hydro teas

[coconaut]

You guys are completely missing MM's point altogether. In an organic system what feeds the plant? I'll give you a hint, it's already been mentioned in the thread. If you can figure that out, you'll understand why he said that.

Why are you being condescending? If I already knew everything there was to know I wouldn't be wasting my time in this thread. If you have something to say, say it. Like instead of saying "it's already been mentioned in the thread", why don't you just say what it is. So we're on the same page, your games are not appreciated.
And yes, this is all very much word play. Would it make you's happier if I said I'll use actual real compost in my setup?
But how do I know if I have the right compost? There are many brands on the market. What do you guys use? I'm sure the composition of compost varies brand to brand, maybe even batch to batch...
could I add a little guano to my compost?

 

[osirica420]

since you mirco men know your beasties maybe you can help me out with my little problem..

I went thru veg not checking the ph and it seemed to stabilize itself not one single issue very fast growth...

Soon as i switched to high P guano after 4-5 days the tea goes down to 4.7 not sure why this is happening..
Is this the bacteria creating phosphoric acid not sure but i been changing it every 5 days since this has started happening because they both started yellowing. It seems a bit more in control now that change the water but i need to figure a way to stabilize this ph without chems...

imma try lightening up on the P maybe will try 1.5 - 2 - 4 from 2 - 5 - 5 ..
these are rough estimates as with OG stuff you really dont know til you have your bottle tested..

 

[CT Guy]

Why are you being condescending? If I already knew everything there was to know I wouldn't be wasting my time in this thread. If you have something to say, say it. Like instead of saying "it's already been mentioned in the thread", why don't you just say what it is. So we're on the same page, your games are not appreciated.
And yes, this is all very much word play. Would it make you's happier if I said I'll use actual real compost in my setup?
But how do I know if I have the right compost? There are many brands on the market. What do you guys use? I'm sure the composition of compost varies brand to brand, maybe even batch to batch...
could I add a little guano to my compost?

Coconaut,

I apologize if it came across condescending, I guess I was a bit frustrated. This is an area I've spent the last 5 years of my life studying and researching as a full-time job. When people start labeling things "aerated compost tea" that are not, it detracts from those of us in the industry that are already struggling to get scientific validation for what we do. People are constantly telling me things like "compost tea doesn't work" when in fact they weren't making it properly, or stuff like "yeah, I make compost tea, I throw my horse manure in a barrel and leave it for 2 weeks, man it stinks!"

I hate to be a stickler on this, but I think terminology in important in this instance as it allows all of to be on the same page in regards to a discussion.]

As for compost, there is no "right" compost. As long as it's biologically active and pathogen free then it's good to use. I use a combination of 3 composts usually, an EWC that uses no manure inputs, Alaska Humus from Alaska, and a fungal compost that we make ourselves. Any of those 3 could make a perfectly good tea in and of themselves, but since we're trying to maximize biological diversity this is a way of making sure all the organisms we want are present. Heck, you could even throw a good handful of forest litter in your brewer.

Now, MM seems to think he could brew the tea in his resevoir. I'm not convinced, but he would also be incorporating different technology and using a microscope and DO meter to ensure he's getting aerobic microbes. I wouldn't attempt it without these tools.

You can add guano to your compost, but I think guano would best be incorporated as a solube nutrient, meaning something that is added to water and mixed (comparable to seaweed, humic acid, or fish). You'll still get the P that you want and other benefits. The brewing cycle in teas is really to grow/replicate the microbes. This is best done using compost. You could put a bit of guano in with your compost without any harm, provided you maintain the aeration levels MM listed above.

 

[vonforne]

I'm glad that your plants are healthy....congratulations! However, I don't really accept that as evidence that you can properly make ACT in your resevoir.

How do you get sufficient aeration? Can you be certain there are no dead spots in the water where the compost would collect and go anaerobic? How are you stripping the microbes off of the soil particulate? And most importantly, how do you address cleaning or the issue of bio-film buildup?

