have been improved by optimising the water relations, assimilate supply and nutrient status of the fruit. Further improvement in fruit quality relies on the optimisation of both shoot and root environment for water, assimilate and nutrient supplies to the developing fruit.

I think ToohighMF hit the nail on the head: Want that sweet soil taste? Use humics.

chems are not cheaper

I disagree, given the application rates of chemical nutes is very low, and powdered chems are VERY cheap, it's tough to beat the per gallon cost of chemical nutes. Even 2.2# packages of Koolbloom powder from the hydro store (huge markup) for $20 makes about 2000 gallons of mix. Hard to beat $.01 per gallon at the hydro store. Hell you can use GH Maxibloom powder at 8ml per gallon too, from seed to flower and grow great plants (Lucas in a powder.) Also cheap as hell.

and simple addition of bacteria make them more effective by up to 50% which mean you use half as much

Yeah I've used a product called Inoculaid that made that claim too, but I found my plants were happier with full feed rates. In other words it ended up being a fairly worthless and expensive additive.

thus the ascertainment that for you, because you are so technology versed is a very low cost way to get pro-biotic benefit form organics without the precursors, which in the raw for do pose a biological hazard for those not versed in their use

I'm not saying organics don't have their uses, but don't you think the average stoner is capable of getting better results with chems? The plant takes them up faster, with less effort, and with lower application rates than most organic nutes.

In other words, why wait for the soil web to digest it into a form usable by the plant, if you can just apply the usable form right now?

 

[Lazyman]

I want to ask all the hydro growers have you ever tasted fruit or vegetables grown with hydro that you thought were better then the best soil grown?

Yes, in fact most grocery store lettuce, arugula, tomatoes and strawberries are all hydroponic, and as evidenced on Penn and Tellers BULLSHIT (Organics) blind taste tests show people favoring hydro fruits to organics 9 to 1.

Does hydro also yield more then soil for vegetables and fruit?

Yes, in most cases the increase in yield is about 400%. (See the Organic Think tank thread for references.)

Why is it not the normal way to grow vegetables and fruit?

It is becoming more that way every day. The initial cost of hydro is one of the biggest obstacles, but with the outstanding performance, dramatically reduced space requirements and dramatically reduced water requirements, hydro is the future of food production. Many crops do not lend themselves well to hydroponic production (such as large fruit trees) but over time I'm confident systems will be developed for more foods.

If it tastes better, smells better, yields more and is faster, why are not all fruit and vegetables grown via hydro? Besides the carbon footprint.

They soon will be! As mentioned in the Organic Think tank thread, to grow all the tomatoes needed for Canada, you would need 22000 acres of organic farm. To grow the same amount in hydro requires just 1300 acres. With arable land disappearing at almost 34K square miles PER YEAR we need to improve our food production per acre, and hydro is the answer.

 

[headband 707]

Lazyman I think anyone who has worked with chemicals for year would do anything to move away from them.. thats just me.. peace out bro.. Headband707

 

[Lazyman]

Why is that HB? I've used chems for years (commercial indoor growing) and very rarely see anyone use organics indoors, at least on any kind of scale. Do you see a lot of big organic indoor ops?

 

[headband 707]

I guess this is my best answer:

I guess this is my best answer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesticide

 

[thefalsediviner]

It would not be overly cavalier for me to qualify the success of any grow operation through yield, potency and flavor.

I know that I can grow potent marijuana with a pleasant smooth flavor with synthetic nutrients in soil. I know I can achieve the same potency and flavor results with organic nutrients in soil, organic nutrients in hydroponics, and synthetic nutrients in hydroponics. I can achieve all of this indoors through environmental control, conservative nutrient use, and staying out of the way of my strains genetics.

When I consider environmental consequences into my thinking I know that I can create biodiversity and eliminate any concerns of nutrient leaching with all four methods. However both of these need to be considered in choosing which hydro system one uses, as all are not created equal in this instance.

If I consider pest and pathogen management, hydroponics with synthetic nutrients again wins with organic nutrient hydroponics a close second. The reasoning here is that the chances of having to intervene decrease with the soil omitted.

Now, when I factor yield into the equation hydroponics with synthetic nutrients wins hands down. Conversely, when I factor in the learning curve and the soil methods win.

When considering ease of use and convenience I can make arguments for all four methods. Moreover, with every method I can make an argument that they can all be really successful.

This train-wreck of a thread turned out to be a good ride after all and I surely learned some things. Thanks a lot everyone.

TFD

 

[10k]

First I agree that regardless of the method used, both methods are capable of producing Cannabis that the growers say are the best flavor. If you think it is best for you it is hard to argue with that.
I admit I favor bio-dynamic organic in the ground, and have for over 40 years.
I want to ask all the hydro growers have you ever tasted fruit or vegetables grown with hydro that you thought were better then the best soil grown? Does hydro also yield more then soil for vegetables and fruit? Why is it not the normal way to grow vegetables and fruit? If it tastes better, smells better, yields more and is faster, why are not all fruit and vegetables grown via hydro? Besides the carbon footprint.

