6k vertical show... Need opinions on my design.

[mikeross]

Hello all, I wanted to start this tread to get a little more knowledge from members with some vertical growing experience. I am in the process of starting up a new room/location and was dead set on a 4.8k flood and drain table setup, sealed room with co2… Simplified the system was 4-4x8 tables under 2-600’s on a mover, 48 plants each table in hopes to set up a perpetual system harvesting every 2 weeks.
This was the plan for my next grow… http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=138915
The above was the planned setup and I researched all aspects of that setup. Even did a trail run over 1 4x8 table with 2 600’s + mover. Yielded 34zips, first run with 48 plants thrown @ 12/12 @ 12”(16day veg).



Anyways, That was the plan until I stumbled upon Krunchbubble’s 6k vertical setup. I am loving these vert “wall of green” setups. After doing a little more searches and reading about a few nice size vert setups I am thinking of changing everything already planned and start the plan for a 6k setup. I was hoping to start this tread to get some insight to my questions. I am good at searching for the answers to my questions but unfortunately the vertical growing section of this website is kinda lacking. I really feel that vertical is the future in growing. I plan to have this room up and running for awhile so I want to build something very permanent.

There are many very knowledgeable members on this site who go out of their way to provide helpful insight. I know I have had a lot of help in my initial plans and those members know who they are. I am hoping we can all brainstorm within this thread to build a beautiful 6k setup. Thanks to all willing help with some of my questions… very much appreciated.

 

[mikeross]

This is a quick sketch I did to try and explain the room layout. The room is about 19' long and 10' wide, exact dimensions depend on how wide i decide to build my shelving... Room height is 8'.

The room is divided in half with a doubled sided shelving unit. From the pics you can see I plan to make it about 5' long division with plants on either side of the wall. All other shelving is 8' long except for the two areas that share the wall with the door to the room. There will be a 36" metal door to enter the room... The two shelving areas that share the wall with the door will be around 7' long to allow space for the door. Kinda confusing to explain but I hope the picture helps. I plan to run 2 gallon pots but open to all suggestions. This will be a perpetual setup... I plan to harvest one side a month. Rooted clones will have up to one month to veg. I really hope someone can give me an idea as far as plant numbers in this setup with a 1 month veg... same goes for pot sizes.

 

[mikeross]

The above dimensions are just a quick sketch and the actual dimensions are sure to change. I need to figure out how deep each shelving unit will be before calculating exact lengths of everything.

I decided to duplicated the design of Heath Robinson 4x6 room and apply it to my 8x8 room x2. I know every vertical grower have seen these pics.

Awesome Photo

 

[mikeross]

I am hoping the above gives everyone a pretty good visual of what I intent to build. I do plan to fully document everything and post a detail journal to help others who may have similar questions that I had.

Were do I start lol... so many questions.

I planned to run 3k worth of lights in each side of the room for a 6k total. Should I run all HPS bulbs or would a 1000mh in the middle be a better option?

Do you suggest sticking with 3 rows of shelves or would 2 be better. I have followed 2 journals where the growers first run was with 3 rows of shelving but second run both growers decided only run 2 shelves. Each never came back to explain why the change. I assume they space the distance between shelves with the 2 shelve setup and throw in bigger plants. So which option would you suggest... 2 or 3 rows of shelving.

Air cooled vs open bulbs? This grow will be in a basement which has a steady 60*temps all year round +- a few degrees. I have never run anything but air cooled hoods so i am not really sure how the temps are in a open bulb setup. Keep in mind this is a sealed room with co2 so exhausting the room is not an issue. What size A/C will I need to run this system bare bulb? Is bare bulb worth it or should I just use cooltubes? I have no issues air cooling but If I could do away with aircooling by using an A/C it might be worth it. Opinions please

I was set on using 100% coco in the flood and drain setup I had planned but with these drippers maybe hydroton might be a better option. Anyone who has runned a similar setup please share your experience with either medium you used.

I know its a lot of questions but hoping someone can help me out or point me in the right direction. I did a lot of searches in icmag but there is limiting info about vertical style growing.

 

[Lazyman]

Hey bro, I can help but I don't have time tonight, wl be back tmw afternoon and will help you out. Real quick, no hoods and bare bulbs on movers yes, ac probly a 2-ton split with say 6 lights and the CO2 genny.

 

[mikeross]

Hey bro, I can help but I don't have time tonight, wl be back tmw afternoon and will help you out. Real quick, no hoods and bare bulbs on movers yes, ac probly a 2-ton split with say 6 lights and the CO2 genny.

