What's new

Development and Harvest Yields of Greenhouse Tomatoes in Six Orgnaic Growing Systems

mad librettist

mad librettist

Active member
Veteran
Dave Coulier said:
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=162442


Mad, Im getting a new growspace elsewhere, so I could potentially do homemade composting over there. Ill look into it, but if you have any good links here or elsewhere about home-made composting, Id love to have em.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

I highly recommend worm bin bags as seen at instructables.com for indoor worm bins (very high production). Make sure to reinforce the bottom seam. It's a sewing project, but I bet you an ad on craigslist could find you a person willing to sew the bags at 30 bucks a pop. One bag handles the waste more or less of a 2 person household. You could do more if you took time to shop things up small.

I keep production high by using bokashi to pre-digest my foodstock. Seems to support a larger worm population than the equivalent volume of raw food. You can also layer the bokashi in pots with alternating soil. in two months it's all just soil.

Dave Coulier said:
Im not too interested in having pet worms atm. Just more work for me to do. Ill be too tired from setting up my grow space again. Maybe later on Ill be in the mood to do it.
Click to expand...

do it now bro. Worms are not work at all. They do the work. That's the whole point! The only thing is it will take a while to build up your numbers. (I haven't tested to see if you can feed a bunch of bokashi to very few worm, and get usable product either way).

Somebody tell 2ndtry, as he has me on super dooper pooper scooper lifetime ignore, that the list of acronyms is not helpful (not as helpful as plain english anyway), and the thread lacks a concise account of concepts and resources (minus the references or list them as footnotes/endnotes). It's not handy to search through this unformatted, unindexed clutter, and I'd have to print out the acronyms to consult repeatedly as I read.

also, :moon: and :blowbubbles:
 
mad librettist

mad librettist

Active member
Veteran
Members on my 'ignore list': renz, asde^2, mad librettist and treefrog
Click to expand...

lmfao. that's gonna be a long list in 3 months! seriously, someone tell him it's not age-appropriate to put that in a signature line.
 
grapeman

grapeman

Active member
Veteran
Why are you wasting time with a tensiometer? why not a Neutron probe.

After a few years of using these moisture devices, I think plain old experience is a better indicator.

But isn't the probe more accurate? Thats what we were told when we begin using them in the '90's.
 
S

secondtry

Hey,

A neutron probe only tells us the total water content of media (moisture content of media), while a tensiometer tells us the water tension of media which correlates to the quality of water, ie. if it is mostly (easily) available water (1-10 kPa), buffer water (10-30 kPa) or unavailable water (>30 kPa). Using a neutron probe is not ideal to find moisture content of media if we are using the soil food web. For us, we should use moisture content by weight wet (gravimetric basis) and that can be found accurately for free at home (if one has an oven and a digital scale-see my sig). And using neutron probe as a means to know when to water is cumbersome due finding the soil-water deficit (link) from the first reading at CC (Container Capacity) with a neutron probe (by subtracting subsequent readings from the reading at CC).

I don't think people really know what moisture is or how to water (thanks to the like of E.Rosenthall, G.Cervantes, etc), just because there are not obvious outward sign to the naked human eye doesn't mean everything is good. For example, soil feels moist to us when it holds little water the plant can use, thus people think they don't need to water even tho they really should. Problem being they don't understand how water tension effects plant available water. People who water by feeling the media, or by weight of media (by picking it up), or by 'experience' have no way to know if they are watering correctly or not, and most of them are waiting too long to water.

The tensiometer can be used to ways: 1) to find water tension (and thus average pore size) at CC; and 2) to find water tension after CC as a means to know when to water by the quality of the water, not the total water in media (becuase much of that total water the plant either can't use easily or just plain can't use); and 2) using a tensiometer can tell me the (average) pore size of media because I have the conversions from kPa to pore size (thanks to NSCU). Thus measuring with the tensiometer at CC I can tell the water tension (should be 1-5 kPa at CC; or at most 1-10 kPa), and from the water tension I can tell pore sizes. Finding water tension at times other than CC is also good because it tells me about the potential grazing ability of microfauna and mesofauna which is the main force behind the microbial-loop.


