How many plants must you select from to not be a "hack"

[arcticsun]

Well I currently have 4 different unrelated strains showing the exact same mutation in over 20 different plants.

Makes me wonder you know!! Seeing as these are leaf mutation adaptions where the leaf seems to want to grow bigger or with more fingers then there is room for.


This is strange to me you know, since I started off these plants from seedling stage under very strong hps wattage.


Im pretty confident that these mutations is a result of the plants trying to adapt to the very strong light.


Your conclusion is that 40% of my plants are showing the same mutations, and this is coincidental...



Thanks bro im pretty confident on who has it backwards here.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

That is not a mutation.

You have 4 unrelated strains that suffered the same damaging environment.

You do have it backwards and do not appear to understand what senescence is or what mutation is.



Mutated does not mean "odd looking"... there are lots of causes for odd looking leaves that do not involve genetic changes.

 

[arcticsun]

can I have a link btw? tnx

 

[Justa6655321]

Some of my favorite and best plants are bastards that i've grown from seed

I am a true hack

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Very minor changes in genome make for major differences in the organism.

Hell, your own DNA is 98% identical to Chimp DNA. That 2% difference is what makes you 100% human and not a chimp.
Homology between human and Canine is 85%.

If cannabis plants were mutating their genome as often as some people think it does, then wouldn't there be completely new species emerging all the time? How long do you think a plant that mutates every time it is stressed takes to accumulate a 2% change?

 

[arcticsun]

That is not a mutation.

You have 4 unrelated strains that suffered the same damaging environment.

You do have it backwards and do not appear to understand what senescence is or what mutation is.

My apologies for taking your time then, but I do want to understand so if you may be so kind as to explain the general principle that applies when an organism takes a form so I may relate to it correctly.

Thanks bro

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

can I have a link btw? tnx

It'd be better for you to use google on the phrase "Senescence caused mutation" and look for your self.

You might also look into "epigenetic response"

 

[DocLeaf]

We think less than x9 plants is "chain-sawing" ,, unless there is a clone involved.. cause then the numbers can be much lower.. lol

May be the question should be "From which plants must you select to not be a "hack"? Which would leave an extremely limited field of spankly looking genetics to play with. Modern genetics although inbred are stable to certain traits, like yield to height ratios and flavour/quality over leaf to calyx,, flowering times,, and so on...

The way we see it,, (as breeders), is that we breed so others can grow and perhaps use our lines as breeding stock,, and there's absolutely no harm or discredit in that... hacking or not,, once bought or donated,,, you then own them,, its only when stealing is involved that folks are "hacking" really IMO. Otherwise do ya thing!!!

One love!

 

[arcticsun]

listen GFH, im confused mate..


In very short simple words, my understanding is that mutations occurs as a result of signals sent from a dieing cell to the new growth.


Im understanding you as saying mutations are completely random.


Im confused regarding as to what exactly you are actually criticizing me for not understanding?

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

In very short simple words, my understanding is that mutations occurs as a result of signals sent from a dieing cell to the new growth.

This is not the case. If you have evidence that this is how any or all mutations occur, please provide it.

The thing it appears as though you do not understand is mutation's relationship to senescence. I'm not criticizing you for that, but I am saying that your original assertion concerning senescence as the only source of mutation was dead wrong.

Mutations occur within a living cell which passes the mutation along when the cell divides. Organisms generally do not mutate themselves. Mutations which survive more than a cell division or two are fairly rare.

Senescence or biological aging is the change in the biology of an organism as it ages after its maturity. Such changes range from those affecting its cells and their function to that of the whole organism. There are a number of theories why senescence occurs including those that it is programmed by gene expression changes and that it is the accumulative damage of biological processes.

senescence is not universal, and senescence is not observed in single-celled organisms that reproduce through the process of cellular mitosis. Moreover, cellular senescence is not observed in many organisms, including perennial plants, sponges, corals, and lobsters.

Some cells do not age and are therefore described as being "biologically immortal." It is theorized by some that when it is discovered exactly what allows these cells, whether it be the result of telomere lengthening or not, to divide without limit that it will be possible to genetically alter other cells to have the same capability. It is further theorized that it will eventually be possible to genetically engineer all cells in the human body to have this capability by employing gene therapy and thereby stop or reverse aging, effectively making the entire organism potentially immortal.

