4800 watt ebb & flood questions... need help

mikeross · Sep 30, 2009

I am planning to setup a perpetual setup. I wanted to run 2x600’s on a light rail 3.5, over a 4x8 ebb and flood table… I was planning to run 4 tables in my flower room in hopes to have a harvest every 2 weeks. My questions are as followed…

I got my idea to run a 2-600 on a mover from member stoney419. He seems to be getting over 3lbs from a 4x8 table running many many plants. I don’t want to run my plant numbers high but would still like to yield at least 2+lbs from each table. How many plants would you suggest I run in a scrog setup to achieve my yield goals?

Would you suggest just going with 3x6 tables and forgetting the light mover? Stoney419 was getting amazing yields, but is this mainly because he was using over 120 plants in a SOG setup?

I was thinking of 32 plants per 4x8 table, in 6x6 square pots filled with 100% coco. Does the plant numbers sound about right in your opinion for a nice scrog in a 4x8 tray? This will be my first time using anything other than soil as a medium.. Would you suggest Hydroton over coco in this setup?

I have never setup a perpetual setup before thus never needing to setup a veg room. I used the same room for veg and flower in my last grow. I wanted to know how you would setup a veg room to support my flower room. If I plan to harvest a table every two weeks I assume I would need to veg a table with 32+ plants for 2 weeks right? Is 2 weeks enough veg time to get some height on the clones? What type of lighting would I need to support 32 plants in veg… would a 600hps be enough? I figured I could grab a 3x3 tray and fit 32+ 6x6 pots and do a flood and drain setup all under 1-600 hps.

Any insight to the above questions are much appreciated,

Peace… :joint:

p1ninja · Sep 30, 2009

mikeross said:
I am planning to setup a perpetual setup. I wanted to run 2x600’s on a light rail 3.5, over a 4x8 ebb and flood table… I was planning to run 4 tables in my flower room in hopes to have a harvest every 2 weeks. My questions are as followed…

I got my idea to run a 2-600 on a mover from member stoney419. He seems to be getting over 3lbs from a 4x8 table running many many plants. I don’t want to run my plant numbers high but would still like to yield at least 2+lbs from each table. How many plants would you suggest I run in a scrog setup to achieve my yield goals?

Would you suggest just going with 3x6 tables and forgetting the light mover? Stoney419 was getting amazing yields, but is this mainly because he was using over 120 plants in a SOG setup?

I was thinking of 32 plants per 4x8 table, in 6x6 square pots filled with 100% coco. Does the plant numbers sound about right in your opinion for a nice scrog in a 4x8 tray? This will be my first time using anything other than soil as a medium.. Would you suggest Hydroton over coco in this setup?

I have never setup a perpetual setup before thus never needing to setup a veg room. I used the same room for veg and flower in my last grow. I wanted to know how you would setup a veg room to support my flower room. If I plan to harvest a table every two weeks I assume I would need to veg a table with 32+ plants for 2 weeks right? Is 2 weeks enough veg time to get some height on the clones? What type of lighting would I need to support 32 plants in veg… would a 600hps be enough? I figured I could grab a 3x3 tray and fit 32+ 6x6 pots and do a flood and drain setup all under 1-600 hps.

Any insight to the above questions are much appreciated,

Peace…

Dual air-cooled 600w lights on a light rail mover over a 3'x6' tray doesn't get much more optimal for lumens and light distribution. If you want to go with the larger 4'x8' tray, I would recommend adding a third 600w light for each tray and going without the movers. You can comfortably fit 18 of the 10" coco pots in a 3'x6' tray if your strain is not too bushy and vegged for too long. You should be able to pull 2oz per plant if you have your room dialed in. Following this theory, you could pull 2.25lbs every 2-3 weeks with 4 of the 3'x6' trays if you are running 7-9 week strains.

Depending on whether or not you are going to keep moms for your perpetual or if you are going to just clone your vegging plants that are going into flower, two or three 8-bulb T5 setups over 2'x4' trays is what I would use to support a perpetual harvest of this size. You can fit 24 of the 6" coco pots in a 2'x4' tray for veg. You can play with the numbers, but you get the idea...

