How many plants must you select from to not be a "hack"

[arcticsun]

Mutations is a result of senescence, programmed habitat adaption following cell death.

Its not a process that occurs accidentally. You will not get an affy genotype mutation in any habitat!



I dont doubt mans ability to change forms, but I doubt its as significant as many will have it. We see that the fertile region of the Himalayas has more genetic diversity then most of the rest of the earth combined. I think we are overestimating mans influence and under estimating the nr 1 breeder of all, mother earth.

Dunno bro, to me it seems we got a pretty good boost of genetics coming out of America when the Afghan war started. Just speculation tho.. Could be coincidental..

 

[VerdantGreen]

mother earth doesnt select for THC potency though.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Mutations is a result of senescence, programmed habitat adaption following cell death.

Some mutation, you mean. There are many other specific stimuli which cause mutation.

There are several types of radiation which cause mutations
There are several chemicals which are mutagens
There are pathogens which are mutagens.

Its not a process that occurs accidentally. You will not get an affy genotype mutation in any habitat!

It is absolutely a process which occasionally occurs randomly.

The affy genotype is not the result of a single mutation.
It is the result of a very long drawn out process, during which small variations occur. Most of these variations are going to offer no advantage or will cause a disadvantage and will not propagate throughout the local gene pool. Occasionally a mutation will provide some edge over the non mutated genome, and will, over the course of several generations propagate throughout the local gene pool.

I could go on, but listening to a few freshman level biology lectures which are free to download on iTunes University, you'll learn a lot more than I care to explain here.

I dont doubt mans ability to change forms, but I doubt its as significant as many will have it. We see that the fertile region of the Himalayas has more genetic diversity then most of the rest of the earth combined. I think we are overestimating mans influence and under estimating the nr 1 breeder of all, mother earth.

Not underestimating in the least... Mother nature provided the traits man is selecting for....

Dunno bro, to me it seems we got a pretty good boost of genetics coming out of America when the Afghan war started. Just speculation tho.. Could be coincidental..

It is coincidental. The genetics coming out of the states have been being worked in the states for decades. If your idea that US cannabis would "degrade" without a constant influx of "fresh" genes is absurd. If that were the case all landrace cannabis in isolated areas would be "degraded", and only constant intentional hybridization could prevent it.

 

[arcticsun]

Yes she does.. Edit: this is a response to the statement that mother nature does not select for thc.. a post slipped in between here

Why The Caged Bird Sings - He's Stoned
Posted by CN Staff on October 28, 2004 at 14:25:52 PT
By J.D. Mullane
Source: Courier Times

The other day I was at a friend's house when I heard the family's parakeet, Cupcake, singing.

It wasn't the normal cheep-cheep-tweet-chirp you usually associate with parakeets.

It was robust. Lighthearted trills and long liquid warbles filled the room.

"That bird sounds like he's having a good day," I said. "Why is he so happy?"

"We bought songbird food and he's been singing ever since," my friend said. "We know why, too. My wife looked at the bird food and it's loaded with pot seeds."

"You mean your parakeet's stoned?"

"Pretty much."

It was hard to believe. I thought the government's war on drugs had curtailed, if not eliminated, such dark threats to innocents like Cupcake.

As everyone knows, pot is a "gateway" drug. If pot seeds are permitted in bird food, what's next for an addicted songbird? Poppy seeds? Catnip?

Think of the injuries this drug menace can cause, with bleary-eyed parakeets, canaries and finches falling backward from their perches, cracking their little skulls. Not that they would care.

Still, I was skeptical that the nation's songbird food supply contains pot seeds.

I called a few bird food distributors to find out. They seemed reluctant to comment.

"I don't know what you're talking about. There are no pot seeds in songbird food. I think you better find yourself another story," said a man who answered the phone at Birdsperch.com.

I went to Schults Bird Farm in Langhorne where, among myriad bird food mixes, I found one marked "Sterile Hemp Seed." Aha.

"It's sterile so if you try growing it, you won't get a pot plant," said employee Jerry Wilson.

Wilson doesn't believe hemp seed will get a bird stoned.