Thanks buddy... looking forward to your thoughts on the setup. I'm still doing a lot of research since I really am a noob when it comes to vertical growing. After a lot of reading last night I am really surprised more people aren't running vert setups.

 

[Lazyman]

Yeah, I have given them some thought on and off over the years too, vert is definitely where the big yields are. I think my hesitations come from managing such a wild drip system, on a large scale it looks to be a real handful. I am really hoping to use the Blumat auto-waterers which are gravity fed though, which isn't vert compatible in my sitch.

So yeah I've done a bunch of reading, and I think movers with the bare bulbs would be SICK. less manual rotation of plants, killer coverage, yadda yadda.

I'd run the MH in the middle sure, I like those bulbs.
6kw sounds about right, 3 lights per rail.
I think coco is more forgiving than hydroton on nutes, and more fault tolerant on watering.

YOur first sketch isn't what i envisioned, the lights need to be in a line, running up and down an aisle of plants on racks. Racks about 2' from the lights horizontally. The racks would be the length of the light mover rail basically. 3 lights per 8-10' long rack I think. I'd bet you can fit 4 racks (two aisles side by side) in one side of your room and use the other for veg or whatever, or even do a second flowering room later if you want to go big. Hell, if you could fit 6 lights per room, you could likely get 12-20 # per room! Stagger them 30 days so you have some time to catch up! lol

Hope that helps, let me know if the above post made any sense!

 

[mikeross]

Yeah, I have given them some thought on and off over the years too, vert is definitely where the big yields are. I think my hesitations come from managing such a wild drip system, on a large scale it looks to be a real handful. I am really hoping to use the Blumat auto-waterers which are gravity fed though, which isn't vert compatible in my sitch.

So yeah I've done a bunch of reading, and I think movers with the bare bulbs would be SICK. less manual rotation of plants, killer coverage, yadda yadda.

I'd run the MH in the middle sure, I like those bulbs.
6kw sounds about right, 3 lights per rail.
I think coco is more forgiving than hydroton on nutes, and more fault tolerant on watering.

YOur first sketch isn't what i envisioned, the lights need to be in a line, running up and down an aisle of plants on racks. Racks about 2' from the lights horizontally. The racks would be the length of the light mover rail basically. 3 lights per 8-10' long rack I think. I'd bet you can fit 4 racks (two aisles side by side) in one side of your room and use the other for veg or whatever, or even do a second flowering room later if you want to go big. Hell, if you could fit 6 lights per room, you could likely get 12-20 # per room! Stagger them 30 days so you have some time to catch up! lol

Hope that helps, let me know if the above post made any sense!

All of the above makes perfect sense to me. I was actually thinking of a light mover and extending the length or the rooms.

I have seen a few vert setups online and it seems most guys running 2-3k worth of lights are using 8x8 rooms. If you figure 12" for the shelves on either wall it would give you a inside room span of 6' meaning the string of bulbs would be about 3' from the plants... any comments about the 3' distance from the plants, is 2' optimal?

The areas of the sketch were is says 8', 7', 5' long are the shelving units. The 5' section in the sketch would be 2 5' width shelving units faced back to back. The sketch is pretty much what you explain if you remove the 5' of back to back shelving in the middle of the room... Plus throwing the string of lights on movers, minus the aisles.

Still trying to brain storm the layout. I do have some time... planning the move 2nd week of January and it will probably take me a good 2 weeks to get settled in the new house before starting construction of the room... gotta scope out my new surroundings. It would save me a ton of time if I could find a way to safely bring a few rooted clones almost 3000miles away... Any ideas? I was thinking of either starting 4 different strains from seeds and eventually keeping some moms or driving a bunch of clones across country which it a last resort.

Either way looking forward to the move... The area I'm moving to is a lot more rural than the east bay, very private. Every house I looked at had a huge open basement with 8" ceilings, the realtor told me 80% of the homes in this state have basements... steady 60*+- temps within the basement all year round

 

[mikeross]

I think my hesitations come from managing such a wild drip system, on a large scale it looks to be a real handful.

It's funny because this was my only concern as well because I have never run a drip system much less one of this size. I was actually at home depot today in the irrigation aisle. I took a look at the 1/2 & 1/4 lines, all the different barb fittings and played around with the hole punch tool... everything seemed pretty straight forward and I was really surprised how tight the seal is on the lines when making connections. I was thinking of just making a loop system with 1/2" tubing around all the shelves with 1/4 lines splitting off the main line to run water to the pots.

