Development and Harvest Yields of Greenhouse Tomatoes in Six Orgnaic Growing Systems
I dont know if its a problem or not it doesnt seem like your trying to market it. I use that stuff and its mighty stinky! I almost made a thread on how not to use this indoors if its anywhere near your bedroom! If it wasnt for febreeze i would've died last night. Smells like strongly fermented fish sauce, and not the good kind! Than again i was foliar feeding so maybe it was poor judgement on my part. Usually my sea kelp smells better upon dilution, i thought this shouldn't smell bad after. Not my case at all!
ok this gave me eye wiplash... Not sure why I ignored this before. I know I want to do real soil, but maybe I can keep two 14gal tubs and alternate, and one can be this mix. I leave home for work a lot, and less watering needs would be a big plus. How does this compare to a decent soil water wise?
Now I assume in the above comparison, the volume of media is constant?
EDIT: also, i'm assuming i can keep wigglers alive in it like a normally do? I like to scratch the surface and see worms.
2nd Edit: what about the rice hulls? I have searched repeatedly and can't find a source. So any ideas for a replacement? I was gonna say perlite just to piss ya off but decided since I'm asking for help I better not.
Mad, I already posted a link earlier. www.griffins.com
Secondtry even directed someone else in this thread to that post.
http://www.griffins.com/pdf/catalog/2010/by_pages/145-160.pdf
Page 11.
On a side note, I finally finished sifting 2.8cf of Nursery Mix. What a pain in the ass. I ended up with nearly a full 5 gallon painters bucket of the stuff 2-4mm. I also sifted my wiggle worms, and that stuff was nicely free of debris. Some of it was clumped up, but it wasn't a big problem. Now the Black Cow Spent Mushroom compost was a pita, and its crap. Half of the stuff is large bark pieces and some pieces of wood thrown in. It was the first compost Ive ever bought(months ago) and it was cheap. Now I realize, cheap isn't always the way to go. MM, or Secondtry do you have a good source of compost that wont break the bank?
Thanks DC, and sorry for the redundancy. The format of this thread makes my eyes swim.
Somebody needs to fillet it, and serve the fillet as a locked thread that can only be edited by 2ndtry, with just the instructions for dummies like me. I have a daily limit of about 5 pages of technical material. And I can't remember the damn acronyms. 2ndtry, you need some macros!
Edit: I know you asked for humus sources from the MM and 2ndtry, but let me ask you what your situation is, space wise, and if that's what is keeping you from composting. I've been looking at ways to make great compost humus and earth worm castings (not as good as luebke, but better than most commercial stuff) with limited space. 80-90% of my kitchen waste stream is getting processed without leaving the house, with a very small footprint.
and the very very fresh humus made from very nutritious items is very effective.
if you are on the eastern seaboard, you may have an agway. I find their "shrimp and seaweed compost" to be both cheap and effective. Lots of chitin in shrimp shells, which means the humus is loaded with chitin decomposers.
Somebody needs to fillet it, and serve the fillet as a locked thread that can only be edited by 2ndtry, with just the instructions for dummies like me. I have a daily limit of about 5 pages of technical material. And I can't remember the damn acronyms. 2ndtry, you need some macros!
Edit: I know you asked for humus sources from the MM and 2ndtry, but let me ask you what your situation is, space wise, and if that's what is keeping you from composting. I've been looking at ways to make great compost humus and earth worm castings (not as good as luebke, but better than most commercial stuff) with limited space. 80-90% of my kitchen waste stream is getting processed without leaving the house, with a very small footprint.
and the very very fresh humus made from very nutritious items is very effective.
if you are on the eastern seaboard, you may have an agway. I find their "shrimp and seaweed compost" to be both cheap and effective. Lots of chitin in shrimp shells, which means the humus is loaded with chitin decomposers.
S
secondtry
Hey dave,
What thread are you referring to? I have not seen it. Thanks.
Hey, thanks for making the thread about this zeolite even though you messed up the original linkI never thought about looking to ebay for zeolite. Hope you dont mind me beating you to the punch and putting it in here.