:2cents:

,

Bababooey · Sep 30, 2009

This is what I would do:
4x8 tray with coco mats instead of individual pots (a coco mat is basically like sod, you roll it out on your tray). Would be much easier to setup than filling 32 individual pots with coco.
I would think a 1k on a light mover over each tray would be pretty effective also. Because it's on a light mover, you can keep it pretty close to the tops without fear of burning.
A two week veg, provided that the clones have no transplant shock and are able to start growing right away, should get your plants to at least a foot, maybe two feet depending on strain.
I think a general rule would be that 1/4 of your flower light would be sufficient for vegging. So if you're running 4K in flower, a 1K for veg should be sufficient.
With the mats, though, you would have trouble moving the trays from the veg room to the flower room unless they were on wheels.
Going with the pots means more work but at least you're able to move plants without moving the entire tray.
Going with hydroton means you can reuse your media but it's a pain cleaning large amounts of rocks. You can reuse coco but if the roots are extensive you'll recover less than 50% of the coco in the pots.
If you are able to setup a single 4K flower room make sure you get plenty of fresh air in there or a CO2 generator.
How many different strains will you be running? With 4 flowering trays you could run 4 different strains...

mikeross · Sep 30, 2009

I am pretty set on the 2-600's on a mover over a 4x8 tray. I have seen 3 members on this site pull 2+lbs easy off this setup... so its proven to work. I have read a couple people say they were somewhat disappointed with a 1k on a mover over a 4x8 table... over a 4x6 table would probably be better IMO.

I have never grown using a flood and drain setup before but most people tend to shy away from coco mats in F&D. I am pretty set on using 6" Botanicare containers... they are 6x6x8" tall.

I was set on using 100% coco but I really like the idea that hydroton can be reused. I don't mind the work involved in cleaning it considering I am planning a perpetual setup. I would only need to really clean out 32 6" pots of hydroton every two weeks... no a lot of work in my opinion. I am going to look into hydroton as well now and see if it meets the needs in my setup. When referring to the "needs in my setup" I am mainly concerned with transplanting and cloneing with hydroton.

If I were to use 100% coco I was planning to clone directly into the 6" pots and squeeze all the pots in a 3x3 F&D table and veg them for 2 weeks under a 600W hps. I don't think I would be able to do this with hydroton. I notice a lot of guys clone in rockwool cubes then transplant them over a pot filled with hydroton. I really want to stay away from rockwool... don't like it. If that is the only way to clone/veg with hydroton I am probably not going to use it. Again need to do a little more research on hydroton.

Again thanks guys for the help and suggestions... really appreciate it. I would love to post up a journal but this grow is not going to start for at least another two months. I am in the process of relocating from the westcoast over to the eastcoast. I am house shopping next month and hope to start my grow along with a detailed journal january of 2010.

mikeross · Sep 30, 2009

Bababooey said:
How many different strains will you be running? With 4 flowering trays you could run 4 different strains...

Right now I am pretty set on only running AK47 from serious seeds for a couple harvest. I also plan to buy some White Russian, POG, Wonder Diesel, LA Confidential and some Cheese.

Guess I am just trying to track down the best commercial strain with a nice balance of potency, bag appeal and yield.

CalcioErba2004 · Sep 30, 2009

mikeross said:
Right now I am pretty set on only running AK47 from serious seeds for a couple harvest. I also plan to buy some White Russian, POG, Wonder Diesel, LA Confidential and some Cheese.

Guess I am just trying to track down the best commercial strain with a nice balance of potency, bag appeal and yield.

If you want a commercial strain, instead of running AK47 look to another from Simon, Chronic. Heavy yield, decent stone and great bag appeal. :joint:

mikeross · Sep 30, 2009

CalcioErba2004 said:
If you want a commercial strain, instead of running AK47 look to another from Simon, Chronic. Heavy yield, decent stone and great bag appeal.

I have looked into Chronic from serious seeds and I have read many mixed reviews. Yield is a concern but isn't my #1 concern. I would gladly give up a little yield for potency. I have never heard anyone really rave about Chronic like I have about the ak47.

Bababooey · Oct 1, 2009

I could see why you want to go 2x600 instead of 1x1000; you would get 33% more lumens with only a 20% increase in watts.
With a big trash can and hose you could clean all of the hydroton easily in one go. Bleach or h2o2 recommended.
Oh, you don't want to have to transplant clones? You want to clone directly into the medium that they're going to flower in? I suppose that would remove an extra step, but most setups Ive seen use transplanted clones.

mikeross · Oct 1, 2009

The main reason I don't like using rockwool or rapid rooters is they hold a lot of water. I don't like the difference in moisture between the rockwool and hydroton.