"We had an African Gray on hemp seeds. It didn't seem to make a difference in his personality at all. Even Prozac didn't change his personality," he said.


Meeghan Hall, a bird specialist who has worked at Schults for 11 years, said hemp seed calms a bird.

"Maybe it makes them happy or high, so that's why they sing," she said.

Actually, hemp seed, from which pot is grown, has been an ingredient in songbird food for decades, said Alan St. Pierre, spokesman for the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws.

"It's more than folklore that songbirds will pick out the hemp seeds more than other seeds from their food, in the wild as well. These seeds make birds very happy, so much so that birds known for their beautiful songs will sing much more," he said.

Since the "reefer madness" years of the 1930s, the federal government has tried to keep hemp seed from birds as part of its crackdown on illegal marijuana growing.

The bird seed lobby (yes, there is one) stepped forward and blocked it, telling Congress that birds would stop singing without the magical seed. Just three years ago, the feds tried another crackdown on commercial hemp seed, but lobbyists battled back, St. Pierre said.

Like Wilson, he doesn't believe songbirds can get stoned on hemp seed, since regulations require the seed to be rendered sterile prior to sale.

"The federal government really has taken the buzz out of bird seed. But maybe it's something else in the seed. The oil or something," he said.

I wonder.

I looked at Cupcake, who was on his perch, singing. He stopped and cocked his head at me.

I swear he had a silly stoner grin on his beak.

As I walked off, he launched into another long, happy liquid song.

J.D. Mullane's opinion column appears Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday.

Newshawk: Sukoi
Source: Bucks County Courier Times (PA)
Author: J.D. Mullane
Published: October 28, 2004
Copyright: 2004 Calkins Newspapers. Inc.
Contact: [email protected]


Website: http://www.phillyburbs.com/couriertimes/index.shtml

NORML
http://www.norml.org/

I could find more scientific references for you regarding stoned wild birds and how seeds are spread in the wild..


But this one is cute and funny hehehe...

 

[arcticsun]

If that were the case all landrace cannabis in isolated areas would be "degraded", and only constant intentional hybridization could prevent it.

I would rather say unless the habitat was positively reinforcing the traits one wished to select for.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

I don't think the birds select seeds from only the most potent buds. I would imagine once they've caught hold of the munchies, they're keen on every seed in sight. The fact that birds can get high does not indicate that the birds reject seeds from buds that do not get them high.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

I would rather say unless the habitat was positively reinforcing the traits one wished to select for.

Which can't occur on western soil?

I think that if the supply of fresh genetics to western breeders were cut, then we would see a rapid degeneration of western cannabis.

 

[arcticsun]

misunderstand me correctly tho, im not saying there are no suitable habitats for breeding good quality cannabis in America. So not all areas would experience a degeneration of the desired traits.

But in "general" ..

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

suggested reading:

With the dawn of agriculture, about 10,000 years ago, humans began modifying wild plants. Planting seeds from the most desirable plants is a way of choosing certain genetic traits over others. Although the transformations occurred over many centuries, virtually every cultivated species has been genetically modified from its wild form through classical plant-breeding techniques. The produce sold in markets today is very different from its wild progenitors.

Crop yields have risen dramatically since the advent of scientific crop selection about a century ago. Cross-breeding techniques improved the precision with which specific traits could be selected. Today, DNA sequencing provides new tools for understanding crop traits and for selecting desirable traits with even greater efficiency. In other words, the latest genetic engineering techniques often provide a better way to carry out many of the crop selections of the past.

In the following sections we explore the development of crops, using corn as an example.

Ancient Teosinte

Corn's ancestor did not have large ears. Instead, hard, nut-like kernels were distributed in small, feathery cobs over many tertiary branches.

Modern Corn (Maize)

Corn today comes in many varieties, all of which have ears that contain many soft kernels.

From Teosinte to Corn

The genes that control a number of specific traits have been identified.

For example, a gene on chromosome #1 causes the ears of corn to be big and to grow on a few short branches. In contrast, the ears of teosinte are scattered over many small branches.

A gene on the second chromosome causes more rows of kernels to grow, yielding more food per corn plant.