What thread are you referring to? I have not seen it. Thanks.
S
secondtry
That is a problem for me too. I have used a shredder/chipper to reduce size of bark. Screening from 4-2 mm is ideal, but larger than 4mm is fine too, for example Fafard FOF30 uses bark from over 6mm.
Nice, sounds good.
No problem, I'm glad to help. GL!
S
secondtry
Hey LH,
Ideally 4-6% by weight of the mix (when dry). So you would make a sample mix, weigh it, and find 4-6% of that. Then use the weight of zeolite for each time to mix up media. The zeolite is powder right?
HTH
Ideally 4-6% by weight of the mix (when dry). So you would make a sample mix, weigh it, and find 4-6% of that. Then use the weight of zeolite for each time to mix up media. The zeolite is powder right?
I am not pre-soaking zeolite and you are correct it's for CEC, but it also to offer clay in the formation of the media aggregate known as the "clay-humus crumb" (coined by the Luebke family); although it should probably be called the "Ca-clay-humus aggregate" (microbes help bring it all together).
Mix throughout media.
HTH
S
secondtry
Hey again LH,
That is the same hydrolyzed fish I use. I follow the directions on the bottle when soaking bark. Why did you edit out the company name?
HTH
That is the same hydrolyzed fish I use. I follow the directions on the bottle when soaking bark. Why did you edit out the company name?
HTH
S
secondtry
Hey Mad.L,
I am not sure, but I would think the water usage would be faster than soil considering the media is more favorable to roots and soil food web than most soil (increasing rate of photosynthesis, stomatal conductance, etc)
Yup they do find, lots of food for them, and they like media on the aerobic side.
Ha, yea better not. Dave posted the link to rice hulls, but I think other grain hulls (of similar size) would be a fine replacement for rice hulls, or small biochar from wood, etc, is fine too (while less ideal)
HTH
I am not sure, but I would think the water usage would be faster than soil considering the media is more favorable to roots and soil food web than most soil (increasing rate of photosynthesis, stomatal conductance, etc)
Yup they do find, lots of food for them, and they like media on the aerobic side.
Ha, yea better not. Dave posted the link to rice hulls, but I think other grain hulls (of similar size) would be a fine replacement for rice hulls, or small biochar from wood, etc, is fine too (while less ideal)
HTH
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=162442
Mad, Im getting a new growspace elsewhere, so I could potentially do homemade composting over there. Ill look into it, but if you have any good links here or elsewhere about home-made composting, Id love to have em.
Thanks.
S
secondtry
Hey Dave,
Spent mushroom compost is not a good choice, but it's often touted as such. Sorry you got taken'. It is either treated with high salt, heat or chemicals and left fallow for a number of years. Then it is bagged and sold. Besides those obvious concerns, the compost has already been 'eaten' and used by the fungi to produce mushroom.
You could get a single 30lb bag of great 'humus' compost (at about 35-40% moisture conent) for about $30 from Midwest Biosystems. The guy in Vermont, "CV Compost" is also a great source of humus compost. Shipping shouldn't be too bad. I would say get it from CTGuy but the shipping could kill your wallet. If you can't compost elsewhere I would use more EWC and no compost.
"humus compost" means compost high a high score (ie. high humic fraction of compost) using either the Luebke Humus Test kit (scale of 100) or the Midwest Biosystem Humus Test kit (scale of 200).
Spent mushroom compost is not a good choice, but it's often touted as such. Sorry you got taken'. It is either treated with high salt, heat or chemicals and left fallow for a number of years. Then it is bagged and sold. Besides those obvious concerns, the compost has already been 'eaten' and used by the fungi to produce mushroom.
You could get a single 30lb bag of great 'humus' compost (at about 35-40% moisture conent) for about $30 from Midwest Biosystems. The guy in Vermont, "CV Compost" is also a great source of humus compost. Shipping shouldn't be too bad. I would say get it from CTGuy but the shipping could kill your wallet. If you can't compost elsewhere I would use more EWC and no compost.
"humus compost" means compost high a high score (ie. high humic fraction of compost) using either the Luebke Humus Test kit (scale of 100) or the Midwest Biosystem Humus Test kit (scale of 200).