I would have to agree with CT on this one. You could make an ACT but the clean up would take up to much of your time. And not to mention the emitters clogging......etc.

V

 

[vonforne]

Why are you being condescending? If I already knew everything there was to know I wouldn't be wasting my time in this thread. If you have something to say, say it. Like instead of saying "it's already been mentioned in the thread", why don't you just say what it is. So we're on the same page, your games are not appreciated.
And yes, this is all very much word play. Would it make you's happier if I said I'll use actual real compost in my setup?
But how do I know if I have the right compost? There are many brands on the market. What do you guys use? I'm sure the composition of compost varies brand to brand, maybe even batch to batch...
could I add a little guano to my compost?

I do not think he was being condescending. Just politely saying he assumed that you have retained all of the information in previous posts before replying.

Composts do vary from region to region and manufacturer to manufacturer. Your best bet is a local source or University.

V

 

[osirica420]

i don't find my setup too messy at all...

my drippers or air stones never clogged either... not even a smell..

dont knock it til you try it... have you?

way nastier to wash a sink full of dishes then change 3, 7 gallon manured reserviors i do this ever 5 days now... that does not smell i will say it again

once i figure out how to stabilize ph in flower i will only change every 2 weeks cycle 36hrs of plain water in..

 

[vonforne]

CT Guy - It sounds like you think you know what you're talking about, but I find no logic in your statements. What is .08cfm/gal? Other than 0.08 cubic feet per minute per gallon. Where is that number coming from? What does bubbling at a rate of 0.08cfm/gal do?
I have a big problem with the things you claim because these things obviously are not true, I've kept aquarium fish for years, the principals are all the same, just instead of microscopic organisms eating fish poop they're eating bat poop and worm poop. And why would aerobic bacteria need more dissolved O2 than fish? Fish swim, have more biomass, therefor need more oxygen to survive. And the bacteria and fish coexist, using the same oxygen supply. I'm certainly no scientist though, these are all just simple observations made without a microscope.

I think CT needs an Intro...........

CTguy.......CompostTeaGuy.

This man is working in the compost tea industry. >He also works with Microbeman of Micro Organics.

http://www.microbeorganics.com/

He knows what he is talking about. He is just stating the most effective way to produce the most components of the soil food web.

Guanos are considered a Manure tea. There is nothing wrong with using them it is just that they are not ACT. That´s all.

What does bubbling at a rate of 0.08cfm/gal do?

I helps separate the microbes from the organic material.

Where is that number coming from?

Dr, Elain Ingham.......Soil Food Web Inc.

http://www.soilfoodweb.com/sfi_approach1.html

I have a big problem with the things you claim because these things obviously are not true

I consider them to be true. What specifically are you referring?

V

 

[vonforne]

i don't find my setup too messy at all...

my drippers or air stones never clogged either... not even a smell..

dont knock it til you try it... have you?

I have. That is why I know it. I tried a recirculating system. I tried a direct delivery system. The only one that really worked was the saturation without emitters.

If you have no bio film then most likely you have very low microbial activity. Or limited.

And yes guys Microbeman is know as the `Resident Madman` but he means well. He is very advance in the microbe area and he knows his shit.

And to all could we please keep this under control and on subject with out any animosities?

Fight Club rules.

V

 

[osirica420]

well i never ran into any of the problems you have had with the similar setup...

If my microbial activity is so low then why are my buds so fat...
these are in week 5.. no chemicals at ALL just guano, seaweed, and sea minerals.. in a waterfarm like dwc

once i figure out my ph problem this is a pretty solid method..

 

[vonforne]

Yes I do not doubt that. You are feeding the plant. It works great. I did it for years.

I think the point has drifted. The separation being is that with microbes and organic matter we are feeding the soil and the soil feeds the plant.

With organic hydro you would have a great benefit with an increased microbial activity. >I do not disagree with the fact that you do not have activity but just in what volume.

Hell I am growing in 100 liter tubs now trying to make a living entity. So, I feed the soil micro organisms.