A gene on the fourth chromosome causes corn kernels to have small, soft casings. Teosinte kernels have much larger, harder kernel casings that make them hard to eat.

The goal of plant breeding, scientific crop selection, and modern genetic research is to increase crop yields and improve the quality of the food, feed, and fibers produced. Modern crops are dramatically more productive than wild plants, as the diagram demonstrates.

Acreage Required to Match Today's U.S. Corn Production
Today: Total U.S. corn production in 2002, excluding feed corn, was about 252 million tons from 69.3 million acres, which is 3.6 tons or 130 bushels per acre. This represents around 4% of the land area of the lower 48 states.



Teosinte: Modern experiments growing teosinte produced 0.28 tons per acre, so matching today's corn production would require 12.9 times the current acreage, or a total of 891 million acres. This represents around 47% of the land area of the lower 48 states.

The genes that govern many specific traits have been identified in the genome of maize (corn) and located along the plant's ten chromosomes. Just a few of these genes are shown here, yet they demonstrate how broadly the gene sequences in DNA affect an organism's appearance and health.

DNA sequencing provides new tools for understanding crop traits and for selecting desirable traits with greater efficiency.

The genes that govern many specific traits have been identified in the genome of maize (corn) and located along the plants ten chromosomes.

Just a few of these genes are included in this activity, yet they demonstrate how broadly the gene sequences in DNA affect an organism's appearance and health.

Below is a list of corn's ten chromosomes. Each chromosome contains genes that govern specific physical traits of corn.

Chromosome 1

lls1 Gene - Lethal Leaf Spot

A gene mutation creates lethal lesions. The affected leaf is shown on the left with a normal leaf on the right. Sunlight is required to make leaf lesions appear. The plant looks diseased, but no disease organism is present.

p1 Gene - Pericarp Color

The gene governs red pigment in the cob and outer casing of the kernels (pericarp). Variations are shown. The red candy stripe ears of corn sold in stores at Thanksgiving have a variation of this gene.

zb7 Gene - Zebra Crossbands

A gene mutation creates glossy seedlings with light green crossbands. The crossbands are due to cooler temperatures at night.

tb1 Gene - Teosinte Branched

One of the genes involved in the transformation of ancient teosinte into corn; a variation creates the extra stems and tassel like ear branches seen in teosinte.

Chromosome 2

mnl Gene - Miniature Seed

A gene mutation that creates small but structurally and functionally complete kernels vs. variable kernels are shown. The gene governs an enzyme involved in breaking sucrose down into glucose and fructose.

w3 Gene - White

The gene variation causes white seedlings. A normal seedling is shown behind and to the right. The gene blocks a chemical pathway that gives yellow and orange color to fruits and vegetables.

ch1 Gene - Chocolate Pericarp

The gene variation creates chocolate-colored kernel shells (pericarp)

Chromosome 3

cg1 Gene - Corngrass

A variation in this gene causes plants to have narrow leaves and extra stems. This mutant is often mistaken for a grassy weed in corn genetic nurseries.

vg1 Gene - Ragged Leaves

Plants with this mutation have defective tissues between veins of older leaves, causing holes and tearing.

a3 Gene - Anthrocyanin

A gene mutation creates intense purple pigmentation in leaves and other plant parts. Normal plants are green. The gene controls other genes and does not itself produce the pigment.

Chromosome 4

la1 Gene - Lazy Plant

A gene variation causes the plant to grow horizontally; it will break if straightened up.

su1 Gene - Sugary

A wrinkled, translucent kernels are sweet at the milky stage; dry, collapsed, angular, and brittle at mature stage. Most sweetcorn is sweet because of this gene.

tu1 Gene - Tunicate

Kernels are enclosed in long glumes and tassel glumes are large and coarse in Tu1 plants. A common name is "pod" corn.

Roundup Ready Gene - Herbicide Resistance

This inserted gene makes crops more resistant to broad-spectrum herbicides, reducing the quantity of various herbicides used.Roundup Ready corn treated with herbicides is shown on the left, untreated on the right.