I have been doing a lot of research though on hydroton and I am now somewhat 50/50 between using hydroton or 100% coco.

After doing a little more reading it seems people using hydroton with rockwool starters on top are top feeding until the roots make there was down into the hydroton. You then only flood the table high enough to flood all the hydroton but not touch the rockwool.

One of the reasons I will coco is many members are cloneing straight into coco without any issues.

The only issue I have with coco is cleaning it. Anyone have any experience reusing coco? How do you clean it?

Bababooey · Oct 1, 2009

Most info ive read on cleaning coco involved watering it with enzymes, like Hygrozyme or Sensizyme or Cannazyme. The enzymes help break down dead root matter. Supposedly you can use watered down pond enzymes to accomplish the same thing.

If your grow is good, the roots will be grown all throughout the coco, making it hard to separate coco without taking some root mass with it.

mikeross · Oct 1, 2009

Bababooey said:
If your grow is good, the roots will be grown all throughout the coco, making it hard to separate coco without taking some root mass with it.

I just saw a picture a member posted of a root mass taken out of a 5.5" square container of coco. you could barely even see the coco. I would assume if you have root growth that nice you would just throw the whole thing out. It would be a pain to shift though all that.

Bababooey · Oct 1, 2009

Yes, Ive seen pics like that too. Maybe you could hack at it a bit and get some coco to fall out, but I'd imagine most of it's trapped in the roots.

I was under the impression that with ebb and flow you could put a cube (rockwool, oasis, rapid rooter) with a clone in it right into the hydroton and it would grow, no top feeding necessary. The hydroton wicks up the moisture if the water level's high enough. I'd imagine you'd have to flood more often to make sure the roots stay moist until they start growing in earnest.

solarz · Oct 1, 2009

the way mentioned previously would also promote rapid root growing donward, in search of the moisture (of where it's been flooded), but as bababooey said, you'd probably just have to flood more, which could possibly give rise to those damned gnats/flies with coco.

p1ninja · Oct 1, 2009

Bababooey said:
This is what I would do:
4x8 tray with coco mats instead of individual pots (a coco mat is basically like sod, you roll it out on your tray). Would be much easier to setup than filling 32 individual pots with coco.
I would think a 1k on a light mover over each tray would be pretty effective also. Because it's on a light mover, you can keep it pretty close to the tops without fear of burning.
A two week veg, provided that the clones have no transplant shock and are able to start growing right away, should get your plants to at least a foot, maybe two feet depending on strain.
I think a general rule would be that 1/4 of your flower light would be sufficient for vegging. So if you're running 4K in flower, a 1K for veg should be sufficient.
With the mats, though, you would have trouble moving the trays from the veg room to the flower room unless they were on wheels.
Going with the pots means more work but at least you're able to move plants without moving the entire tray.
Going with hydroton means you can reuse your media but it's a pain cleaning large amounts of rocks. You can reuse coco but if the roots are extensive you'll recover less than 50% of the coco in the pots.
If you are able to setup a single 4K flower room make sure you get plenty of fresh air in there or a CO2 generator.
How many different strains will you be running? With 4 flowering trays you could run 4 different strains...

I cut coco mats to fit the 3'x6' trays and set my 10" coco pots on top of the mats so the root mass can fan out under the mat once it reaches the bottom of the 10" pot. I am not quite sure what you mean by running a tray with just a coco mat and no pots, can you please elaborate a little? Do you mean laying down coco mat and simply pooring your coco on top of the mat?

p1ninja · Oct 1, 2009

mikeross said:
I am pretty set on the 2-600's on a mover over a 4x8 tray. I have seen 3 members on this site pull 2+lbs easy off this setup... so its proven to work. I have read a couple people say they were somewhat disappointed with a 1k on a mover over a 4x8 table... over a 4x6 table would probably be better IMO.

I have never grown using a flood and drain setup before but most people tend to shy away from coco mats in F&D. I am pretty set on using 6" Botanicare containers... they are 6x6x8" tall.