 

[DocLeaf]

Mutations usually occur via chemical, stress, or pathogenic conditions/applications beyond the nexus of the genotype. However phenotypically,, over longer periods of time,, the genotype may alter genetically and mutate in specimen and/or in lineage to do strange things.

An example would be heavy inbreed Thai genetics (c1960-80) that display sexual mutation from the norm in many plants with hermaphroditic tendencies in lineage.

Otherwise obvious mutations are twisted leafs, stems, and dwarfism,, which is a less obvious form of mutation,, common in many poly-hybrids,, and worn out clones.

,, just 2 twigs

Hope this helps

 

[arcticsun]

thanks guys this is educational..

 

[Thundurkel]

That's what's up DocLeaf! I've been give a few limited release strains and that's what my breeding stock is going to come from to start out with. I have a bunch of Crystal Trident crosses with CT as the dad which is Afgooey x Sour D IBL so I'm gonna be searching for keeper males and females of course through the following strains made by Mini over at the Bay..


Urkle x CT
Blue Dream x CT
Blue Razz x CT
Afwreck x CT aka Crystal Throttle

All my first few batches of seeds when I make them are going to the Server Fund and donated as freebies and then I'll go from there when results come back from testers...

 

[arcticsun]

Thank you GFH for clearing me up, I think I have a better understanding now. I had cause and effect mixed up ofc..



I still think the environmental effect is a very important influence tho.

 

[arcticsun]

there are lots of causes for odd looking leaves that do not involve genetic changes.

Since I have odd looking leaves, what other causes could there be then genetic changes, which I presume means mutations..

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

I still think the environmental effect is a very important influence tho.

It absolutely is... on the health of the individual organism, and on the survivability of new mutations which crop up from time to time within a species.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Since I have odd looking leaves, what other causes could there be then genetic changes, which I presume means mutations..

Whirled or twisted leaves can result from both deficiency and pathogen. Think of the leaf's cells as bricks which are laid in a specific pattern, according to the blueprint. The pattern could be disrupted by interfering with the bricks as they are being made, or being laid, or by interfering with the bricklayer as he lays them, or by changing the blueprint.



Deficiency can make the bricks weak because they were missing ingredients. Deficiency can prevent the bricks from bonding together or staying in place, because the mortar is missing ingredients.

Pathogens can interfere with the bricks as they are being laid, or disrupt the mechanisms (bricklayers) which place the bricks according to the blueprint. or can reduce the Bricklayer's ability to read the blueprint properly.

Mutations rewrite the blueprint.

 

[arcticsun]

I guess the big question is tho, how important is it in relation to the breeders work. Are there certain climates that are unsuited and others that are significantly more suited for example if one wants to increase THC levels..


And I guess a "breeder" doesnt have to grow any plants by himself btw.. It could be someone lending advice to a farmer feks

 

[arcticsun]

Whirled or twisted leaves can result from both deficiency and pathogen. Think of the leaf's cells as bricks which are laid in a specific pattern, according to the blueprint. The pattern could be disrupted by interfering with the bricks as they are being made, or being laid, or by interfering with the bricklayer as he lays them, or by changing the blueprint.



Deficiency can make the bricks weak because they were missing ingredients. Deficiency can prevent the bricks from bonding together or staying in place, because the mortar is missing ingredients.

Pathogens can interfere with the bricks as they are being laid, or disrupt the mechanisms (bricklayers) which place the bricks according to the blueprint. or can reduce the Bricklayer's ability to read the blueprint properly.

Mutations rewrite the blueprint.

ah okok.. ic ic.. but you may have seen my plants, I keep a healthy garden. So its not deficiencies.. guaranteed, pathogens means some kind of disruptive disease or bacteria of sorts right? I doubt that strongly..

ok m8 thanks, I think we are looking at mutations here then.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

I guess the big question is tho, how important is it in relation to the breeders work. Are there certain climates that are unsuited and others that are significantly more suited for example if one wants to increase THC levels..


And I guess a "breeder" doesnt have to grow any plants by himself btw.. It could be someone lending advice to a farmer feks

Not very important... Other than the fact that the breeder needs to know how well the a particular plant performs in a particular climate to help with selecting toward specific goals.

There's nothing you're going to do to a mother plant to make her seed perform beyond their preprogramed genetic capabilities.

Breeding is all about making good selections.

What climate makes more thc is of infinitely more importance to the grower than the breeder.