Chromosome 5

bm1 Gene - Brown Midrib

The gene mutation causes brown pigment over the midsections of the leaf. A normal, green leaf is shown at right. The gene affects the composition of lignin, a cell wall constituent.

bt1 Gene - Brittle Endosperm

A gene mutation causes mature kernels to collapse and become brittle. The gene affects an enzyme bound to starch granules.

ys1 Gene - Yellow Stripe

A gene mutation causes an iron deficiency that leads to yellow tissues between leaf veins.

Chromosome 6

po1 Gene - Polymitotic

Sterile pollen in tassels result from a mutation on this gene. A normal male tassel is shown on the left; the po1 tassel on the right. This gene causes extra divisions in pollen that result in cells with varying numbers of chromosomes. The cells abort, which leads to sterility.

si1 Gene - Silky

Multiple silks in ears and sterile tassels result from a mutation of this gene.

sm1 Gene - Salmon Silks

The gene governs color variations in the ear silks. Bright salmon-colored silks are shown.

Chromosome 7

vs1 Gene - Rough Sheath

Plants with this mutation have rough sheaths and extreme disorganization where leaves separate from stems.

ij1 Gene - Lojap Striping

A mutation in this gene causes many variable white stripes, which can be seen on leaf margins.

Bt Gene - Pest Resistance

Bt crops are "transgenic" - they have been genetically engineered to increase resistance to pests and reduce the need for pesticides. The gene's location among the chromosomes varies from one strain to another. The Bt field is on the right in this comparison.

Chromosome 8

v16 Gene - Virescent

This gene mutation causes pale yellow seedlings that green rapidly to normal. The v16 seedling is shown on the left, with a normal seedling on the right. The yellow color of seedlings is a temperature effect that occurs when the ambient temperature is below 64º - 68ºF(18º - 20ºC).

j1 Gene - Japonica Striping

White stripes on the leaves are caused by a mutation in this gene. This gene has been used to study how leaves develop.

Chromosome 9

Dt1 Gene - Dotted

This gene variation causes colored dots on colorless kernels and purple sections on brown plants.

bz1 Gene - Bronze

The pale bronze kernels result from this gene mutation. Many features of maize genetics have been revealed using this gene.

Chromosome 10

cr4 Gene - Crinkly Leaf

The gene mutation leads to crinkly leafed seedlings and short plants. This trait is expressed in developing shoots, but not in mature leaves.

r1 Gene - Colored Variations in this gene sequence yield red or purple colors. The gene regulates pigment production in seed and plant. This gene has been used extensively to study gene structure, gene interactions, and gene expressions.

http://www.koshland-science-museum.org/exhibitdna/crops01.jsp

 

[arcticsun]

I don't think the birds select seeds from only the most potent buds. I would imagine once they've caught hold of the munchies, they're keen on every seed in sight. The fact that birds can get high does not indicate that the birds reject seeds from buds that do not get them high.

Ever had a cat and a syringe bush?


Its a comfortable conclusion to make, personally I dont care to spend a whole lot of time investigating whether birds actually can be proven to enjoy getting stoned or not.

My immediate guess, seeing as ive had a cat and a syringe bush, is that ohyes the bird likes getting stoned just like we do.


Ive seen enough studies done with drugs, rats monkeys you name it. However if you want to spend your time chasing that shadow to convince me otherwise pls go ahead. Ill put on some music and roll a fatty instead.

 

[biteme]

wow, look where this topic has gone from the original question of "how many plants....." which was answered in prompt fashion. listen to greatfulhead who is also level headed in these matters and answered correctly. do you folks realize how many hybrids out there that peeps pay big money for actually originated from that special cut being handed down? peace-biteme

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

The fact that birds can really really enjoy getting high does not indicate that the birds reject seeds from buds that do not get them high.

I have 4 cats and catnip. I have seen monkey's steal liquor. I have no doubt most species enjoy intoxication.

I only assert that man has more ability and more inclination to specifically select and isolate traits he likes.
birds may do it to some small degree, but being as how they don't selectively save seeds or plant crops in closely spaced rows from which next years seed will be specifically selected. Birds eat seeds, and the seeds they do not digest are passed in their shit, and some of them land somewhere where they can sprout and grow and reproduce. not nearly as efficient a selection method imho.