I was set on using 100% coco but I really like the idea that hydroton can be reused. I don't mind the work involved in cleaning it considering I am planning a perpetual setup. I would only need to really clean out 32 6" pots of hydroton every two weeks... no a lot of work in my opinion. I am going to look into hydroton as well now and see if it meets the needs in my setup. When referring to the "needs in my setup" I am mainly concerned with transplanting and cloneing with hydroton.

If I were to use 100% coco I was planning to clone directly into the 6" pots and squeeze all the pots in a 3x3 F&D table and veg them for 2 weeks under a 600W hps. I don't think I would be able to do this with hydroton. I notice a lot of guys clone in rockwool cubes then transplant them over a pot filled with hydroton. I really want to stay away from rockwool... don't like it. If that is the only way to clone/veg with hydroton I am probably not going to use it. Again need to do a little more research on hydroton.

Again thanks guys for the help and suggestions... really appreciate it. I would love to post up a journal but this grow is not going to start for at least another two months. I am in the process of relocating from the westcoast over to the eastcoast. I am house shopping next month and hope to start my grow along with a detailed journal january of 2010.

Can you post some links to the threads of the 4'x8' tray with dual 600w on movers?

mikeross · Oct 2, 2009

Here is the thread... http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=77825&highlight=distance

Bababooey · Oct 2, 2009

Ninja: you know, upon further research, I might have to swallow my words re: the slabs.
I have Jorge Cervantes's 5th edition of the Medical Grower's Bible and in there he had a case study of a couple of Euro growers. Their first run involved soil in pots, their second run they did cocopeat slabs in trays. From the context, it seemed like they grew directly in the slabs, no pots or anything.
Then I saw that coco grow mats are sold in the US and I assumed they were mats that you could grow directly in. Upon further research, it turns out they're an inch or less thick, so probably not thick enough to actually grow a decent sized plant(s).
I did a search for cocopeat slabs and found this site: http://www.cocopeat.com.au/using/hydroslabs.asp
It seems like the 'slab' is actually a very long growbag filled with coco. So I suppose you could line 3 or 4 of them in a tray and that would replace all the pots one would normally use. I don't know if you can find anything like that in the US though...

Sorry to hijack your thread, Mike.
BTW, that's an amazing grow by Stoney419.

mikeross · Oct 2, 2009

Bababooey said:
Sorry to hijack your thread, Mike.
BTW, that's an amazing grow by Stoney419.

no worries buddy, you've been a great help.

yeah stoneys thread rocks. I was planning to do a 6000 watt setup. 2-1000 over each 4x8 table until I saw stoneys thread. I figured with stoneys setup I could run 1200watts less and run an extra 4x8 table. I have no experience with light movers though. I did some research on them and the use and install or them seems pretty stright forward.

I plan to setup my 2-600's in such a way that the mover would only have to move 12" in either direction... Pausing on either end for about 45seconds. There was another member with an exact setup to stoneys except he used a scrog method with 32 plants per table. He was yeilding 2.5lbs min each round and I believe his biggest yeild was just shy of 3lbs. Extremely nice for only 1200 watts. He was growing joey seeds ak99 and the buds looked really nice and dense for only 600's+mover.

Bababooey · Oct 2, 2009

Thanks for the compliment. I really dont give advice usually but I saw your thread and if i had a whole house to myself i too would do a 4-5Kwatt grow.
:rasta:

So naturally I've had thoughts about what I would do so i decided to share them with you.
But now you've influenced my plans, probably for the better. I was planning on 1K over each table on a mover but 2x600's sounds better. Although you'll have double the amount of equipment (twice as many ballasts, hoods, ducts, bulbs, etc) the increase in yield should be worth it.
Yeah, the light movers dont sound overly complicated, so long as its preassembled and all you gotta do is drill it to some studs. Definitely a must if you want to maximize your light.
3 elbows per 1200 watts is over a gram a watt. That's 1 - 1.5 elbows a week on average. Heady stuff.

W.P. · Oct 2, 2009

You will love the hydroton. Washing it No. Lol. Once you get a system down it's not so bad, though. When using this type of system use an areo style cloner spraying directly on stem (soon to be root area) and you'll have no medium(to mess with at all) to root & veg in !!! (easiest way to clone ever.) Then transfer to pots with giant root mass :yoinks:

, add hydroton, grow.

Very easy.

Any ??'s :2cents:

4800 watt ebb & flood questions... need help

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