-SamS

Good points Sam.
I also see what you're saying about a nice tasty organic tomato, it's just like nature intended. But hydroponic food production is not going away. Eventually, if it hasn't happened already, hydroponic greenhouse food production will be the standard. There are well done hydroponic vegetables that would stand on their own in a side by side blind taste test. I do feel a lot of the flavor people rave about in organic vegetables is more psychological than taste bud based.

But if we're going to drag the carbon footprint into the equation, nothing beats the overall water conservation of Aquaponics. I believe aquaponics represents the wave of the future for "earth friendly" organic vegetable and food production when it comes to considering water use and it's overall carbon footprint.

Aquaponics is THE hydroponic method that is the most earth friendly, uses the least water in total and produces some of the most tastiest organic vegetables to be found. It's organic hydroponics in it's purest form, and it's done OUTDOORS to boot !

Some of these farmers use it to it's fullest potential taking advantage of it's symbiosis with nature to produce excellent fish and or shrimp as a side benefit.
It's not only the lettuce and fish farmers that are doing it outdoors, many people are having great success right in their own backyards growing their own veggies and consumable fish, while saving tons on their water bill as compared to a normal back yard veggie garden.

It will be a while, but aquaponics is not going away nor is it a fad, it is just beginning to take hold worldwide.
It is being taught in schools and colleges all over the world right now.

In Aquaponic cannabis growing the rewards can be just as great, producing some of the tastiest and smoothest smoking buds I have ever smoked.
I'm sure most people who have also tried Aquaponic bud would also agree.
Have you tried any yet Sam?

 

[Snype]

I usually grow hydroponically in Ebb and flow trays but I always have my plants on the side in Fox Farm Ocean Forest for the head. The flavors are very different to me and I smoke the soiled plants. The hydro plants yield a lot more though and that is why I mainly do hydro.

 

[superultramega]

I usually grow hydroponically in Ebb and flow trays but I always have my plants on the side in Fox Farm Ocean Forest for the head. The flavors are very different to me and I smoke the soiled plants. The hydro plants yield a lot more though and that is why I mainly do hydro.

Now that is interesting. Do you cure both the same, or like me, give your personal a little more care?

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

In Aquaponic cannabis growing the rewards can be just as great, producing some of the tastiest and smoothest smoking buds I have ever smoked.
I'm sure most people who have also tried Aquaponic bud would also agree.
Have you tried any yet Sam?

Yes I have, but as you may know I am not a bud smoker, I only smoke resin, but I can taste the difference normally of indoor under lights hydro or outdoors in the soil. That said you can screw up either way of growing with to much fertilizers in my experience. I like plants that run out of fertilizers and yellow out by the end of flowering, with soil growing that is pretty easy to do. You may get less yield but the taste is more complex and intense in my experience.

-SamS

 

[love?]

A great deal of what you buy in the produce section of your grocery store is hydroponically grown. The farm grown vegetables are not the quality to be sold as fresh produce. They go into other prepared foods. Tomatoes and lettuce are prime examples of this.

Well, last winter I bought a cucumber from the grocery store that was hydro grown under HPS lights.

It tasted like shit and cost over 2 euros!!!

 

[Snype]

Now that is interesting. Do you cure both the same, or like me, give your personal a little more care?

Yeah I cure them both the same. It's very hard for me to explain this but I'll try. I can even tell the difference in the smells and the flavors. Don't get me wrong though, this doesn't mean that hydro has no smell and flavor cause it does but the soil has more of an earthy smell and taste to it. I've grown the same strains side by side with clones from the same moms and see it most of the time but I believe it may depend on the strain. I clearly remember this G13xHashPlant that I was growing in 1999 in hydro and in soil at the same time side by side and I couldn't believe how different the flavors were. I froze pounds of that harvest for many years to hold on to in half ounce increments but my house got broken into and I lost all my gems in the freezer. The hydro versions yielded so much more though and finished slightly faster. I dry and cure my trees differently depending on how much weight I have. If I have some trees on the side and it's around a half pound or less then I hang it up for a couple days and then dry it in a paper bag so it doesn't try to fast. It all depends on the weather and conditions to how I dry and cure.

 

[superultramega]

Well, last winter I bought a cucumber from the grocery store that was hydro grown under HPS lights.

It tasted like shit and cost over 2 euros!!!

great story.

 

[Snype]

That's a good point about the cucumbers! I can't stand hydroponic tomatos at the grocery store but the hydroponic avacados aren't too bad.