S
secondtry
Hey Mad L,
I have tired to update the thread starting post over time. I added info on the Fafard FOF30 mix and common acronyms found in this thread. I would like to add other info to help prevent confusion, what would you suggest I add to the first post?
+1. If I am low on EWC I usually go to local producers to get the fresh stuff.
Good point. I think WormsWay would carry decent bagged compost.
I have tired to update the thread starting post over time. I added info on the Fafard FOF30 mix and common acronyms found in this thread. I would like to add other info to help prevent confusion, what would you suggest I add to the first post?
+1. If I am low on EWC I usually go to local producers to get the fresh stuff.
Good point. I think WormsWay would carry decent bagged compost.
At least I only got taken for $5 bucks
. At least the lesson learned was cheap. I checked out MW biosystems website, and see no order form for the compost. I suppose I need to either call or write them to place an order. CV compost isn't an option though since they only sell in bulk Speaking of that Shrimp and Seaweed compost. I saw it is made by Fafard. Think it'd be worth buying any of that?
S
secondtry
Thanks.
I got ya covered in that department. I posted some good info a thread entitled "all about guano". One post in particular should provide you with what you need in a simple to learn format (composting gets very complex if you get into it). Give me a few minutes to find the thread and post/s.
Have you thought about vermicycling? Using a worn bin? Worms can make usable EWC very quickly.
HTH
Im not too interested in having pet worms atm. Just more work for me to do. Ill be too tired from setting up my grow space again. Maybe later on Ill be in the mood to do it.
Enjoy all. Ive got to go to work. then Ill be spending tonight and tomorrow trimming. Weeee!
S
secondtry
Hey Dave,
Yea call Midwest, ask for the 30lb bags.
Info on composting:
1. Read this post of mine first, it should offer everything you need through two links so you can easily and quickly understand composting and design a virtual compost pile (it's a neat interactive online tool):
2. More info on advaned composting I presented with lots of papers I uploaded:
3. A post of mine about "phospho-composting":
4. More info about how I compost:
At least I only got taken for $5 bucks
Yea call Midwest, ask for the 30lb bags.
Yea I bet. I will read it up on it to be sure. Do you have a link?
Info on composting:
1. Read this post of mine first, it should offer everything you need through two links so you can easily and quickly understand composting and design a virtual compost pile (it's a neat interactive online tool):
2. More info on advaned composting I presented with lots of papers I uploaded:
- http://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=3163575&postcount=98
- http://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=3163583&postcount=99
3. A post of mine about "phospho-composting":
4. More info about how I compost:
localhero
Member
Ive been perusing this site for a while now, although I dont have a ton of posts. Didn't wanna be seen as pushing one product over another.
Funny story, I was picking up more banana kush clones from my all time favorite dispensory yesterday. They have tested clones, with the final product on shelf and not the oaksterdam common every other dispensory here has. As luck would have it, the owner of the clones came by while I was there. So I ask him what soil he uses outside. He says, "you wanna know a secret"? Sure I do. He says, "I just throw em straight into the ground and maybe throw some nice ff on top if I'm feeling generous". My backyard soil is straight up clay. I rented a post auger from hemp depot to dig fence post holes, and the fucker just sat spinning on the ground. It took 3 days to dig those holes by hand, inch by inch, soaking, then digging, then soaking..
I dont know where I'd be without icmag. To be fair to him tho, he does really know his shit when it comes to hydro, and he grows some great green. It just is a crazy thought to be at the mercy of the hydro store guys (pm? yeah man just use earth worm castings in your soil) and random street talk as my source of info.
Funny story, I was picking up more banana kush clones from my all time favorite dispensory yesterday. They have tested clones, with the final product on shelf and not the oaksterdam common every other dispensory here has. As luck would have it, the owner of the clones came by while I was there. So I ask him what soil he uses outside. He says, "you wanna know a secret"? Sure I do. He says, "I just throw em straight into the ground and maybe throw some nice ff on top if I'm feeling generous". My backyard soil is straight up clay. I rented a post auger from hemp depot to dig fence post holes, and the fucker just sat spinning on the ground. It took 3 days to dig those holes by hand, inch by inch, soaking, then digging, then soaking..