And BTW I used to brew up guanos, EWC, Kelp meal and molasses in a 44 gallon trash can and circulate the water with fish tank Power head and think I had an ACT going. It was a manure tea and it worked great. But is was not an ACT.

V

 

[vonforne]

I'm still looking for the 'microbial nutrient cycling' forum

That would be Organic Soil forum......want me to save you a seat?

It is a very interesting class to say the least.

V

 

[Microbeman]

Thanks for the even headedness Von. You are a good man. I know I let my goat get got.

The reason why I would use a top feed vertical system is to avoid the clogging issue. I had set ups before with half inch lines and valves emptying into the top of 4 inch sewer pipe filled with clay pellets and Wyes evenly spaced down each column with a plant in each Wye all going into a 4 inch sewer returning to the resevoir. There were about 12 columns in a circle with 3 1000 watt hps lamps vertically aligned in the middle. This was sort of a hydro version of my vertical soil set up and my first attempt at hydro. [basically a home made cage] First I used soluble ferts to get the hang of it and was just beginning to try compost teas poured into the resevoir when my whole operation was put on hold by the men in black. Therefore I never really got to try designing the resevoir as my continuous brewer which was something I concluded was a good idea with wide open half inch valves and compost in mesh bags. I would try going from beginning to end without cleaning. I would introduce endomycorrhizal spores at the cutting/seed stage. I would try adding EM fermentations periodically to deal with (too much) biofilm and algae. If I noticed plants suffering from a low pH I would attempt to increase bacteria. If the pH became too alkaline I'd attempt to increase fungal volume of the tea/resevoir. I sure wish I could try it out.

If your pH is running acidic and you know it is causing problems with your plants then try increasing the bacterial content by adding a little black strap molasses. Don't forget your plants can yellow naturally as the flowers ripen or if you have a nitrogen lock up from using too much non-composted organic matter or from a lack of protozoa.

 

[osirica420]

Well i don't think i am the first to misinterpret the collective definition for ACT.
I gave it my own meaning as i do alot to most things, I do understand you guys better now though...

I took your advice Mircobeman, just bought some catalyst stuff from earth juice imma give this stuff a try says its for microbes... its worth a shot

 

[grapeman]

well after reading the back and forth what I can take from here is that I can make better tea (more organisms/oz of tea) by using more air. Converting .08cfm to GPH of air is a pain in the ass (most air pumps we use in our buckets are rated at GPH). From what I can determine is that I multiply .08 (cfm) by 7.48 to get Gallons per Minute (GPM). Then I multiply that by 60 to get Gallons per Hour. Most of us gardeners use pumps in our buckets that are rated by "gallons per hour".

So - for you above experts out there .08 x 7.48 =.5984 GPM. X 60 =35.9 GPH of air for a 1 gallon EWC mix. CORRECT???? X 5 (for a 5 gal bucket mix) =179.52 GPH of air to properly aerate a 5 gallon EWC tea mix. CORRECT????

Since this was a Hydro Tea thread, I just thought I'd ask if my math is correct so I may properly brew the most potent tea I can by properly aerating it. I don't know which one of you guys has a bigger dick but maybe one of you guys will kindly check my math.

 

[ScrubNinja]

Grapeman, none of my 3 pumps are rated in gph. All cfm or lpm. Go here to convert. You are CORRECT!!!! according to that.

Also just want to say I'm glad this got back on track. Microbeman and CTguy's posts on the soil forum have helped me a lot as a noob to organics and I've found they do know what they're talking about, or at least, things haven't been a complete disaster when I followed their advice. Peace.

 

[coconaut]

When people start labeling things "aerated compost tea" that are not, it detracts from those of us in the industry that are already struggling to get scientific validation for what we do. People are constantly telling me things like "compost tea doesn't work" when in fact they weren't making it properly, or stuff like "yeah, I make compost tea, I throw my horse manure in a barrel and leave it for 2 weeks, man it stinks!"