The vert setups I have seen are not running very many plants. I figured if I stagger my harvest to once a month that would give me a 1 month veg time. I think I can veg my girls out big enough in that time to really bring the plant count down, which would result is a slightly less complicated drip system... well at least less punch holes to make & less 1/4" lines.

While at home depot I also checked out their gutter area. They sell every single fitting you would need to recreate the gutter drainage setup that Heath Robinson created in the above pictures. The gutter part of the system is pretty easy to setup in my opinion... everything just snaps together with silicone. The cutter fittings even have a small channel were you are suppose to run the silicone.

The drip lines and cutter system seemed pretty straight forward once I saw all the materials in person.

 

[mikeross]

I quickly did a redesigned to the sealed room to incorporate light movers. Because of the movers I made the width of the room slightly shorter and made the length a few feet longer.

I think the picture will give a good idea of what i'm trying to build. Each side of the room would be 7' wide by 10' long, making the entire room 14'x10'. If you factor out the foot prints of the racks it would give each aisle a 5'6" width x 9'3" length of space. Given the width or 5'6", Every rack in the room will be 33" away from the bulbs. The end of the light rail would stop 33" from the 5'6" racks and pause. The string of lights would only have to travel 45" up and down the light rail. Not sure yet how long they would need to pause at each end. Also not sure if its better to have the lights move as fast as possible or maybe a slower speed?

** I am not sure exactly what the optimal distance the plants should be. Would love come comments on light distance. Also not sure how fast the light mover should be traveling.**

Because of the light movers I would not run cool tubes in this setup and would just run open bulbs. There will be a lot more circulation in this room. Each aisle will have 2 16" fans centers in the middle of the aisle on the floor pushing air up towards the bulbs and plants. There will also be 1 16" fan for each aisle mounted on the wall pushing air down the length of each aisle... 6 16" fans total.

** do you guys think the fans are overkill... Would like recommendations of fan sizes for the wall fans and fan that will be under the bulbs**

Room with have a can150 with a 12" max fan setup just to scrub and circulate the room. I think I would place it at the end cap of the two back to back racks in the center of the room.

**Not sure were to mount the co2 generator though?**

** With the above info what size mini split system would u suggest. I was thinking a 16k mr.slim would work.**

Only issue with the mini split is having a hvac guy coming over to flush the linesets. I am not worried about the initial setup but more worried if it breaks down and he needs to come back.

I remember Lazyman mentioning a a/c system were the line sets are precharged... ** any info on this would be great**

I would really lover some comments good and bad about the above plan.

 

[Lazyman]

I quickly did a redesigned to the sealed room to incorporate light movers. Because of the movers I made the width of the room slightly shorter and made the length a few feet longer.

I think the picture will give a good idea of what i'm trying to build. Each side of the room would be 7' wide by 10' long, making the entire room 14'x10'. If you factor out the foot prints of the racks it would give each aisle a 5'6" width x 9'3" length of space. Given the width or 5'6", Every rack in the room will be 33" away from the bulbs. The end of the light rail would stop 33" from the 5'6" racks and pause. The string of lights would only have to travel 45" up and down the light rail.

Not sure yet how long they would need to pause at each end. Also not sure if its better to have the lights move as fast as possible or maybe a slower speed?

A few seconds per end, and slow is good.

** I am not sure exactly what the optimal distance the plants should be. Would love come comments on light distance.

With a mover you can have them fairly close since they won't sit still long enough to burn. But, you want enough room for the light to reach all the canopy. Some trial and error will be needed, shoot for 6-8K lumens/footcandles (yeah I know they're not the same, but the measurements are and lumen meters are hard to find!) around the bulb area, a 1-2K less at the edges. You may want to read on some other forums for some 1K bulb starter measurements though.

Because of the light movers I would not run cool tubes in this setup and would just run open bulbs. There will be a lot more circulation in this room. Each aisle will have 2 16" fans centers in the middle of the aisle on the floor pushing air up towards the bulbs and plants. There will also be 1 16" fan for each aisle mounted on the wall pushing air down the length of each aisle... 6 16" fans total.

** do you guys think the fans are overkill... Would like recommendations of fan sizes for the wall fans and fan that will be under the bulbs**

Sounds good, I like a fan per light too. Right now I have 6 on my 8k because I don't have anywhere else to put more, lol 16" fans are fine, use wall mount fans where you can, stand or ceiling fans for anything else.

Room with have a can150 with a 12" max fan setup just to scrub and circulate the room. I think I would place it at the end cap of the two back to back racks in the center of the room.