I dont know where I'd be without icmag. To be fair to him tho, he does really know his shit when it comes to hydro, and he grows some great green. It just is a crazy thought to be at the mercy of the hydro store guys (pm? yeah man just use earth worm castings in your soil) and random street talk as my source of info.
Fafard doesn't have a link to give more info about it. Its listed, but no page describing it
.Thanks for the new links. Ill check em out tomorrow I hope.
S
secondtry
Tensiometers:
As I have tried to show, media-water tension can be correlated to pore size when measure at CC (Container Capacity). Thus at CC we want ideally 1-10 kPa for plants (1-5 kPa is probably better but it also means increased pore size). For our purposes it seems 1-10 kPa might be wise at CC. And watering once the kPa drops below 50% moisture content (~5-10 kPa) seems a good use of the tensiometer (instead of weighing media as in my sig) because the tensiometer can show us the plant available water (ie. < 10 kPa).
Because I need to buy the portable tensiometer (a few hundred dollars) I may wait to test my media for a few more weeks. Once I have the tenisomter I will make my media and send it off to be tested with the NCSU porometer. Then I can compile info with the porometer data and the tensiometer datum to see the porosities and pore size of my media.
Here is a must read:
"Using tensiometers to make irrigation decisions in greenhouse production"
by Heiner Lieth
Environmental Horticulture. University of California
http://lieth.ucdavis.edu/Research/tens/98/SmtPub.htm
Here is the portable tensiometer I am going to buy, the "QuickDraw" (the 12" or 18" model):
http://www.soilmoisture.com/prod_details.asp?prod_id=1106&cat_id=14
Figure 1 shows the relationship between moisture tension and moisture content for the medium UC mix. The UC mix is very similar to the LC mix. Note that in this figure moisture content by volume is used, but we want to use moisture content by wet weight, thus the figure is not very representative of the moisture-retention curve found in soilless media such as mine or FOF 30/70/etc. The fact we want to use moisture content by wet weight means the curve in the following figure is not very representative, but he figure does show what I have been writing about this whole time
I attached a few paper to this post, kind of an intro to soil water issues (and it uses soil, so it's not correct for soilless media but it's very good read)
As I have tried to show, media-water tension can be correlated to pore size when measure at CC (Container Capacity). Thus at CC we want ideally 1-10 kPa for plants (1-5 kPa is probably better but it also means increased pore size). For our purposes it seems 1-10 kPa might be wise at CC. And watering once the kPa drops below 50% moisture content (~5-10 kPa) seems a good use of the tensiometer (instead of weighing media as in my sig) because the tensiometer can show us the plant available water (ie. < 10 kPa).
Because I need to buy the portable tensiometer (a few hundred dollars) I may wait to test my media for a few more weeks. Once I have the tenisomter I will make my media and send it off to be tested with the NCSU porometer. Then I can compile info with the porometer data and the tensiometer datum to see the porosities and pore size of my media.
Here is a must read:
"Using tensiometers to make irrigation decisions in greenhouse production"
by Heiner Lieth
Environmental Horticulture. University of California
http://lieth.ucdavis.edu/Research/tens/98/SmtPub.htm
Here is the portable tensiometer I am going to buy, the "QuickDraw" (the 12" or 18" model):
http://www.soilmoisture.com/prod_details.asp?prod_id=1106&cat_id=14
Figure 1 shows the relationship between moisture tension and moisture content for the medium UC mix. The UC mix is very similar to the LC mix. Note that in this figure moisture content by volume is used, but we want to use moisture content by wet weight, thus the figure is not very representative of the moisture-retention curve found in soilless media such as mine or FOF 30/70/etc. The fact we want to use moisture content by wet weight means the curve in the following figure is not very representative, but he figure does show what I have been writing about this whole time
I attached a few paper to this post, kind of an intro to soil water issues (and it uses soil, so it's not correct for soilless media but it's very good read)