CT Guy, I'm sorry if in anyway you think I was trying to undermine the work that you do, I assure you, that was not my intent. If you refer back to my very first post, I make no claim to be brewing ACT. I simply proposed that I might have a similar system.
It is now clear to me that the goal of ACT vs the goal of my system is different.
At no time have I made a statement suggesting 'compost tea doesn't work'. I merely described my own system, which I felt was met with much criticism:

I can pretty much guarantee that you're not going to have sufficient aeration to maintain appropriate dissolved oxygen levels.

I think guano would best be incorporated as a solube nutrient, meaning something that is added to water and mixed (comparable to seaweed, humic acid, or fish).

Let's drop the guano, because I think we have different views as to if it's ready to use or needs to be broken down first by microbes.
Seaweed or kelp is a better example. In my custom system. I do not want to pay for a small bottle of "liquid seaweed extract" which is easily water soluble. I would rather go to the Asian market and buy kelp, in it's still green leafy form.
The nutrients from the kelp are not in a readily usable form. The kelp is not water soluble. It needs to be broken down by microbes or whatever before it's usable nutrients for the plant.
Again the goal of my system is to break down organics in to usable NPK. Not add soluble NPK.

I have a big problem with the things you claim because these things obviously are not true

I consider them to be true. What specifically are you referring?

I believe I was referring to;

I can pretty much guarantee that you're not going to have sufficient aeration to maintain appropriate dissolved oxygen levels.

I evaluated this statement as untrue, as it pertains to my system. In a following post I tried to give examples of why I thought this statement is untrue.

you must consider that varying amounts of compost will require varying amounts of dO2.
1 gram of compost in 5 gallons of water isn't going to need 5mg/L of dissolved O2.
While 1000 grams of compost in 5 gallons of water may.

Keep in mind, while i mention compost, I'm still referring to my own system. Whatever you want to call it. My process of changing organic material into usable NPK.




I'm still going to wage my little war against CFM/gallon:
For all of these lab tests that were done, at what elevation above sea level where these tests performed? 0.08 CFM/gal is different at sea level than it is at 8000ft above sea level. Air is far less dense at higher elevations.

 

[grapeman]

Grapeman, none of my 3 pumps are rated in gph. All cfm or lpm. Go here to convert. You are CORRECT!!!! according to that.

Also just want to say I'm glad this got back on track. Microbeman and CTguy's posts on the soil forum have helped me a lot as a noob to organics and I've found they do know what they're talking about, or at least, things haven't been a complete disaster when I followed their advice. Peace.

Interesting Scrub. I use 8 General Hydroponics Bluestone 4 port dual diaphragm air pumps. All are rated by GPH.

TY for checking my math. I have been using a much smaller spare air pump to brew tea once a week. The tea has definitely had a positive effect, but according to the experts knowledge of a min of .05 to a full on .08 cfm, I will need to use a bigger air pump in my 5 gal brew. I gots plenty of extras.

 

[Microbeman]

1 gallon/hour [US] = 0.002 228 009 227 1 cubic foot/minute

http://www.onlineconversion.com/flow_rate_volume.htm

 

[Microbeman]

Well i don't think i am the first to misinterpret the collective definition for ACT.
I gave it my own meaning as i do alot to most things, I do understand you guys better now though...

I took your advice Mircobeman, just bought some catalyst stuff from earth juice imma give this stuff a try says its for microbes... its worth a shot

Just as long as you know I did not recommend any products. (except EM)

 

[vonforne]

Coconut

I like te system you are trying to or have made. My buddie Jaykush has been working on a Bio-Cultivator for a while. He also uses different types of plant matter as far as Stinging Nettles and things.

Look him up I am sure you could trade some great info.


grapeman

The tea has definitely had a positive effect, but according to the experts knowledge of a min of .05 to a full on .08 cfm, I will need to use a bigger air pump in my 5 gal brew. I gots plenty of extras.

That is just a minimum. I still use a smaller pump so I just use less to make the tea and with doing that it helps bring me closer to the minimum requirements for maximum output.

V