I had a can150 on a 3kw grow and it was only sufficient until halfway through flower. On a 6K you'll need two 100's with ten inch fans, on an 8k 2Xcan150 and 2X12" vortex.

**Not sure were to mount the co2 generator though?**

Anywhere you can get gas to it easily, and not right in front of a fan.

** With the above info what size mini split system would u suggest. I was thinking a 16k mr.slim would work.**

Only issue with the mini split is having a hvac guy coming over to flush the linesets. I am not worried about the initial setup but more worried if it breaks down and he needs to come back.

I remember Lazyman mentioning a a/c system were the line sets are precharged... ** any info on this would be great**

Plan for more light and a record heat wave, I think a 24K (2 ton) Excel Air XL would be good, precharged lines. Excelair.ca I think. Bghydro.com sells em.

I would really love some comments good and bad about the above plan.

You are on the right track yet again, at this rate you'll be teaching me how to grow in a couple months!

Good job man, I admire the thought you're putting into this. What's your biggest prior grow?

 

[mikeross]

^^^^^^^

So its fine to put my co2 gen in the corner of this room... I assume with all the fans the co2 will get moved around no matter were I decide to mount the co2 gen?

I actually have about 8 years experience helping other peoples grows, never had one of my own. Most of my experience was before I moved to the Ca about 2 years ago when I was still living in Coquitlam,BC, which is about 30mins from Vancouver,BC. Been around plenty of shows mainly helping friends with contruction and clipping.

I am currently into my 5th cycle doing it all by myself. I am running a 2400w aero/nft setup. Just sealed my room up 4 weeks ago and running co2. I have no doubt in my mind that this current grow will be my best yet so I am improving. After about a year of dialing in this grow its in cruise control. I harvest 18 plants every two weeks, 64 plants total in the room at all times. I clone in 2" net pots with neoprene collars in a homeade aero cloner, once they root they go directly into one of my flowering units in the same 2" net pots I used in the cloner. I'm running Pure blend pro, liquid karma, sweet and calmag plus.

These are what my aero units look like. I have 4 of the aero units, each unit has a 600 over it, wish I went with 1000's though. These are old pics... They have different hoods and are all air cooled now. I made the units myself but copied the design entirely. The picture below is were is all started. Its a pic of the first unit I built and filled with plants. After that first run I built 3 more units and expanded the room.

Currently growing out some blackberry kush, white russian and ak47.
Blackberry kush @ 31 days

I also am helping a buddy with his first grow and surprisingly everything is running so nicely. Its a 4x8 table with 2 600's on a mover haha, seriously. Table is filled with 48 ak47 plants. Yielded 32 zips first run no BS with co2. This was my friends first run but he had me and another friend who has way more experience then me helping along the way. He's on his second run and I think he might do better yeild wise. There is no way he would be doing this well if it wasn't for my very experience friend... same guy I get all my cuts from.

Take care buddy, thanks for all the advise.

 

[dmt]

welcome to the 4th dimension in growing haha. i switched over a lil while ago and have never had better results in over all yield and quality.

your space looks dope man, u can kill it with those light movers. ive never done shelves, just vscrog trees. a bit more veg time, but less babies (my script) and drippers etc.

all i can say is maybe the aisles could close in a bit if the lights are moving. more intense light??

dont know how much veg u plan?

for co2, i will genereally run 2 ducts off the burner, 1 into my a/c for extreme room coverage, and one acroos the room behind another big fan. 2 lil fans are on the ground facing up blowing cooler air and fallen gas right under the leaves. did the all in my very first sealed room 6 years ago, never looked back.

good luck, hope it helps, d

 

[choch]

Why not go with something like this instead and use the full 360 degrees of the bare bulb? With your current design idea you will have plants in the corners that will be crowding each other to get light, and there are sides of the bulbs that are just directing light at each other instead of at more plants.

Imo the most efficient use of the bulb is with the plants in a circle around the bulb, keeping the entire canopy as close to the same distance from the string of bulbs as possible. I'd suggest a pair of true vert units harvesting one each month.

If you wanted you could still use a light mover between them with each string of lights connected through a pulley to the same mover. When the mover goes in one direction it raises one string of lights and lowers the other, then it reverses and moves them the other way.

 

[Sam the Caveman]

Hey mike, If you have those hanging bulbs moving back and forth over the fans, their going to be swinging around like a trapeze artist.

You could try hanging one fan with the bulbs at the bottom blowing up, this way the fan will be moving with the bulbs, but it might get squirrely at the ends when it stops and turn into a light bulb weed eater. Unless you hang the bulbs and fan with some of those long screws, so it will be a rigid structure moving instead of dangling wire.