P.S. That tensiometer I linked to is a portable version and it's only like $150 or so :)
 
mad librettist

mad librettist

Active member
Veteran
I don't think people really know what moisture is or how to water (thanks to the like of E.Rosenthall, G.Cervantes, etc), just because there are not obvious outward sign to the naked human eye doesn't mean everything is good. For example, soil feels moist to us when it holds little water the plant can use, thus people think they don't need to water even tho they really should. Problem being they don't understand how water tension effects plant available water. People who water by feeling the media, or by weight of media (by picking it up), or by 'experience' have no way to know if they are watering correctly or not, and most of them are waiting too long to water.
Click to expand...

actually, you can follow a little bit of knowledge to deduce whether or not you watered too much or too little. This is so easy to do, that hardly anyone with more than 2 grows under the belt has trouble.

We can use post facto evidence and memory to develop a skill set:

1)the plant needs minimal water to live
2)the plant needs optimal water to be healthy and prolific
3)too much water results in epinasty, and later on, rot.

a)is the plant still alive at harvest?
b)has it produced well?
c)did it wilt or rot?

Then there are reasons one may want to create stress with water. I believe that is the essence of "flushing" in conventional Cannabis cultivation.

Come on, let's use our noggins. You don't need an instrument to tell you it's time to water. If you pinch your finger tight, the space between your fingers represents the skill required to water your plants. If you have a shitload of plants, fine, a tool can help you keep track.

Talk about making things complicated... This is on of the most easygoing species you can put in a container. About the same difficulty level as a spider plant.
 
S

secondtry

RE: Fafard FOF 30

I can't find a single wholesale distributor who stocks the FOF 30 becuase of little demand and if I wanted to buy it I would need to buy a whole pallet. So it's a no go. However, a buddy of mine PMd me last week about another possible source for soilless media of the kind I have been writing about. It looks good, the info is below and one thing I like is it already have compost included (and the compost sounds good, info below):

I am ordering a bag next week and will send a sample to Fafard so they can test with their porormeter and I won't tell them its from a competitor. Fafard tech people told me they will test my media mixes for free. I will use this mix and not FOF 30 as a test for cannabis that others can follow.

Last week I emailed the soil scientist who developed this mix, he should email back soon (I hope) with answers to the air porosity, total porosity, container capacity, bulk density and I hope CEC. So far I am very pleasaed with my interactions with the company.


Vital Earth Products: "Ultra Blend"
http://www.vitalearth.com/bagged.htm


  • 38% Fine Bark
  • 29% Peat Moss
  • 19% Perlite
  • 14% Compost
  • Carl Pool Nutrient Stater


picture.php









Here is the compost in the mix, they sell it by the bag (I wouldn't assume it's as good as compost from MidWest):

http://www.vitalearth.com/bagged.htm
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
A blend of well composted organic materials including 50% cotton burr compost -- mechanically in-vessel composted for the most consistent, pathogen and weed seed free compost you can buy.
Click to expand...
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
  • [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]100% natural ingredients
    [/FONT]
  • [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Homogenized and pasteurized at over 140° [/FONT]
  • [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Non-burning, nutrient rich, organic plant food [/FONT]
  • [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Adds beneficial soil organisms [/FONT]
Click to expand...

They also sell micronized dolomite lime and other products, but I think it's really calcidic lime because it has 20% Ca and 10% Mg:
http://www.vitalearth.com/dynamic/retailtemp.asp#left
 
Clackamas Coot

Clackamas Coot

Active member
Veteran
secondtry

One of the ingredients that may require a 2nd look is the addition of 'cotton burr' because cotton is not a food crop, per se, the fields are hit with heavy loads of chemical fertilizers, pesticides, etc.

Organic non-GMO cottonseed meal is a challenge to source depending on where you live.