Man vastly influences the evolution of plants we select to cultivate.

 

[arcticsun]

Just because the birds does not reject the seeds that does not get them high, does not mean that they will not prefer the ones that do get them high. Follow the logic?

This is really not the debt I was hoping this discussion would take.

Thanks for the reading material btw, looks interesting ill spend some time on it.

 

[VerdantGreen]

Yes she does.. Edit: this is a response to the statement that mother nature does not select for thc.. a post slipped in between here





I could find more scientific references for you regarding stoned wild birds and how seeds are spread in the wild..


But this one is cute and funny hehehe...

erm, well if the birds were eating hemp seeds and spreading them then they are hardly selecting for high thc cannabis are they - because hemp is the opposite of drug cannabis when it comes to thc content. the maximum allowed content of thc in hemp seed is canada is 10 parts per million which is virtually zero anyway.

it's generally accepted that for every generation that mj isnt selected for potency, said potency goes down.

VG.

 

[tokinblackguy]

im no breeder by any means, but in response to the op's question, i think that all breeders/chuckers should start with an end goal. basically, you must decide what it is you want to end up with before you even start selecting. hacking 2 plants together is fine and dandy as long as they compliment each other and produce desired offspring. if not, then either work the line some more to produce an ibl that locks in the traits you want or select different parents and try again.

 

[arcticsun]

erm, well if the birds were eating hemp seeds and spreading them then they are hardly selecting for high thc cannabis are they - because hemp is the opposite of drug cannabis when it comes to thc content. the maximum allowed content of thc in hemp seed is canada is 10 parts per million which is virtually zero anyway.

it's generally accepted that for every generation that mj isnt selected for potency, said potency goes down.

VG.

Dont get hung up on the use of the word hemp seed in this article, as I mentioned its not a scientific article.

 

[GeneticsGoneMad]

" The numbers may shock you"

" The numbers may shock you"

Good question and here's My answer Ive been doing this thing for about 27 yrs I use 100+ per strain for Selection and have 18 diffrent gardens that I work with to develop New strains...why so many...
Well your first f1 series normally isnt stable until the third time you recross..so it take's a while if you are limited in your numbers..
This year I will have 1800 + and only 3 strains crossed each a little differently..out of all those... only 3 new strains will be developed
Ideally you select from the largest pool of plants same strain that you have selecting for traits you want...
I have one strain that is 26.782 % THC/CBD however not a solid nugget very bracketed her sis from another mom cross pollinated with a diffrent male indica stain is very tight but lost THC/CBD count
22.4 %
Bottom line is If you dont have a lab to test THC/CBD your just spinnin your wheels and making a nice flower without documentation your a hack...yes I have a lab...and we test other folks stuff as well
Regards

 

[arcticsun]

I only assert that man has more ability and more inclination to specifically select and isolate traits he likes.
birds may do it to some small degree,

Then birds yes, there are a couple of other creatures out there in the forests tho..

Man vastly influences the evolution of plants we select to cultivate.

Habitat acclimatization also vastly influences the evolution of plants man selects to cultivate.




Thank you btw, I think I will not partake in this discussion further, ive made a statement. I think ill rather be working with seeing with my own eyes how habitat changes form and behavior in organisms.

 

[VerdantGreen]

Dont get hung up on the use of the word hemp seed in this article, as I mentioned its not a scientific article.

not hung up on it at all, but it's unlikey that they would be using the seeds of high THC cannabis in bird seed rather than selling them for $100 a pack

it should also be noted that the seed characteristics apart from the embryo come entirely from the mother and therefore dont accurately reflect the genetics of the plant that will grow from it - is that scientific enough for you

cheers

VG

 

[Thundurkel]

HAHAHAH!!! WOW! I learn something new everyday here at ICMAG I didn't know that songbird seed mixes had hemp seed in them that's crazy! Leave nature be damn government if the birds eat it in nature how you gonna try and ban the shit!!!! I swear this country is so backwards!!!!