I like the light mover idea, its a sure winner. I've never heard of people who bought one and didn't like it.

 

[Bodhi Roach]

hi mike,

if you are planning to run 2 seperate side by side 3k setups, and share equipment ie, co2, a/c , fans between the 2, plan very well in regards to sealing off the light between the 2 for your veg period, otherwise you will have light leaking to the flowering side for 6-12 hours and that will EFF up your blooming period big time

but then , you may have a seperate room for vegging?
that would be sweet

 

[mikeross]

Wow busy day today, happy to see some brainstorming on the light mover design. I love all the feedback... some very good suggestions have been posted.

Gonna eat some dinner and reply back to soon... peace

 

[mikeross]

welcome to the 4th dimension in growing haha. i switched over a lil while ago and have never had better results in over all yield and quality.

your space looks dope man, u can kill it with those light movers. ive never done shelves, just vscrog trees. a bit more veg time, but less babies (my script) and drippers etc.

all i can say is maybe the aisles could close in a bit if the lights are moving. more intense light??

dont know how much veg u plan?

for co2, i will genereally run 2 ducts off the burner, 1 into my a/c for extreme room coverage, and one acroos the room behind another big fan. 2 lil fans are on the ground facing up blowing cooler air and fallen gas right under the leaves. did the all in my very first sealed room 6 years ago, never looked back.

good luck, hope it helps, d

Yes, after more research on the matter I have decided to plan the room to have the plants about 24" from the light.

I plan to harvest 1 side of the room each month so I would probably be vegging the plants for about 1 months in a separate veg room.

I didn't know you can hook up ducting to a co2 generator much less duct the co2 into your a/c system... am I understanding you right? I know its asking a lot but any chance you have a photo of your co2 system and how you duct it into the a/c system?

thanks

 

[mikeross]

Hey mike, If you have those hanging bulbs moving back and forth over the fans, their going to be swinging around like a trapeze artist.

You could try hanging one fan with the bulbs at the bottom blowing up, this way the fan will be moving with the bulbs, but it might get squirrely at the ends when it stops and turn into a light bulb weed eater. Unless you hang the bulbs and fan with some of those long screws, so it will be a rigid structure moving instead of dangling wire.

I like the light mover idea, its a sure winner. I've never heard of people who bought one and didn't like it.

That actually sounds like a good idea. I have honestly never seen anyone try it in all the research I have done thus far.

**I would need to locate a fan that is somewhat light weight. I wonder if I could place the string of lights in a cooltube with a 6" vortex connected to the bottom of the cool tube, pushing air upwards. The top of the cool tube would be open to the air will just escape out and back into the room.

I plan to run the slowest light rail 3.5 motor they offer. I don't think this will sway back and forth at all really when the motor stops at the end of its run... the 3 rpm motor moves pretty slowly.

I plan to secure 4" eye hooks on either wide of each cooltube, 6 eye hooks total per 3k lights. I would then sting some metal chains connecting to each eye hook on their way up the motor of the light mover. The metal chains would be secured to 2 4" eye hooks on the light rail motor. I am not sure how I would secure a 6" fan to the bottom of the cooltube but I am sure I can rig somthing up.

The light rail 3.5 can handle 33lbs. Not sure how much everything will eight but that might be strong enough... if not the LR5 can carry 90lbs, also comes with a slow moving 4rpm mover which is also a good rpm for this setup.

 

[mikeross]

hi mike,

if you are planning to run 2 seperate side by side 3k setups, and share equipment ie, co2, a/c , fans between the 2, plan very well in regards to sealing off the light between the 2 for your veg period, otherwise you will have light leaking to the flowering side for 6-12 hours and that will EFF up your blooming period big time

but then , you may have a seperate room for vegging?
that would be sweet

I will have a separate room for veg and mothers. I know I am going to do 1 month veg and seriously considering 1
2-gallon pot per linear footage.

I would not have any plants in the corners. I figured I would run a total of 138 plants, 69 plants in each area.

I am sure I can get 2oz per plant from both my ak47 and white russian cuts. That would put total harvest of entire room a little over 17lbs. If I harvest one side per month that's 8.5lbs per month... not bad off 3k worth of lighting.

The above figures would achieve 1.28grams per watt... very nice IMO. I guess this is my goal to reach. I feel its very possible with the above setup.

Opinions on plant counts? With one month veg my plants would be about 18-20" tall going into flower. Once the room if up and running it won't take much to figure out optimal veg times and plant heights.