Perhaps an email to the manufacturer about the source of the cotton by-product might be helpful.

Just a thought.

CC
 
S

secondtry

A little more description of the Ultra Blend I forgot to include:

ULTRA BLEND is formulated from natural ingredients, using nature's own method of soil building. Containing an organic fertilizer charge and [perlite], Ultra Blend potting soil provides:

  • Good Drainage
  • Excellent water-holding capacity
  • Superior aeration
  • Natural fertility
  • Beneficial soil organisms

2 Cu. Ft. Bag | 60 Bags per pallet
Click to expand...
 
S

secondtry

Clackamas Coot said:
secondtry

One of the ingredients that may require a 2nd look is the addition of 'cotton burr' because cotton is not a food crop, per se, the fields are hit with heavy loads of chemical fertilizers, pesticides, etc.

Organic non-GMO cottonseed meal is a challenge to source depending on where you live.

Perhaps an email to the manufacturer about the source of the cotton by-product might be helpful.

Just a thought.

CC
Click to expand...

Will do, thanks for pointing that out.
 
Clackamas Coot

Clackamas Coot

Active member
Veteran
secondtry

A potting soil base that you might find interesting is neem coir as it takes up to 8 years to breakdown.

I picked-up a couple of bags at a trade show last summer and have done a couple of runs using it. Interesting if nothing else.

Just FYI

CC
 
S

secondtry

RE: Sourcing materials and directions for finding properties of media (DIY at home):


This thread is getting so long it may scare people off so I have compiled a list (not to be all encompassing) for sources of materials needed to make a soilliess mix similar to the one I designed, or a any soilless mix you like. I also included all the DIY media testing methods needed. I am going to update the fist post with a cleaner version of this post, but I am looking for suggestions from you all for products which I should include that are in my soilless mix, etc, thanks!


Here is a pic of a commercial screening bucket, pretty simple to copy, tho the screen in the pick is 1/4":

picture.php







1. Pre-mixed soilless media option:
(if one does not want to, or can not make their own mix. I am getting this tested with NCSU porometer because the company does not have data on air porosity, etc)

Ultra Blend
http://www.vitalearth.com/specbook/soils/ultra.htm

  • 38% Fine Bark
  • 29% Peat Moss
  • 19% Perlite
  • 14% Compost
  • Carl Pool Nutrient Stater



2. Charcoal:
(can use in place of biochar rice hulls, soak with hydrolyzed fish)

hgran10 (hardwood; 2-2.5 mm) << this one



Avian grandluar (hardwood; 3-7 mm)




3. Parboiled rice hulls:
(see attachment "Rice Hulls 101" for more info on horticultural uses of rice hulls)


Griffins PHB (retail source; 4 ft^3 at $217)




4. Aged pine bark fines:
(soak with hydrolyzed fish)

Mid America Mulch Inc.

  • Bradenton, Florida #(941) 746-1999


Ameriscape Inc

  • Harbor Springs, Michigan #(231) 347-0077


Pine mulch (find at HomeDepot, Lowes, Ag stores)




5. Aged hardwood fines:
(use this if you can't find pine bark; soak with hydrolyzed fish)


Greenmix (wholesale)

  • Waupaca Northwoods LLC.
DBA as Waupaca Materials
P.O. Box 569Waupaca, WI 54981
​



6. Zeolite:


7. Azomite:



8. Dolomitic lime:


9. Calcitic lime:

Marblewhite 325 - Solution Grade Mined Limestone




10. Earthworm castings:


Worm Castings (contains red worm egg capsules so worms will by in your media already, no need to add them!)



Worm power (low EC)




11. Humus compost:

Advanced composting system (ask for 30lb bags)




12. Compost:
(to be used if can not find humus compost; ie. tested to be humus rich)

Mcenroe (find at local hydro store, some Lowes, etc)



Vital Earth Rose Peat Compost (NOTE: made with biosolids)



Fafard Composted Cow Manure (call for a local distributor)



Fafard Compost Garden Manure (call for a local distributor)




13. Alaskan humus:
(can use in place of compost or of EWC, or mix with compost and EWC)

Alaskan Humus (least expensive and the same source as Kis and Earth Fort, from Denali Gold)



Keep It Simple Alaska Humus





14. Environmentally Sound Harvested Canadian Peat Moss:

Premier (find at Lowes, HomeDepot, local hydro store, etc)





15. Compost for ACT:
(Alaskan humus/compost from KIS is also a good source for tested organic matter)

Keep It Simple fungal compost (not for soilless mix; for ACT)


16. Fish Hydrolysate:

PVFS Liquid Fish (2-4-0.2) ($9.99 a gallon, a great deal)




17. Kelp extract:
(via. cellular rupture method):


18. Humic acid:


19. Screens:

0.078" width opening (2 mm)



0.137" width opening (3.5 mm)




20. Surfactant:
(only apply one time, at first watering and when pre-soaking bark and charcoal)
Yucca Extract (without Preservative)​


21. DIY directions for finding the air porosity, container capacity and total porosity of homemade soilless media:

1. "Physical properties of container media"
James Altland, Ph.D.

(his info on water tension by pore size is not accurate, but most everything else looks correct)



2. "How to determine physical properties of a container media"

(the step-by-step guide)





22. DIY directions for finding the bulk density of media:


bulk destiny related conversions (by Steve Diver)




23. DIY directions for finding pH and EC of media:

NCSU PourThru pH and EC (preferred for ease and decent accuracy)




24. DIY directions for finding the moisture content of media by wet weight gravimetric basis:

Cornell suggest method
​
 

Attachments

  • Rice Hulls 101.pdf
    237.3 KB · Views: 47
grapeman

grapeman

Active member
Veteran
secondtry said:
Hey,

A neutron probe only tells us the total water content of media (moisture content of media), while a tensiometer tells us the water tension of media which correlates to the quality of water, ie. if it is mostly (easily) available water (1-10 kPa), buffer water (10-30 kPa) or unavailable water (>30 kPa). Using a neutron probe is not ideal to find moisture content of media if we are using the soil food web. For us, we should use moisture content by weight wet (gravimetric basis) and that can be found accurately for free at home (if one has an oven and a digital scale-see my sig). And using neutron probe as a means to know when to water is cumbersome due finding the soil-water deficit (link) from the first reading at CC (Container Capacity) with a neutron probe (by subtracting subsequent readings from the reading at CC).

I don't think people really know what moisture is or how to water (thanks to the like of E.Rosenthall, G.Cervantes, etc), just because there are not obvious outward sign to the naked human eye doesn't mean everything is good. For example, soil feels moist to us when it holds little water the plant can use, thus people think they don't need to water even tho they really should. Problem being they don't understand how water tension effects plant available water. People who water by feeling the media, or by weight of media (by picking it up), or by 'experience' have no way to know if they are watering correctly or not, and most of them are waiting too long to water.

The tensiometer can be used to ways: 1) to find water tension (and thus average pore size) at CC; and 2) to find water tension after CC as a means to know when to water by the quality of the water, not the total water in media (becuase much of that total water the plant either can't use easily or just plain can't use); and 2) using a tensiometer can tell me the (average) pore size of media because I have the conversions from kPa to pore size (thanks to NSCU). Thus measuring with the tensiometer at CC I can tell the water tension (should be 1-5 kPa at CC; or at most 1-10 kPa), and from the water tension I can tell pore sizes. Finding water tension at times other than CC is also good because it tells me about the potential grazing ability of microfauna and mesofauna which is the main force behind the microbial-loop.


P.S. That tensiometer I linked to is a portable version and it's only like $150 or so :)
Click to expand...

Nice to know that we threw away our cheap ass tensiometers for a couple of probes. LOL. Anyway, what I mean about irrigating and experience is that after a few years of watching the crops, watching the reactions and actions of the plants and correlating your reading with the weather, it sorta becomes a waste of time to keep irrigating by tensiometers. But to learn, for the first time, how it all comes together, it is a valuable tool. IMO
 
S

secondtry

Ha, I tend to do things like that too.

RE: getting used to watering:
You trust yourself more then I trust myself, BTW, are you a viticulturist?

All the best
 
S

secondtry

I just added the following items to my list (most are less expensive sources)


Surfactants:

Yucca Extract - (Without Preservative)

http://www.tandjenterprises.com/CCPRO/ecom-prodshow/yuccaextractpintwop.html


Therm X70:

http://www.groworganic.com/item_PSA000_Therm_X70_Yucca_Extract_Quart.html




Hydrolyzed fish:

PVFS Liquid Fish (2-4-0.2) ($9.99 a gallon, a great deal)
http://www.groworganic.com/item_F1335_PVFS_Liquid_Fish_2402_Gallon.html


EWC:

Worm Castings (contain red worm egg capsules so worms will by in your media already, no need to add them!)
http://www.groworganic.com/item_F902_Worm_Castings_1_Cu_Ft.html



Alaskan Humus: (which I don't' this is a truly accurate description)

Alaskan Humus (least expensive and the same source as Kis and Earth Fort, from Danli Gold)
http://www.groworganic.com/item_ISA315_PVFS_Arctic_Humus_1_cubic_foot.html
 
localhero

localhero

Member
Damn Second it's all starting to come together. Great find on the smaller charcoal.

Ok on humic acid the dry form like you listed. Am I wasting a ton of money on the liquid form, humbolt nutrients ie (fine im naming names) and liquid fulvic acid? How do you use the dry form?

Surfacants: we arent talking wetting agents here right? As in me using a few drops of dr. bronners hemp soap into whatever i foliar spray? Sometimes i put a few drops in my tea before i feed my plants to (maybe) help it soak in better in the soiless mix. If this is not the same concept, what is a surfacant?
 
S

secondtry

Hey LH,

Damn Second it's all starting to come together. Great find on the smaller charcoal.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I'm trying to make it all easier to understand, this is a loooong thread. I didn't find the charcoal, someone else posted the link in this thread, I just copied it.


Ok on humic acid the dry form like you listed. Am I wasting a ton of money on the liquid form, humbolt nutrients ie (fine im naming names) and liquid fulvic acid? How do you use the dry form?
Click to expand...

I like to order in dry form beucae I am not paying to ship water, and the SP-90 has a decent pH, many humic acids have higher pH. To use the dry form you would simply mix it with water, or you could mix it with the media but to me mixing with water is a better choice.


Surfacants: we arent talking wetting agents here right?
Click to expand...

Yup they are one in the same. But surfactants become phytotoxic fast, thus we only want to use them for the first time we water the media, surfactants stay active for months. I would hilgy suggset you do not use soap, use one of the products I listed. I for one prefer Tween80 for it's effect upon microbes but yucca because it seems like a more effective surfactant.

HTH
 
Trichgnomes

Trichgnomes

Member
38% Fine Bark
29% Peat Moss
19% Perlite
14% Compost
Carl Pool Nutrient Stater
Click to expand...

Hey 2nd,
Are you gonna pick out the perlite? j/k

Dave Coulis/ others interested-

As for a source of compost for folks on the Eastern Seaboard that was not mentioned, Compostwerks does biological testing on their compost. http://www.compostwerks.com/Our-Compost.php

I have not personally used it, but it has been recommended by a knowledgeable person whose opinion I value. Not sure what increments they sell it in as you have to contact them to get a quote. Anyone up for it?
 
Clackamas Coot

Clackamas Coot

Active member
Veteran
secondtry

I think that you'll find the yucca extract from T & J to be to your liking. Great product and priced well all things considered.

CC
 
S

secondtry

Hey CC,

Yea that is the product I prefer, I have a bottle rigth in front of me :) However, I kind of like Therm X70 because the application rate is SO much lower than that suggested by T&J.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Latest posts

Top